Satans Fall

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Alethos

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Tyre the Guardian Cherub over Israel

The prophetic utterances against Ammon, Moab, Edom and the Philistines were comparatively short compared to Tyre. In Ezekiel 26 ,27, 28 Tyre takes up three chapters and its place in History is one of great significance. Very few Nations can lay claim to the privileged position and because of her favoured status among the nations she was given greater punishment. Luke 12:48?

There is a great deal written about the relationship between Tyre and Israel but sadly Tyre was inconsistent in how she dealt with Israel and as such a severe message would come upon Tyre for her many sins.

On the front page of this forum Hammerstone places this message in relation to the recent death of Osama:

“When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers”.

And Robbie:

“The celebration of death is the one party I don't want an invitation to”.

Here is what the King of Tyre’s message to Israel when she was defeated; knowing Tyre would profit from Israel’s demise.

'Aha, the gate of the peoples (Israel) is broken; it has swung open to me (King of Tyre). I (King) shall be replenished, now that she (Israel) is laid waste,'

We find within the record that Tyre was playing the role of the "guardian Cherubim", the King of Tyre was using Israel's money and power to protect the Jews and as a result Tyre prospered.

However, when Tyre no longer had use for Israel she turned swiftly against Gods People and as a result of her actions, judgment from God was imminent.

Tyre rejoiced in the adversity of Israel, and believed these events could only be beneficial in her plight to become the greatest trading nation in the entire world.

Background:

We find at this time the reformation of Josiah had reached far north (2 Ki 23:19), destroying the gods of the Phoenicians, and drawing people to the worship of Yahweh in the temple. Jerusalem became the gate to the nations (Eze 26:2), but later the Tyrians became very proud (Ezek 28:2; Isa 23:9), and like many Nations seen today they eventually become anti-Semitism (Psa 83:6,7). i.e. We will push them into the sea etc.

To emphasis how great and powerful this city of Tyre was in the eyes of the World, it took Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon 13 years' of siege, but he never defeated this little Island!!! (Josephus)

The Prophecy was eventually fulfilled by the man Alexander the Great approx 240 years later. 332 BC And this was no easy defeat!

Overview of Chapters:

Ezek 26 is the fall of Tyre

Ezek 27 is the Lamentation of Tyre

Ezek 28 1-19 is the pending doom and total destruction of Tyre.

The context of these chapters is vital in gaining a correct Bible understanding of not only Ezek 28 but the two chapters proceeding as they set the scene for why God gave that colourful and vibrant discritpion of the Guardian Cherub.

Alethos
 

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rjp, I would have thought that you understood how God was giving a parable in that Isaiah 14 example about Satan.



Our Lord Jesus gave a parable about the sower sowing seed. The plant seed object is real, so are the wayside, thorns, and stones in the soil He mentioned. But is that all He was talking about, just agriculture of sowing plant seed? No, for He was giving a parable.


The interpretation of the Isaiah passage I wrote was obtained from several commentaries. They are uniform in their interpretation of the passage. When I am in doubt about the meaning of scripture or when I'm just doing a study I rely upon these scholarly works to provide a foundation for the development of an assertion.

I do not by this impugn your response sir, but I do intend to defend my own position including the sources of my interpretation. They are what they are and I write what I write based upon the work and consideration of my betters.

Although some may deny the validity of that method, I have found through the years that it provides the best and clearest understanding.

My point:
Studies regarding the origins of the devil may be walking on thin ice when using this and other passages as proof of origins, methods or motives especially when the Biblical passages are clearly intended to be taken literally by the writers.
 

tomwebster

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Setting the context of Ezek 28

The King of Tyre dwelt on an island which was likened to a fortress (inaccessible by land and withstood numerous attacks on every side) He mocked at the threat of attack as his Island was long known for its defensive capabilities.

It is profitable to read the history of Tyre in conjunction with this prophecy against its King.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

Note: 332 BC Alexander the great’s notable siege lasting 7 months against Tyre fulfilled Bible Prophecy beautifully. (but that’s another lesson)

He became a proud man wise in his own eyes and foolish before God. Clearly from verse Ezek 28:2 the king had aspired equality with God.

Wise?

From that moment he followed the way of Adam in committing sin and was in like manner ejected from the Garden of Eden (Israel). However, he was warned that he is but Adam! (Ezek 28:2) so his fate would be that of Adam.

The king of Tyre thought in his mind he was the personification of wisdom and beauty (like Adam). Ezek 28:4-12!

The King believed in his own mind he was divine and glorious (Eze 28:2).

The King believed divine wisdom was his alone Ezek 28:3

But Adam was taught by the true Cherub at the gates of the Garden (not a fake one here) Ezek 29:14. And so in like manner the King would be ejected from the Garden, wherein he had temporary access. So the King of Tyre was taken down from his lofty position in the political heavens because of his great sin before Yahweh (Eze 26:2).

This Lamentation is one of the great parables of life for those who dare enter His sanctuary. This whole chapter in many ways is patterned on the events in the Garden. Their sin is used figuratively speaking towards the King of Trye, He had been in Eden (Israel) but chose to sin within its borders /hedge and so does everyone who is allowed access into the divine sanctuary.

But his sin had come up before God. And all who commit such sins cannot hide from God, especially if you are within his sanctuary! (Eze 31:8).

So does God act upon sin? Yes, and very quickly!

“So the voice of the prophet sounded forth in judgement against the King of Tyre.

The breakup of the chapter is as follows:

(1) The pride of the king of Tyre: Ezek 28:1-10.

(2) The lamentation and elergy over the king of Tyre: Ezek 28:11-19.

(3) The doom of Zidon: Ezek 28:20-23.

(4) The removal of these 'briers' from Israel: Ezek 28:24-26.

And concludes with a lamentation over Trye.


So "truth" are you going to give the author credit for his writing or are we to try believing you wrote it.
 

veteran

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The interpretation of the Isaiah passage I wrote was obtained from several commentaries. They are uniform in their interpretation of the passage. When I am in doubt about the meaning of scripture or when I'm just doing a study I rely upon these scholarly works to provide a foundation for the development of an assertion.

I do not by this impugn your response sir, but I do intend to defend my own position including the sources of my interpretation. They are what they are and I write what I write based upon the work and consideration of my betters.

Although some may deny the validity of that method, I have found through the years that it provides the best and clearest understanding.
My point:
Studies regarding the origins of the devil may be walking on thin ice when using this and other passages as proof of origins, methods or motives especially when the Biblical passages are clearly intended to be taken literally by the writers.




I understand you, but if you keep looking, you'll find Bible commentators that saw it as 'irony' (i.e., comparison) also to someone other than the literal king of Tyre. Some scholars say Adam because of the Eden reference, but Adam was no anointed cherub. A cherub is a heavenly being, not a flesh being like Adam was. And God did not bring a fire in the midst of Adam to destroy him with others seeing it.


 

veteran

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Question 1

Ezek 28:13Thou (prince of Tyre) hast been in Eden* the garden of God (symbol of Israel) ; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

You may want to study the stones to appreciate their significance here.

Stones are found in the Breast Plate of the Hign Priest, they are highly symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel. Veteran, if you disagree here you are most certainly in error.


Your first error: the ligure, amethyst, and agate per the priest's breastplate of Exo.28 are missing in the Ezek.28:13 Scripture. And only 9 stones are mentioned, not 12 per the REAL breastplate of Exo.28. God is symbolizing a fake in Ezek.28:13.


The connection between the Garden of God & The stones in the Breat Plate is equal to saying “King of Tyre, you have been in my land and amidst My People” The language is known to the Jews becuase they understood these symbols perfectly.

That doesn't explain how the king of Tyre could ever fit the Eden reference that goes along with the phrase "thou art the anointed cherub that covereth" of Ezek.28:14.


Eden the Garden of God – Is symbolic as God still views the territory and the people as his precious Garden, see future fulfillment Ezek 33. Styled the Garden restored – Prophecy below for your reference.

33Thus says the Lord God: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities I will [also] cause [Israel's] cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, that which had lain desolate in the sight of all who passed by. 35And they shall say, This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited. 36Then the nations that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it. Ezek 36:33-36


But where is God's Eden now, for that verse is about its return to this earth after Christ's future return? And the comparison is to the holy lands of promise about Eden. God's Eden is not being used as a figure for His people, but for the land when His Eden will return. I'll tell you where it is today. It's in the Heavenly where He is, and is still being guarded by the Cherubims He setup in Genesis 3 to guard the tree of life. Your attempt to point God's Eden anywhere on earth today fails.



Question 2
"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (Ezek 28:14).

The expression is a Divine viewpoint of the extend God had allowed him into Israel territory. God is using the symbol of the Cherub not as the King as an actual Angelic being but what the imagery of the Cherub in its function (the spreading its wings). Note the wings are not spread out in the Most Holy!!!! (another lesson here)

The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat. (Exod. 37:7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece. Exod 25:19.20. The King was given this privileged responsibility as a result of his relationship with Israel. In other words he cast his "wings" over Israel through trade. The word covereth the far reaching aspect of his influence in Israel.

Anointed = Approved of God

Cherub = Symbol of his wings

Covereth = Means a Hedge – This Cherub (King) had taken shelter within the “hedge” of Israel’s protection! A protection afforded them by Almighty God and no one else. It is he who protects and disciplines and none other. All symbols point to the King being in the midst of Gods People and Land.

How?

The King - Walking upon the Mountains of Israel – esp. His Holy Mountain

The King - Walking within the Stones of Fire – Tribes of Israel

The King - Walking within the Garden of God - Israel

Of course Ezek 28:15,16 revealed the King’s motives were sinful and he was taken out of Israel’s Hedge (borders) in a graphc fulfillment of Bible propechy which stands to this day.

He abused this exalted position by God that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre in (Ezek 28: 4, 5).

Ezek 28:12 shows us how wonderful a “lamentation” this is from the Divine Mind (God) of a man whose heart became evil in the midst of the stones of fire, mountain of the Lord, the hedge of Israel and so on.

Veteran, you need to enter the "symbols" to appreciate the Mind of God in relation to the King and also understand why God applied His judgments to the King of Tyre. Ezek 28:18

It would be disappointing if this colorful Divine language was lost on such an erroneous teaching as satanism.

Alethos


What you've done is used the words Eden and cherub to point to just about everything else with Israel except the Biblical descriptions of the words. Israel is not an anointed Cherub, nor Eden.

What you've also done is to get away from showing us how the king of Tyre was in God's Eden as an anointed cherub that covereth. Essentially, you're showing that you treat those descriptions in Ezek.28 God gave to the king of Tyre as symbolic for something else also, i.e., a parable about something deeper, having done the very thing you've accused me of doing by declaring how God is also pointing to Satan in those verses as that anointed cherub originally in His Eden.




Tyre the Guardian Cherub over Israel

The prophetic utterances against Ammon, Moab, Edom and the Philistines were comparatively short compared to Tyre. In Ezekiel 26 ,27, 28 Tyre takes up three chapters and its place in History is one of great significance. Very few Nations can lay claim to the privileged position and because of her favoured status among the nations she was given greater punishment. Luke 12:48?

There is a great deal written about the relationship between Tyre and Israel but sadly Tyre was inconsistent in how she dealt with Israel and as such a severe message would come upon Tyre for her many sins.

On the front page of this forum Hammerstone places this message in relation to the recent death of Osama:

“When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers”.

And Robbie:

“The celebration of death is the one party I don't want an invitation to”.

Here is what the King of Tyre’s message to Israel when she was defeated; knowing Tyre would profit from Israel’s demise.

'Aha, the gate of the peoples (Israel) is broken; it has swung open to me (King of Tyre). I (King) shall be replenished, now that she (Israel) is laid waste,'

We find within the record that Tyre was playing the role of the "guardian Cherubim", the King of Tyre was using Israel's money and power to protect the Jews and as a result Tyre prospered.

However, when Tyre no longer had use for Israel she turned swiftly against Gods People and as a result of her actions, judgment from God was imminent.

Tyre rejoiced in the adversity of Israel, and believed these events could only be beneficial in her plight to become the greatest trading nation in the entire world.

Background:

We find at this time the reformation of Josiah had reached far north (2 Ki 23:19), destroying the gods of the Phoenicians, and drawing people to the worship of Yahweh in the temple. Jerusalem became the gate to the nations (Eze 26:2), but later the Tyrians became very proud (Ezek 28:2; Isa 23:9), and like many Nations seen today they eventually become anti-Semitism (Psa 83:6,7). i.e. We will push them into the sea etc.

To emphasis how great and powerful this city of Tyre was in the eyes of the World, it took Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon 13 years' of siege, but he never defeated this little Island!!! (Josephus)

The Prophecy was eventually fulfilled by the man Alexander the Great approx 240 years later. 332 BC And this was no easy defeat!

Overview of Chapters:

Ezek 26 is the fall of Tyre

Ezek 27 is the Lamentation of Tyre

Ezek 28 1-19 is the pending doom and total destruction of Tyre.

The context of these chapters is vital in gaining a correct Bible understanding of not only Ezek 28 but the two chapters proceeding as they set the scene for why God gave that colourful and vibrant discritpion of the Guardian Cherub.

Alethos


Any Bible student that's done their homework knows God was speaking about Tyre in those Ezekiel chapters. That's not in question. The question is who else was He speaking about in comparison, specifically in Ezek.28?

Another example of this type language is with Isaiah 14 and the end of Isaiah 30 about the Assyrian. At the end of Isaiah 30 God said Tophet, referring to the future lake of fire event, has been of old ordained for the king. He uses the king of Assyria as a symbolic reference for who He is really talking about, i.e., Satan.

How do we know? Simple. WHO has ALREADY been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire? None except... Satan and the angels of Jude 1. Even the king of Assyria has not yet appeared before the Judgment Seat of Christ Jesus which is still future.
 

Alethos

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Your first error: the ligure, amethyst, and agate per the priest's breastplate of Exo.28 are missing in the Ezek.28:13 Scripture. And only 9 stones are mentioned, not 12 per the REAL breastplate of Exo.28. God is symbolizing a fake in Ezek.28:13.

That doesn't explain how the king of Tyre could ever fit the Eden reference that goes along with the phrase "thou art the anointed cherub that covereth" of Ezek.28:14.

[/b]
But where is God's Eden now, for that verse is about its return to this earth after Christ's future return? And the comparison is to the holy lands of promise about Eden. God's Eden is not being used as a figure for His people, but for the land when His Eden will return. I'll tell you where it is today. It's in the Heavenly where He is, and is still being guarded by the Cherubims He setup in Genesis 3 to guard the tree of life. Your attempt to point God's Eden anywhere on earth today fails.




What you've done is used the words Eden and cherub to point to just about everything else with Israel except the Biblical descriptions of the words. Israel is not an anointed Cherub, nor Eden.

What you've also done is to get away from showing us how the king of Tyre was in God's Eden as an anointed cherub that covereth. Essentially, you're showing that you treat those descriptions in Ezek.28 God gave to the king of Tyre as symbolic for something else also, i.e., a parable about something deeper, having done the very thing you've accused me of doing by declaring how God is also pointing to Satan in those verses as that anointed cherub originally in His Eden.

Any Bible student that's done their homework knows God was speaking about Tyre in those Ezekiel chapters. That's not in question. The question is who else was He speaking about in comparison, specifically in Ezek.28?

Another example of this type language is with Isaiah 14 and the end of Isaiah 30 about the Assyrian. At the end of Isaiah 30 God said Tophet, referring to the future lake of fire event, has been of old ordained for the king. He uses the king of Assyria as a symbolic reference for who He is really talking about, i.e., Satan.

How do we know? Simple. WHO has ALREADY been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire? None except... Satan and the angels of Jude 1. Even the king of Assyria has not yet appeared before the Judgment Seat of Christ Jesus which is still future.


Hi Veteran,

Below are all the references to the Garden in the Bible other than the beginning.

Gen 4:16: Here Cain left the presence of God which we take to be the area just east of the garden, where the "faces" or "presence" of the Cherubim in Gen 3:24; 4:14,16" and he journeyed to Nod, scripture is silent on its location.

Gen 13:10: "beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere, before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, as the garden of the Lord."

Isa 51:3: "For the Lord shall comfort Zion: He will comfort all her waste places; and He will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord."

This prophecy foresees a time when the areas immediately surrounding Zion will become like Eden. The key here is “once before”, they had been “like” the Garden of Eden, but because of sin they become barren, similar to before and after Sodom and Gomorrah.

Eze 28:13: "Thou (the king of Tyre – Ezek 28:12)

Currently under discussion.

“hast been in Eden the garden of God." Must parallel with Ezek 28:14: "Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God"? Are the "garden of God" and the "holy mountain of God" the same?

I personally believe so but I will not be dogmatic! (There is a number of views on the location of Eden, I like to place Eden on Jerusalem - but again its one of desire :) )

Eze 31:9,16,18; speaks to Assyria and Egypt, because of their military prowess into Palestine and Lebanon, these nations are symbolised as "trees" in Eden and the garden of the Lord.

Notice as we move into the Prophetical writings the Symbology becomes stronger and more frequent? As we find God making reference back to things already established long ago.

Eze 36:35: "And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited." Similar to Isa 51:3. Again prophecy pointing to the promised land being compared to Eden.

Joel 2:3: "Locusts" like a fire devour the "garden of Eden" -- ie, Israel!!!! NON NEGIOTABLE leaving her a "desolate wilderness".

The Joel reference cannot be argued against Israel!!! Its referring to Israel as the “garden of Eden” where we find devastation coming against the landscape in Joel 1:19,20. This is a very sad account of the riches of wealth during the the years of King Uzziah in 2 Chron 26:10, is now a vial and desolate place likened to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 13:10) This language is repeated of the last days “as it was in the days of Lot........so shall it be in Luke 17:28;29.

Now Veteran, it appears you have taken one of these references (Ezek 28) and applied an understanding, which to me is totally out of context. One which is outside of the main theme of the narrative, and one which is silent in the Genesis 2,3 record. As we shall see through much study and many questions this chapter speaks to a wonderful lofty "lamentation" over the King of Tyre.

Ezek 28:1,12 is addressed to the King. And like Isaiah 14 (King of Babylon) which again brings again into question the symbology of the language, which is either, wrested, and taken outside the confines of Scripture. I stress we must work within the context to discover truth.

Veteran you may not know this and may come as a surprise? but archaeological evidence has found a cherub/sphinx at Tyre, with the head of the king, animal's body, and sitting on a mountain. The found embedded in the body are 9 jewels. The Inscriptions call the king of Tyre "Lord of the Heavens", and describe Tyre as "the garden of God".

The symbol of the “cherubim" guarding Tyre (and or Israel) compares well with Gen 3:24.

Over the years one of the great difficulties in dealing with those who believe in the satan (which by the way is not mentioned at in Ezekiel) is the way Bible students takes these highly symbolic language and make it literal. This is frought with danger! And in time hopefully we can explore other passages where this is done to the determent of the passage.

Can God Almighty use the figure of a Cherub to describe a man? Why not? Can God use the symbol of a star falling from heaven as a man? Why not?

No doubt you will agree it is for us (together) to reason out the matter and pray God will open our eyes to its true meaning.

You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. Ezek 28:13

You (King of Tyre) were in Eden -

Given the context Veteran this is likened to the King of Tyre being “as” one of the trees in the garden of Eden (Eze 31:3,8,9). We know Eden covered an extensive area and if you desire I have some work on the location of Eden, but most is inferred and I would prefer to keep to the facts.(Gen 2:8; Eze 27:23).

There is nothing in the text that you can say takes us back in time! Most assuredly this is referring to a geographical region and not a time!

You are also correct in stating only 9 of the tribes (stones) of Israel (breast plate) Exod 28:17-30 are here quoted, however, interesting that a whole third row is missing??? But the LXX Septuagint has included the third row! I personally can see no reason for why they are omitted, but that’s not to say there isn’t one.

Notice how the stones of the Breastplate are spoken of as adorning the King of Tyre?

ESV Your clothing was “adorned” with every precious stone

Here is the strong connection being the King of Trye & Israel.

The illusion is one of the stones of the High Priests Breastplate Exod 39:10-14 which is called here the “stones of fire” speaks to the Shekinah glory in their midst! I believe this is making reference to the work of Tyre with Israel in building the temple, the glory of the stones of fire is descriptive of Gods divine favour which the King enjoyed and was clothed with while doing this important work - highly symbolic. Solomon was assisted by the King in helping Israel build the temple (2Sa 5:11; 1Ki 5:1-18) and this was allowed by God...you know the rest of the story.

I think you will agree the understanding of a supernatural monster being in the Garden with A&E has no roots in this record, nor in the narrative of Ezek 28.

There are many questions I could ask of your understanding on Ezel 28, I have put mine out into the forum and yes some have disrepectfully cast stones without any evidence of thier own. This all end in strife, if prefer to keep this civil its best for all.

Alethos

 

veteran

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Hi Veteran,

Below are all the references to the Garden in the Bible other than the beginning.

Gen 4:16: Here Cain left the presence of God which we take to be the area just east of the garden, where the "faces" or "presence" of the Cherubim in Gen 3:24; 4:14,16" and he journeyed to Nod, scripture is silent on its location.

Gen 13:10: "beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere, before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, as the garden of the Lord."

Isa 51:3: "For the Lord shall comfort Zion: He will comfort all her waste places; and He will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord."

This prophecy foresees a time when the areas immediately surrounding Zion will become like Eden. The key here is “once before”, they had been “like” the Garden of Eden, but because of sin they become barren, similar to before and after Sodom and Gomorrah.


Quoting those verses about the future establishing of God's Kingdom upon earth in the holy land does nothing to prove that the king of Tyre was ever in God's Garden of Eden. All you're doing is beating around the bush with descriptions of God's Eden. It is well established in God's Word that His Eden is different than His people. I think you know better too.



Eze 28:13: "Thou (the king of Tyre – Ezek 28:12)

Currently under discussion.

“hast been in Eden the garden of God." Must parallel with Ezek 28:14: "Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God"? Are the "garden of God" and the "holy mountain of God" the same?

I personally believe so but I will not be dogmatic! (There is a number of views on the location of Eden, I like to place Eden on Jerusalem - but again its one of desire :) )

You're still beating around the bush, not getting anywhere, and have completely left the context of the Ezek.28 verses. Your inferrence with being "dogmatic" won't work either, because it's obvious you are the one trying to be dogmatic with your denial of who God is pointing to with the one that was in Eden ("that old serpent" the devil).


Eze 31:9,16,18; speaks to Assyria and Egypt, because of their military prowess into Palestine and Lebanon, these nations are symbolised as "trees" in Eden and the garden of the Lord.

Notice as we move into the Prophetical writings the Symbology becomes stronger and more frequent? As we find God making reference back to things already established long ago.

Eze 36:35: "And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited." Similar to Isa 51:3. Again prophecy pointing to the promised land being compared to Eden.

Joel 2:3: "Locusts" like a fire devour the "garden of Eden" -- ie, Israel!!!! NON NEGIOTABLE leaving her a "desolate wilderness".

The Joel reference cannot be argued against Israel!!! Its referring to Israel as the “garden of Eden” where we find devastation coming against the landscape in Joel 1:19,20. This is a very sad account of the riches of wealth during the the years of King Uzziah in 2 Chron 26:10, is now a vial and desolate place likened to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 13:10) This language is repeated of the last days “as it was in the days of Lot........so shall it be in Luke 17:28;29.

You've taken the Joel 2:3 verse completely out of context, trying to modify God's Word for your own deceptive aims...

Joel 2:3
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
(KJV)


That's a comparison figure of speech about a land appearing like Eden, and being devoured by the locust army, nothing more. It is not saying the holy land is God's Garden of Eden today, nor anytime after Gen.3. The idea is how the locust army devours in the last days, using the fruitfulness of a place LIKE God's Eden as a figurative example, their turning a fruitful place into a desolate wilderness. It is a metaphorical reference to Eden, not a literal one.

I can see why you've come up with so many deluded ideas about God's Word, it's because you don't understand how simple language grammar works with figures of speech, analogy and metaphor.


Now Veteran, it appears you have taken one of these references (Ezek 28) and applied an understanding, which to me is totally out of context. One which is outside of the main theme of the narrative, and one which is silent in the Genesis 2,3 record. As we shall see through much study and many questions this chapter speaks to a wonderful lofty "lamentation" over the King of Tyre.

And just HOW does that prove that the king of Tyre was ever "the anointed cherub that covereth" and was in God's Garden of Eden?

In Ezek.31 you'll run into the same problem by not understanding the deeper metaphor there about one who was in God's Eden and exalted above all the trees.


Ezek 28:1,12 is addressed to the King. And like Isaiah 14 (King of Babylon) which again brings again into question the symbology of the language, which is either, wrested, and taken outside the confines of Scripture. I stress we must work within the context to discover truth.
.

Figures of speech, analogy, metaphor and symbolism are all part of grammar context. But apparently you're not really interested in grammar context, but your own ideas which go against it. You might try looking at Bullinger's Appendix in The Companion Bible where he lists the various Hebrew figures of speech that occur within The Old Testament Scriptures.


Veteran you may not know this and may come as a surprise? but archaeological evidence has found a cherub/sphinx at Tyre, with the head of the king, animal's body, and sitting on a mountain. The found embedded in the body are 9 jewels. The Inscriptions call the king of Tyre "Lord of the Heavens", and describe Tyre as "the garden of God".

The symbol of the “cherubim" guarding Tyre (and or Israel) compares well with Gen 3:24.

The pagan kings all tried to exalt themselves above God, no surprise there, but were they ever in God's God of Eden? NO. Statue's and relics they made were no better than their false claims they used to try and exalt themselves above God. Afterall, they're nothing but stone, right? That's the difference. Nor were they real anointed cherubs, for Biblically, a cherub is a heavenly being, not a stone statue, and not a flesh king.

Further, the Cherubims of Genesis 3 were not stone statues either, otherwise you make even the Tree of Life a pagan dream. So I wouldn't be proud of that reference of stone statues pagans made for theirselves that dishonor our Heavenly Father and His Word. Nor do they disprove that God was also talking about the cherub Satan in Ezek.28, for He was speaking of a real heavenly cherub in His Garden of Eden, not a stone statue. Likewise, in Ezek.31 the one in Eden was about real entity also, and not a stone statue.

If anything, those pagan statues prove all the more the existence of a heavenly cherub that was once literally in God's Garden of Eden that rebelled against Him, and the pagans worshipped that heavenly cherub (Satan) instead of The LORD GOD. They simply did that false worship through their flesh pagan kings as symbolic for Satan. In ancient Sumer, the Sumerians called Sargon the son of Bel (dragon, which is one of Satan's titles per Rev.12:9), and the word Sargon means king.


Over the years one of the great difficulties in dealing with those who believe in the satan (which by the way is not mentioned at in Ezekiel) is the way Bible students takes these highly symbolic language and make it literal. This is frought with danger! And in time hopefully we can explore other passages where this is done to the determent of the passage.

There's a huge difference between the falseness of 'believing in the satan' and recognizing God's Word declaring who Satan is, and what he did. We don't worship Satan, but the pagan idolaters did, and do, and that whether they realize it or not. Worshipping anyone or anything other than The Father through His Son is to default to false worship of Satan, the one who first rebelled against God in the beginning. What is frought with danger is in not recognizing God's main enemy, the devil. Simply denying the devil's existence can make someone open to his devices out of ignorance of God's warnings about him.


Can God Almighty use the figure of a Cherub to describe a man? Why not? Can God use the symbol of a star falling from heaven as a man? Why not?

What God can or cannot do, is not the subject. God tells us in His Word what He has done, does, and what He will do, that's what matters. Simple minded statements like, "Can God do this, or are we only trying to limit Him?", usually involve a vain attempt by the flesh to attribute ideas to God that He did not reveal in His Word. It's an attempt to rely on men's doctrine instead of relying on what He says in His Word.


No doubt you will agree it is for us (together) to reason out the matter and pray God will open our eyes to its true meaning.

There it is, that's what I was talking about in my previous statement. God is The only One Who can reveal to you the deeper meaning in the Ezekiel 28 Scripture concerning the cherub Satan. I cannot do it for you. You cannot do it of yourself either. It's truth will not come by reasoning alone, but only by His revelation of it by The Holy Spirit. Many of the deeper truths in God's Word, i.e., the "strong meat", is only revealed that way and no other.


You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. Ezek 28:13
You (King of Tyre) were in Eden -

Given the context Veteran this is likened to the King of Tyre being “as” one of the trees in the garden of Eden (Eze 31:3,8,9). We know Eden covered an extensive area and if you desire I have some work on the location of Eden, but most is inferred and I would prefer to keep to the facts.(Gen 2:8; Eze 27:23).

You're back to square one. We can know Biblically, that the flesh king or prince of Tyre was no heavenly cherub, nor were they ever actually in God's Garden of Eden. And those are the facts, Biblical facts. Pagan statues won't stand up to those Biblical facts either. Yet, we DO KNOW per God's Word that Satan was once in God's Garden of Eden, per Revelation 12:9 and 20:2, as "that old serpent". But you deny that part of God's Word in favour of your own reasoning.



 

Alethos

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You're back to square one. We can know Biblically, that the flesh king or prince of Tyre was no heavenly cherub, nor were they ever actually in God's Garden of Eden. And those are the facts, Biblical facts. Pagan statues won't stand up to those Biblical facts either. Yet, we DO KNOW per God's Word that Satan was once in God's Garden of Eden, per Revelation 12:9 and 20:2, as "that old serpent". But you deny that part of God's Word in favour of your own reasoning.


Prove from Ezek 28 this Cherub is "heavenly"? The stones are real, the mountains are real the riches are real...all items on earth?

You cannot use the word heavenly - its not within the context.

Prove from Ezek 28 the Garden is referring to a "time" and not "a region or area" as I believe it is?

What do the stones of fire and breastplate to do with the Cherub?

Why does this Cherub cover them?

Why is this Cherub confined only to Israel? Stones, mountain, symbol of the Cherub a crafted work etc.

Why is this Cherub interested in wealth and riches? Physical elements not Spiritual?

How can your Cherub be in actual "Eden" when the stones of the breastplate had not entered the scene for over 1 thousand years? You have us believe the Cherub is in three places at once?

How can the Cherub be in Eden (doing your devils work) while walking around Israel and its tribes and walking upon the Mountain of God (Zion)?

And Veteran why did God introduce some demonic being here in the context of the judgments from God upon the King of Tyre? Why wait from ALL this time long after A&E until now to divulge your beast?

Why would God assign the name "Anointed Cherub" as a protective angelic being and then apply great judgements against stating "it will die"!!!!

The Chapter opens with ref to the King and it closes with the King, any understanding of these symbolic verse must be in relation to the King!

Angelic beings cannot die! They cannot sin! They cannot fall! They share the very nature of God and He is manifested through them perfectly. This Cherub is not angelic because it dies! All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more. Ezek 28:19

And yes Veteran the Prophecy was fulfilled. The King now rests with the congregation of the dead never to see, hear, think for ever. Prov 21:16

I have provided a clear interpretation to answer all these questions.

Sorry Veteran your interpretation makes no sense and I must say, as others must be thinking, this section of scripture offers you a very weak support for such a being. Isa 14 & Ezek 28 offer thier context to mere men and nothing else. Like you said, no one has been able to explain to you the truth concerning Ezek 28 because you made your mind up on the devil, satan, Lucifer, anointed cherub, etc etc etc.

I conclude to this point your interpration is no stronger than mine, and I will allow those here to read the evidence as stated and should they go with the context of the passage, then so be it, but if they move into the supernatural, beware!

Alethos

 

Alethos

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Are you aware that their is more than one level of understanding in Scripture?

Level to mean differences?

Only one Tom! 2 Peter 1:20
Otherwise our Father has more than one mind and we would be in confusion :unsure:

But if you mean "depth" of understanding? Then Yes, but no error allowed!

Cherub = Satanic demonic monster in the Garden = error!

Alethos
 

veteran

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Prove from Ezek 28 this Cherub is "heavenly"?


Cherubims is rendered plural, but is same Hebrew word for 'cherub'.

Gen 3:24
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(KJV)

Exod 25:18-22
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
(KJV)

Isa 37:16
16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, That dwellest between the cherubims, Thou art the God, even Thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: Thou hast made heaven and earth.
(KJV)

Ezek 10:15-20
15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.
17 When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.
18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.
19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.
(KJV)


You're treading dangerous ground now by denying that Scripture evidence that defines what a cherub is. A cherub, or cherubims (plural), is a living heavenly being, called there in Ezekiel 10 a "living creature". Treating a cherub as a stone statue is foolishness, no excuse for it.




 

Alethos

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[/b]Cherubims is rendered plural, but is same Hebrew word for 'cherub'.

Gen 3:24
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(KJV)

Exod 25:18-22
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
(KJV)

Isa 37:16
16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, That dwellest between the cherubims, Thou art the God, even Thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: Thou hast made heaven and earth.
(KJV)

Ezek 10:15-20
15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.
17 When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.
18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.
19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.
(KJV)


You're treading dangerous ground now by denying that Scripture evidence that defines what a cherub is. A cherub, or cherubims (plural), is a living heavenly being, called there in Ezekiel 10 a "living creature". Treating a cherub as a stone statue is foolishness, no excuse for it.


No Veteran,

Prove from with Ezek 28 this Cherub is heavenly, based on its activities...prove that God is not using the symbol of the Ezek 25 beaten work and its outreaching ability to cover the stones of Israel.

Also proved from Ezek 28 your understanding of the Garden that this Cherub went back in time from Ezek 28, why? I have clearly explained its referring to a region of territory, which is consistent with the Cherub, the stones of fire, the breastplate, the mountains of God etc.

I am yet to see you bring these points together in a coherent way. I acknowledge as you do, this is a difficult section of scripture and as you said "you are yet to find anyone to expound a better understanding. Maybe this could be it! Its untenable the idea of a Heavenly Cherub being a rebellious angel!

Alethos









 

tomwebster

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No Veteran,

Prove from with Ezek 28 this Cherub is heavenly, based on its activities...prove that God is not using the symbol of the Ezek 25 beaten work and its outreaching ability to cover the stones of Israel.

Also proved from Ezek 28 your understanding of the Garden that this Cherub went back in time from Ezek 28, why? I have clearly explained its referring to a region of territory, which is consistent with the Cherub, the stones of fire, the breastplate, the mountains of God etc.

I am yet to see you bring these points together in a coherent way. I acknowledge as you do, this is a difficult section of scripture and as you said "you are yet to find anyone to expound a better understanding. Maybe this could be it! Its untenable the idea of a Heavenly Cherub being a rebellious angel!

Alethos



I do not believe you are able to see "coherent." I suggest you put it on the shelf for now, someday you might understand. Ezek 28 isn't the only chapter in Scripture; you need to use all of it. You only think you are "truth."


 

Alethos

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I do not believe you are able to see "coherent." I suggest you put it on the shelf for now, someday you might understand. Ezek 28 isn't the only chapter in Scripture; you need to use all of it. You only think you are "truth."

Comments like these Tom reveal a great deal about yourself and your application to Bible Study, or lack thereof. Often the Pharisees would “go away" and reason amongst themselves, because they too could not reason out the Scriptures with the Master, nor could they ask the right questions of the Word. Today you have revealed a similar spirit.

Where does the intent to silence truth come from? 1 John 4:6 needs apply in regard to your intention.

All of Ezek 28 is lost on you because you see devils and only devils! Veteran at least appreciates the historical background to Ezek 26,27,28, although is struggling to reconcile the symbols being applied. One must enter Ezek 28 in view of its context (King of Tyre) and not some unrelated supernatural monster which has no bearing (at all) on the narrative, or its historical fulfilment.

In fact Tom, we are yet to see any material from you in this regard? If you think the above comment is supporting your comrade you might like to think again.

Too many questions are asked of Ezek 28 with so few answers.

Lets keep this one off the shelf until some “brave” Christian has something of value to add to this discussion.

Alethos