The Absolute Equality of Jesus With The Father

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two distinct Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming. Even as the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ demanded EQUAL “HONOUR” with the Father, though He says that “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Here is indeed a Great Mystery!

John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and worshipped”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH , “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL

Also, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, we read of Jesus Christ say of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last". Thayer says of the words, "ho protos kai ho eschatos, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, and ETERNAL. Add to this the words of Jesus Christ in chapter 22, “I am THE Alpha and THE Omega, THE First and THE Last, THE Beginning and THE End”. In Isaiah 44:6, we read, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am THE First and I am THE Last; besides me there is no god”. It is not only impossible for Jesus to have said these words about Himself, IF, as some teach, that He is no more than a mere “created” being, but, it would also be the highest form of blasphemy. However, we are confident from what we read in the Infallible Word of God, that there can be no doubt, that Jesus Christ, IS indeed ALMIGHTY GOD, without beginning or end, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.
 
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APAK

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“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two separate Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

The Father and the Son work as one, as on the 'same' team, although they are different and not equal in nature, spirit and power. They are not the same (G)god indeed. The Son is subordinate to the Father. One is the source of existence: the one pure deity is the ONLY ONE on the throne (the power source) in heaven and the other, the Son (the Lamb), uses his given Father's source of power as promised and given in order to work in the 'sameness' of purpose of the Father. There are not TWO personalities or TWO Gods on the throne. The throne signifies the source of ALL power and there is only ONE source, YHWH, the Father.

You now claim several things: that there is no subordination of the Son to the Father, citing a non-biblical post incarnation theory. You discussion and facts thus far do not support this sudden conclusion the Christ is the same God as the Father. And then you add to your baseless conclusion that there is ONLY ONE God with TWO personalities on the same throne as TWO people sharing the ONE source of power, which is impossible. And then ram in part, the Trinity axiom, God the Father and God the Son to push your true main point if someone would miss it. I wonder where the God of the Holy Spirit fits into all this? The Trinity is meant have 3 personalities fused into one as the same God, right?

You are just ensuring your text and claims support your preconceived ideas and theories that the Trinity is the gold standard. You have not proved any of this. You have succeeded however to convince a few and confuse many more and reinforce a few like me that you as many before you, cannot prove the Trinity in scripture. You are required to assume and misuse scripture to support your deluded and chaotic religion of the pagan Trinity.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board and start over....you never proved the Trinity and that the Son is the Almighty YHWH, a title only given the Father.


APAK
 
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amadeus

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Not such a mystery. The Fathjer and Son are equal in nearly all things, after all, the Son inherited everything the Father has...authority, power, etc. But one thing the Son never had and never will...the Father's rank.
"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40
 
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amadeus

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This is not the Father speaking to Jesus
No types nor shadows allowed then? Should we also forget parables and messages in tongues? Do we look at and partake of the whole loaf or only at and of that which already seems to fit what we have already believed?

What a mighty God we serve!
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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No types nor shadows allowed then? Should we also forget parables and messages in tongues? Do we look at and partake of the whole loaf or only at and of that which already seems to fit what we have already believed?

What a mighty God we serve!

Are you suggesting that the Father is somehow greater than Jesus and the Holy Spirit pre Incarnation and post Ascension? In the Godhead
 

Wrangler

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The Absolute Equality of Jesus With The Father

This is the most absurd thing I ever heard. The Father begat Jesus. Jesus died. God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was sent, did the will, spoke the words of God, needed to be strengthened by angels and prophets and asked God to take the Cup. Jesus submitted to the will of the Father.

In none of these instances is the reverse equally true. Jesus did not begat the Father.The Father did not die. Jesus did not raise the Father from the dead. The Father was not sent and did not do the will of Jesus. The Father did not speak the words of Jesus. The Father did not need to be strengthened. The Father did not ask Jesus to take the cup. The Father did not submit to the will of the son.
 
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amadeus

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Are you suggesting that the Father is somehow greater than Jesus and the Holy Spirit pre Incarnation and post Ascension? In the Godhead
Did I suggest something? I simply strive to surrender to God and stay in Spirit 24/7. I also do not insist that what I believe is always better than what others believe. God knows!

"Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!" Phil 4:4

"Pray without ceasing." I Thess 5:17

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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This is the most absurd thing I ever heard. The Father begat Jesus. Jesus died. God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was sent, did the will, spoke the words of God, needed to be strengthened by angels and prophets and asked God to take the Cup. Jesus submitted to the will of the Father.

In none of these instances is the reverse equally true. Jesus did not begat the Father.The Father did not die. Jesus did not raise the Father from the dead. The Father was not sent and did not do the will of Jesus. The Father did not speak the words of Jesus. The Father did not need to be strengthened. The Father did not ask Jesus to take the cup. The Father did not submit to the will of the son.

Absurd because you don't understand the Godhead of the God of the Bible.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Did I suggest something? I simply strive to surrender to God and stay in Spirit 24/7. I also do not insist that what I believe is always better than what others believe. God knows!

"Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!" Phil 4:4

"Pray without ceasing." I Thess 5:17

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

You post something that is Biblically unsound and when I ask you to clarify your thoughts you become defensive
 

amadeus

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You post something that is Biblically unsound and when I ask you to clarify your thoughts you become defensive
What was unsound? I quoted scripture and asked questions!
Who is not defensive about what they really believe?
 

Enoch111

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Jesus submitted to the will of the Father.
This is the "Mystery of God and Christ". While on earth Jesus -- who is God the Word or God the Son or the Son of God -- was totally submissive to God the Father. There was a good reason for it. Jesus would be the perfect righteous man who was always obedient to God the Father. AT THE SAME TIME the Father called Him "God" (because He is God). See Hebrews 1:8,9.
 

Wrangler

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Absurd because you don't understand the Godhead of the God of the Bible.

You quoted Scripture and misapplied it for the purpose of theology which is unsound. Because in the Godhead The Three Persons are 100% co-equal co-essential and co-eternal

You can project your own quoting Scripture and misapplied it for the purpose of theology all you want. Fact is, 100% co-equal co-essential and co-eternal is no where to be found in Scripture. The trinity is not in the Bible.