Rapper DMX dies of alleged overdose; claims Jesus was his Savior

PeterJames0510 said:

So you would condemn someone to hell because they don't "look" like a Christian in your estimation? This is a precise question.

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That precise question has been answered several 100 x in this thread. We are not in the position of authority to judge. It certainly is not about 'looks' - but actual obedience to the Will of the Father, transformed action, that matters. Everything else is lip service.

We are saved by the Grace of God through the sacrifice of his Son and accepting, receiving and holding on to that is our responsibility. That is, not being saved is not due to His unfaithfulness but ours. Faith = Belief + Action.

Now let me ask you a question. Do you suppose the gates of heaven will be breached by mere lip service?


21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:21 (NLT)

07-07-07 said:

The Scriptures teach of the works of the Lord being walked out by the believer. The glory goes to God, for we are His workmanship.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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Yes see, this is another characteristic of Lordship Salvationists. Very confusing.

You can't honestly answer my question with a "No, I don't believe in a works salvation" because you believe 'works' are involved. How is this any different from Rome or the vast majority of Calvinists and Arminians who believe in looking inward to get assurance of their salvation?

PeterJames0510 said:

Okay - so just to be clear - the act of walking in the light is a *requirement* for salvation?

So just to be double clear - you believe in a works gospel?

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This also has been covered many times in this thread. We are not saved by external 'works' as that term is used in the Bible. A pre-requisite to being saved is doing internal work, slaying the biggest idol in the world, one's own ego.

By their fruit, you shall know them. In other words, works is a measure of one who is saved (not the mechanism by which they are saved). Works is the effect, not the cause of salvation. If you are truly saved, you truly work. What work? That is up to God. What does the Spirit put on your heart?

Wrangler said:

That precise question has been answered several 100 x in this thread. We are not in the position of authority to judge. It certainly is not about 'looks' - but actual obedience to the Will of the Father, transformed action, that matters. Everything else is lip service.

We are saved by the Grace of God through the sacrifice of his Son and accepting, receiving and holding on to that is our responsibility. That is, not being saved is not due to His unfaithfulness but ours. Faith = Belief + Action.

Now let me ask you a question. Do you suppose the gates of heaven will be breached by mere lip service?


21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:21 (NLT)

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This is where you err. No one ever said there should *not* be fruit in a believer's life.

It seems anytime someone comes up with the pure gospel of God's love and grace and they even *hint* at the idea that we cannot gain *or* maintain our salvation by our works, that must mean we believe in license to sin.

In the quote of Matthew 7:21 above, that is absolutely right. What is the will of the Father?

To be saved.

How do you get saved?

But trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only finished sacrifice for sin.

Once done, are there any works that must accompany salvation in order to maintain salvation?

No, because if there is - we've just turned the Gospel into a Works Gospel.

Should there be fruit in a believer's life: absolutely, we are MANDATED and REQUIRED to be fruitful Christians. But that is different than saying we need to take those fruits and apply it as merit to our salvation.

Wrangler said:

This also has been covered many times in this thread. We are not saved by external 'works' as that term is used in the Bible. A pre-requisite to being saved is doing internal work, slaying the biggest idol in the world, one's own ego.

By their fruit, you shall know them. In other words, works is a measure of one who is saved (not the mechanism by which they are saved). Works is the effect, not the cause of salvation. If you are truly saved, you truly work. What work? That is up to God. What does the Spirit put on your heart?

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* If we are saved by internal works, we are all going to hell. No one can do an internal work to be saved. We can't slay our idols, we can't slay our egos. The only thing we can do is *turn* from trusting in ourselves and *turn* to trusting in God.

*As already explained, by your fruit you should know them in Matthew 7 has to do with the false prophets trusting THEIR OWN works for salvation.

* Amen - we are saved to WORK. Again, neither gain nor maintain salvation by good works as you or someone else posted from Ephesians 2.

If you believe works plays any part in salvation whatsoever - it's a works gospel, plain and simple.

By the way, that's a TOTALLY different thought then all believe must have good works: that is a correct thought for discipleship and sanctification which all believers are mandated to grow in. But again, totally different from salvation.

PeterJames0510 said:

Should there be fruit in a believer's life: absolutely, we are MANDATED and REQUIRED to be fruitful Christians. But that is different than saying we need to take those fruits and apply it as merit to our salvation.

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And no one in this thread is saying this.

The point is OSAS is not in the Bible. Jesus talks about salt losing flavor and vines that don’t produce fruit being put in the fire. I trust you connect being put I the fire with not being saved.

PeterJames0510 said:

If we are saved by internal works, we are all going to hell. No one can do an internal work to be saved. We can't slay our idols, we can't slay our egos. The only thing we can do is *turn* from trusting in ourselves and *turn* to trusting in God.

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LOL. That’s the internal work I’m talking about. OSAS cannot even use language properly to articulate their false doctrine. Trusting and turning are pre-requisite actions we must take.

PeterJames0510 said:

If you believe works plays any part in salvation whatsoever - it's a works gospel, plain and simple.

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As used in the Bible, yes. External. As used in our society, internal work, no.

PeterJames0510 said:

But again, totally different from salvation.

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The difference is NOW compared to LATER. Jesus throws us a life preserver. We always have the ability to let it go.

07-07-07 said:

So you believe that one can sin their way into Heaven?

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This is precisely the problem I pointed out to you before; that the moment someone comes up and says:

"Hey man, did you know all you got to do is believe on Christ and His cross for eterna life" that naysayers come out and say "So what you're saying is you can sin your way into heaven? What your saying is you can sin and still get in?"

Whoever says that? If you live in sin and don't accept Christ - you don't go to heaven. If you accept Christ and believe on Him, you go to heaven. Just like we can find many trees that have branches that are alive (but have no fruit) - there are plenty of fruitless Christians in the world. There SHOULD NOT be ... but that doesn't mean there AREN'T.

Wrangler said:

And no one in this thread is saying this.

The point is OSAS is not in the Bible. Jesus talks about salt losing flavor and vines that don’t produce fruit being put in the fire. I trust you connect being put I the fire with not being saved.

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Not in every case. There are times divine fire is used as judgment against believers.

Wrangler said:

As used in the Bible, yes. External. As used in our society, internal work, no.

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What does that even mean? Are you saying someone has to "reform" their inner lives before getting saved? If so, there's a whole lot of us going to the flames ...

PeterJames0510 said:

Not in every case. There are times divine fire is used as judgment against believers.

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Yes, the wheat from the chaff, those who faithfully act from merely pay life service belief.

PeterJames0510 said:

In the quote of Matthew 7:21 above, that is absolutely right. What is the will of the Father?

To be saved.

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You are in denial if you suppose that is the will of the Father apart from obedience to him. Sin is not <not being saved> but actions contrary to God's will.

07-07-07 said:

So you believe that one can sin their way into Heaven?

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I noticed he did not answer this.

Wrangler said:

As used in the Bible, yes. External. As used in our society, internal work, no.

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PeterJames0510 said:

What does that even mean? Are you saying someone has to "reform" their inner lives before getting saved? If so, there's a whole lot of us going to the flames ...

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Yes, a whole lot of us going to the flames. But I already explained dozens of times what is meant by internal work, slay the biggest idol in the world, your own ego. No one can truly believe in God when they think themselves god. That is the story of the Bible beginning with the Garden.

Wrangler said:

Yes, a whole lot of us going to the flames. But I already explained dozens of times what is meant by internal work, slay the biggest idol in the world, your own ego. No one can truly believe in God when they think themselves god. That is the story of the Bible beginning with the Garden.

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And I've already explained to you - no where in the Bible do we read that unbelievers can slay their own idols. If that's a work to merit salvation - it can't be done.

Wrangler said:

I noticed he did not answer this.

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I did answer that question. [Despite the fact that I do disappear, I have not left the room yet.] Until you learn you are a sinner, you can't be saved ... but stopping sin is not something a sinner can do. That is only something God can do for believers.

Wrangler said:

Yes, the wheat from the chaff, those who faithfully act from merely pay life service belief.



You are in denial if you suppose that is the will of the Father apart from obedience to him. Sin is not <not being saved> but actions contrary to God's will.

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So, if I obey all of God's commands - I can be saved?

How is that *not* works salvation?

PeterJames0510 said:

And I've already explained to you - no where in the Bible do we read that unbelievers can slay their own idols. If that's a work to merit salvation - it can't be done.

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It is my characterization. You explained and I agreed to your use of the terms trusting and turning.

If these actions were not prerequisites then universalism is correct doctrine, since it is the will of the Father than we be saved. The Bible foolishly says all who BELIEVE will be saved? Why is this work, this action acceptable work but not given credit for the work that it is?