The 12 tribes of Israel: They be us.

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robert derrick

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Commentators have gotten perplexed about James 1:1, where he writes to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad...

Most conclude that James, being with Peter an apostle of the circumcision (Gal 2:8), was therefore specifically writing to the converted Jews. Those of Jewish descent, children of Abraham as pertains to the flesh. (Romans 4:1)

But in the midst of their deliberation, they ask this one question, "what exactly did James mean..." And this is a great error in reading and interpreting Scripture.

It does not matter what James, or any other apostle or prophet, meant by what they were saying and writing. The only 2 things that really matter is that they accurately said and wrote what God said, what thus saith the Lord, and then what God meant by it.

Nothing in Scripture tells us that the prophetic or apostolic writer must understand what they are talking about, when giving us Scripture inspired of the Holy Spirit. The only mandate is that they give us Scripture from God, not ideas, rules, commandments, ideology, theology from themselves. Or as Moses put it, from his own mind. (Number 16: 28)

In fact, we are told by Scripture that many prophets did not know what they were talking about, when they told us what God said. Daniel is plainly such a case. As well as Scripture telling us that ALL the prophets were searching and wondering about the grace the spoke of, that would be offered to us in Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1)

And so, the real question is what did God mean by it. James may indeed have even thought he was specifically speaking to his kinsmen according to the flesh (Rom 9:3), that believe, but that doesnt matter to God, nor to us.

And so far as God is concerned, there is no difference between Greek nor Jew, nor any other person in the faith of Jesus. We are ALL believers of one body, neither Jew nor Greek nor male nor female. While there are places in Scripture where God says he is talking specifically to a woman or a man, or a wife, or a husband, nowhere in Scripture does God make it known in the New Covenant and body of Christ, that He is speaking exclusively to certain carnal bloodline or culture. He may be speaking about them, but not exclusively TO them.

And so, a simple conclusion is that God is now calling His churches the 12 tribes, His 12 tribes. We are the New Covenant tribes of Israel. We are the new church and body, the new peculiar people, the new holy nation and priesthood of God (1 Peter 2:9). We are the new creatures and citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:12). The Jews after the flesh who abide in unbelief continue as the new aliens, alienated from god without hope in the world. If they believe, then they are grafted back in with us. Equally. Completely. In unity with distinction nor respect of heritage of flesh.

Even as the everlasting covenant and priesthood of the Old Covenant with the children of Israel has been done away (Heb 8:13, 7:11) and replaced with the New, so have the children of Israel been replaced with the new men (Eph 2:15) (and women) in Christ Jesus.

What was intended to be everlasting ceased to be so, when the Son of God died on the cross, and so likewise did the body of Israel in the flesh die to the covenants and promises and family...and tribes of God, which is now new-born, or born again, with us in Christ Jesus. We are the new Israel of God, and so are we His tribes.

God is the One calling us the 12 tribes in James 1:1, even if James didnt understand it as such. We have Scriptures to prove this, that James was not privy to when he wrote the epistle...of God.

And so, the 12 tribes of Israel of God in Rev 7 are Christians of the New Covenant, whether Jewish or Greekish...
 
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Hidden In Him

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Commentators have gotten perplexed about James 1:1, where he writes to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad...

Most conclude that James, being with Peter an apostle of the circumcision (Gal 2:8), was therefore specifically writing to the converted Jews. Those of Jewish descent, children of Abraham as pertains to the flesh. (Romans 4:1)

But in the midst of their deliberation, they ask this one question, "what exactly did James mean..." And this is a great error in reading and interpreting Scripture.

It does not matter what James, or any other apostle or prophet, meant by what they were saying and writing. The only 2 things that really matter is that they accurately said and wrote what God said, what thus saith the Lord, and then what God meant by it.

Nothing in Scripture tells us that the prophetic or apostolic writer must understand what they are talking about, when giving us Scripture inspired of the Holy Spirit. The only mandate is that they give us Scripture from God, not ideas, rules, commandments, ideology, theology from themselves. Or as Moses put it, from his own mind. (Number 16: 28)

In fact, we are told by Scripture that many prophets did not know what they were talking about, when they told us what God said. Daniel is plainly such a case. As well as Scripture telling us that ALL the prophets were searching and wondering about the grace the spoke of, that would be offered to us in Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1)

And so, the real question is what did God mean by it. James may indeed have even thought he was specifically speaking to his kinsmen according to the flesh (Rom 9:3), that believe, but that doesnt matter to God, nor to us.

And so far as God is concerned, there is no difference between Greek nor Jew, nor any other person in the faith of Jesus. We are ALL believers of one body, neither Jew nor Greek nor male nor female. While there are places in Scripture where God says he is talking specifically to a woman or a man, or a wife, or a husband, nowhere in Scripture does God make it known in the New Covenant and body of Christ, that He is speaking exclusively to certain carnal bloodline or culture. He may be speaking about them, but not exclusively TO them.

And so, a simple conclusion is that God is now calling His churches the 12 tribes, His 12 tribes. We are the New Covenant tribes of Israel. We are the new church and body, the new peculiar people, the new holy nation and priesthood of God (1 Peter 2:9). We are the new creatures and citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:12). The Jews after the flesh who abide in unbelief continue as the new aliens, alienated from god without hope in the world. If they believe, then they are grafted back in with us. Equally. Completely. In unity with distinction nor respect of heritage of flesh.

Even as the everlasting covenant and priesthood of the Old Covenant with the children of Israel has been done away (Heb 8:13, 7:11) and replaced with the New, so have the children of Israel been replaced with the new men (Eph 2:15) (and women) in Christ Jesus.

What was intended to be everlasting ceased to be so, when the Son of God died on the cross, and so likewise did the body of Israel in the flesh die to the covenants and promises and family...and tribes of God, which is now new-born, or born again, with us in Christ Jesus. We are the new Israel of God, and so are we His tribes.

God is the One calling us the 12 tribes in James 1:1, even if James didnt understand it as such. We have Scriptures to prove this, that James was not privy to when he wrote the epistle...of God.

And so, the 12 tribes of Israel of God in Rev 7 are Christians of the New Covenant, whether Jewish or Greekish...

Greetings, Robert Derrick.

I'm not deliberately being confrontational by saying it, but in a Spirit of love if I may: Your post is riddled with errors. Firstly you are directly contradicting yourself. Your argument is that the scripture says what it means and means what it says, and is not subject to interpretation, and then you turn around and say "the twelve tribes of Israel" is clearly a reference to the church.

You are not making a very good case on this grounds alone. There are other glaring problems, but I will leave it at that for the moment.

Welcome to the forum and I hope my post does not offend you.
Hidden In Him
 

Grailhunter

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What happened to the ten tribes of Israel? It has been a matter of deep research for centuries. You can imagine that modern Jews have a vested interest in this.

Around 722 B.C., the Assyrians invaded and destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel. In 568 B.C., the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the first temple.

The custom of these people was to kill the male captives or enslave them. The male captives were not allowed to breed. It was a matter of procedure not to allow their enemies to breed. Then they took their women and effectively breed them out of existence. The research shows even at the DNA level, this is exactly what happened.

So depending how you look at it, the descendance of the ten tribes were carried forward through the women, but their children were fathered by Pagans and raised Pagan.

And this was actually God's policy too...Mosaic rules of war...kill all that breaths accept the virgins and breed your enemy out of existence. No males alive to pick up a sword and avenge their people.
 
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robert derrick

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True, however, in 1 Chronicles 15, we see that many of the tribes of Simeon and Joseph (Manasseh and Ephraim) moved south to join Judah and Benjamin, when Judah was in reformation for the Lord. So all these at least had legitimate descendants to the captivity and return...
 
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Grailhunter

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True, however, in 1 Chronicles 15, we see that many of the tribes of Simeon and Joseph (Manasseh and Ephraim) moved south to join Judah and Benjamin, when Judah was in reformation for the Lord. So all these at least had legitimate descendants to the captivity and return...

The problem is that there is no biblical or historical evidence of this and that is why they are still called lost in the New Testament. Is there wishful thinking? Yes.

The Jews were really big on keeping track of the bloodlines and if some tribes survived it would be a really big deal. And they could trace their lineage back to their tribes. There would be no reason for them to hide from the other tribes.
 

Truman

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There is a new move of God moving around the globe where descendants of the ten tribes are waking up. But I don't want to argue about it.
 

robert derrick

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There is a new move of God moving around the globe where descendants of the ten tribes are waking up. But I don't want to argue about it.

Well, if you say God making a new move around the globe, then it certainly must be so. Arguing about it would indeed be pointless.

Lol!
 

robert derrick

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The problem is that there is no biblical or historical evidence of this and that is why they are still called lost in the New Testament. Is there wishful thinking? Yes.

The Jews were really big on keeping track of the bloodlines and if some tribes survived it would be a really big deal. And they could trace their lineage back to their tribes. There would be no reason for them to hide from the other tribes.

I'm missing something. Scripture says that many of the two tribes I listed out of Simeon and Joseph went down to Judah before the destruction of northern Israel, and so we must concede that 4 tribes had descendants of fathers and mothers and were not 'bred' out.

Also, where are they called the lost tribes in the Gospels or epistles?

Also, if it is true that there are no more true descendants of the other tribes carried away by Assyria, then how can they be numbered among 144,000 in Rev 7 from those tribes, if Scripture is in fact speaking of 12 tribes of all Jewish descent?

That would not be possible, unless Rev 7 is not one of those things which are and the things which shall come to pass...
 

robert derrick

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Greetings, Robert Derrick.

I'm not deliberately being confrontational by saying it, but in a Spirit of love if I may: Your post is riddled with errors. Firstly you are directly contradicting yourself. Your argument is that the scripture says what it means and means what it says, and is not subject to interpretation, and then you turn around and say "the twelve tribes of Israel" is clearly a reference to the church.

You are not making a very good case on this grounds alone. There are other glaring problems, but I will leave it at that for the moment.

Welcome to the forum and I hope my post does not offend you.
Hidden In Him

Truth ought not offend anyone, even if it hurts. Accusation is an offense to God. Afterall, the devil is not called the false accuser of the brethren, but just The accuser of the brethren (Rev 12:10). Many times he's right, just with the wrong spirit. Which I am not accusing you of. I do not believe you are a devil. (As the Levite said, Lol!)

However I am saying that I never said what you said I said, to wit: Scripture is not subject to interpretation... And so, by your own definition of argument, I have no contradiction of self to correct. And, of course, since you have chosen to not (yet) provide any proof that my post was riddled with errors, then...

But on the subject of interpretation of Scripture, I would love to provide some clarity.

Scripture is in fact subject to plenty of interpretations, some true some false, and they are proven true by Scripture provided to interpret them by. I.e. Scripture is subject to interpretation of Scripture, or rather Scripture interprets itself.

And I did indeed provide Scripture for every interpreting point I made of Scripture. And so your task, if you disagree, is to provide better interpretation of the Scripture I provided, or provide other Scriptures to show my interpretations are "riddled with errors".

Thank you for your welcome and I am not offended. And I will be more than glad to see something substantial from you. (Including any rebuts or agreements you may have with what I have written here on interpretation of Scripture)
 

Grailhunter

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Also, where are they called the lost tribes in the Gospels or epistles?
Opps, it is just the opposite...the New Testament never uses the phrase 10 lost tribes.

Also, if it is true that there are no more true descendants of the other tribes carried away by Assyria, then how can they be numbered among 144,000 in Rev 7 from those tribes, if Scripture is in fact speaking of 12 tribes of all Jewish descent?

I understand the number thing. If just does not show up in the Bible or the 2000 years that has past...none of the ten tribes are walking around.

Thank you for your welcome and I am not offended. And I will be more than glad to see something substantial from you. (Including any rebuts or agreements you may have with what I have written here on interpretation of Scripture)

Revelation will do that to you. Can God rematerialize the ten lost tribes? Of course.
 

Enoch111

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And so, a simple conclusion is that God is now calling His churches the 12 tribes, His 12 tribes.
No. Not really. Take a close look at Revelation 7, where two distinct groups are shown side by side -- 114,000 from the 12 tribes, and a vast multitude from the rest of humanity.
 

Hidden In Him

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Afterall, the devil is not called the false accuser of the brethren, but just The accuser of the brethren (Rev 12:10).

I think he's both actually. :) He doesn't care whether it's true or not. He just accuses.
Thank you for your welcome and I am not offended. And I will be more than glad to see something substantial from you. (Including any rebuts or agreements you may have with what I have written here on interpretation of Scripture)

Very nice reply, and I love discussing the word with others. I pray you forgive me if I can't devote full attention to this atm, as I have other things going on that need addressing. But let me start with this: In order to prove that James was not written to the Jewish church alone, you would need to give an explanation for why there seems to be so much reference to Jewish custom and Jewish law. They were indeed believers in Christ, but clearly Jewish. This suggests that the letter wasn't written to the Gentile Christians as you seem to suggest with the following quote:
And so, a simple conclusion is that God is now calling His churches the 12 tribes, His 12 tribes. We are the New Covenant tribes of Israel. We are the new church and body

As I have time, we could cover some of the verses in question that strongly suggest the book was written to Jewish Christians alone, but for now I will leave you to maybe investigate what verses I am referring to on your own. Maybe you might be able to come up with verses of your own in the process that support your case, and we can discuss those as well.

Welcome again to our forum! I truly do love those who honor scripture as God's word and wish to discuss it!
Hidden In Him
 

robert derrick

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Revelation will do that to you. Can God rematerialize the ten lost tribes? Of course.

Interesting. Most commentators believe the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 are Enoch and Isaiah. Taken away and now put back. In Lazarus and the corpse that touched the bones of Elisha, we see that death can likewise be taken away and the living put back. Not a resurrection, but just a temporary stay on death.

That of course would certainly have to be the case, IF the 12 tribes of Rev 7 are in fact strictly saved Jews of the flesh.
 

CoreIssue

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There are 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, specially selected male and preserved Jews. During the tribulation two thirds of the Jews in Israel die. At the second coming the Jews of the world are gather to Israel and assigned to their tribes. Replacement theology is a lie.