This is correct. Hence the fact that God blots out or removes names from the Book of Life. When the unsaved, the unbelieving, and the ungodly stand before the Great White Throne, their names will be absent because they chose to disregard or disobey the Gospel. Their names were blotted out of the Book of Life.
Biblical Salvation
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That is incorrect.
Those who believe not are "condemned already" (John 3:18) and therefore do not have their names written in the Book of Life.
Which means that this is in the foreknowledge of God. But had God seen them as believers they would not have been blotted out. You cannot escape from the biblical fact that names are removed or blotted out from the Book of Life. Which means that they were there to begin with.
Those who are "condemned already" (John 3:18) are not necessarily always condemned.
They can come to faith in Jesus Christ.
That means that their names can be written in the Book of Life because they have placed their faith in Jesus, when they do so.
But they are not written there causationally before it is determined (from eternity's perspective) that they place their faith in Jesus Christ.
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You seem now to have a grasp of when a person is actually reconciled to God by Christ through His death.
Tong
R2772
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your interpretation of "foreknowledge" makes the revelation about God's foreknowledge kinda trivial and it destroys what you are trying to protect. You posit that God choses people based on what they will do in the future. Big deal. This information is too unimportant to be worth consideration. What is so impressive about the fact that God is able to predict the future if it doesn't actually matter? Think about it. From the beginning of time, God knows that Cain is going to murder his brother Abel. In any case, Abel's murder takes place in the future with respect to the beginning of time and Cain's punishment takes place much further in time than that. Whether God knew about it in the past is irrelevant. The fact that God knew about Abel's murder in advance is problematic at best, since God didn't stop it from happening.
Secondly, your theory about foreknowledge is intended to protect and maintain the freedom of Man. But in reality, this theory of foreknowledge destroys man's freedom. Since God knew in advance that Cain was going to kill Abel, then Cain's act was fixed in time before Cain was alive to make his choice. If human beings have autonomous free-will, then the acts of men are indeterminate. God can't look down through time to see them because they don't exist until the moment the choice is made. Either God has foreknowledge or Man has autonomous free-will. It can't be both.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
If the plane is scheduled to leave at 2:30pm, then it follows that all those who boarded the plane will leave with the plane and all those who failed to board the plane will stay behind. Now, consider two people, Jane and Janice. God foreordains that Jane board the plane. Janice chooses not to board. By not putting Janice on the plane, didn't God foreordain that Janice stay behind? In other words, to foreordain that some board the plane necessarily foreordains that others miss the flight.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
This kind of talk seems to suggest that you are unconvinced in your own mind. Instead of insulting people, try strengthening your argument or let it stand. The truth can survive without us. Just sayin'
First of all, we perhaps all know and agree that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, etc.. But do we all agree that God have the prerogative to exercise or not any and all said attributes? I believe He have that. That was fully demonstrated in the incarnation. So with regards foreknowledge, God have the prerogative of knowing and not knowing certain things according to His will, purpose and pleasure. Of course, with my limited intelligence, I have no idea how that is. Also with regards all creation and everything that happens in time, He also have the prerogative to predestine and predetermine some things or even all things. But this I believe, that whatever it is that He does, He does it consistent with His nature and character, and according to His will, purpose, pleasure and for His glory.
Having said that, is the idea of God creating people to condemn or of predestining people to suffer eternal punishment in the lake of fire, consistent with His nature and character? The answer to that, is a resounding No. Is that His pleasure? The answer to that is likewise a resounding No. And scriptures fully support this in that there is no scriptures that says that God had done so.
How about predestining of people to enjoy eternal life in heaven? Is the idea consistent with His nature and character? The answer to that is Yes. Scriptures fully support this in that we read scriptures that speaks of chosen people predestined and ordained to eternal life.
With the foregoing, it does not follow that because some were predestined to eternal life, that the rest were by default were predestined to eternal punishment.
Tong
R2774
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Attributes are not something one exercises. They describe the quiddity of a person, what he is; not what he does. God is omniscient because he knows everything. If he chooses not to know something, he would be choosing not to be God, which is impossible. God is omnipresent; if he chooses not to be some place, then he is choosing not to be God, which is impossible. Either God knows something or it doesn't exist.
The future doesn't exist outside the mind of God. He knows the future, but not due to his omnipresence. He knows the future because he plans the future and creates it in every moment. God's foreknowledge isn't the same thing as his prescient knowledge of the future. Divine foreknowledge is "having a relationship" with someone in the past that continues into the future. Consider Romans 11:1-2 We see from that context, that Paul is talking about his people Israel, with whom he had a relationship that began in the past and will continue into the future. Those whom God foreknew are those who were connected to God in some significant way. Israel is connected to God in two significant ways: 1) a promise he made to their fathers (Romans 11:28), and 2) a covenant he made at Mt. Sinai. These are some of the people whom God foreknew.
Again, we are not talking about prescience; we are talking about relationship.
I disagree with your conclusion that creating people to condemn is against God's nature. First of all, you assume that an alternative exists when it doesn't. The alternative to being created is non-existence. If God didn't create someone to punish, then they wouldn't exist. Second of all, you assume that God's creation is arbitrary, which it isn't. If God creates someone on which to demonstrate his wrath, then he is not being arbitrary, the person exists to serve that purpose. If he created people for no reason at all, that is arbitrary.
If this offends you then why aren't you offended at God's mercy also? Paul argues that God does both; he creates some on which to demonstrate his wrath, and he creates some on which to demonstrate his mercy. Each person is created for a special purpose.
<<<God is omniscient because he knows everything. If he chooses not to know something, he would be choosing not to be God, which is impossible.>>>
That is what our human mind and reasoning tells us. But my thinking is like so because of what I learn from scriptures. That God have foreknowledge, is because He has omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence. Consider Jesus Christ, he is God, yet He is man. He did not cease to be God in His incarnation. That means Jesus still has omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, etc.. How can do you suppose can he be a man? Here’s another one to consider.
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Can God not, not know that Abraham fear God? Does that mean God is no longer omniscient?
Can God not, not be in Hell? Does that mean God is no longer omnipresent?
<<<I disagree with your conclusion that creating people to condemn is against God's nature. >>>
And I disagree with the contrary view that creating people for Him to have them to die and eternally suffer in the lake of fire is consistent with God’s nature and character.
Why I take that contrary view as not consistent with God’s nature and character is coming from scriptures such as this:
Ezek. 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
<<<If God didn't create someone to punish, then they wouldn't exist.>>>
God did not create any man to punish.
God created Adam and mankind in Genesis 1:27 in His image. And the Adam He created isn’t a condemned man. Now, in Adam is all of mankind. Why there exist condemned people is not because God created them condemned but because the man He created in whom is all of mankind, had sinned, bringing upon mankind condemnation.
Tong
R2780
Those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit are those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Martthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).
Those with a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel) can in fact fall away (Luke 8:13) or be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22) if they fail to continue in his goodness in a time of temptation.
Except that God did not foresee everything from the beginning of time; but He exists outside of time.
You have to see it as two sides of the same coin. It should be clear that Cain chose to kill Abel; and that God from the perspective of being outside of time saw that action from that perspective.
Since God is outside of time and does not see things from the beginning of time but rather from the perspective of being outside of it, your point is moot.
It can be both.
And it is (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
All names were recorded before the foundation of the earth was laid. The lost are struck when no hope remains.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
So what? This fact doesn't speak to the question. This fact is irrelevant to several key questions in this thread. It literally takes God out of the picture. Cain killed his brother within our time. And he will be punished in the final judgment.
Again, big deal. So what? If God knows what takes place from that perspective, then all things are fixed in time and can't be changed. Therefore, man has no freedom of will. And since your theory about God's perspective leads to an absurd notion, then it can't be true.
Perhaps...but all names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Those who believe not are "condemned already" (John 3:18); nevertheless they may not always be condemned; for they can come to faith in Jesus Christ.
Therefore those whose names are written in the Book of Life, there names are causationally written there from before the foundations of the world, as the result of their receiving and believing in Jesus, from the moment that they believe in Jesus from time's perspective. Before they believed in Jesus, they were "condemned already" (john 3:18) and therefore causationally their names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. For their names are written therein as the direct result of their believing in and receiving Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.
So, you're saying that man has no freedom of will? because the Bible is clear that God has foreknowledge about the events that have happened in history (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).
But if man has no freedom of will, how are the following verses even valid? Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The word "foreknowledge" in those passages do not refer to prescience. They refer to a prior relationship or connection. Jesus tells his disciples, for instance, that there will be people preaching in the streets and casting out demons, and he will tell them, "I never knew you", meaning: you were not connected with me in any way.
Man has freedom of the will, but the freedom of man is NOT autonomous freedom because God is creating the freewill decisions of man.
I disagree with you. I believe that foreknowledge means that God knows beforehand what will happen in people's lives and predestinates their lives accordingly.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
okay. It would take me too long to make my case for why foreknowledge isn't the same thing as prescience. But please consider passages of scripture where the Lord makes a specific statement concerning his prescience. Notice how different they sound than the current understanding of what "foreknowledge" means.
Please study and meditate on Isaiah chapter 48. In that chapter, the Lord makes his case, one more time, against idolatry. His argument seems to go something like this. You are the sons of the Patriarchs; you have taken my name; you worship me in all the prescribed rituals; and yet your heart is far from me. I knew this about you, so I sent my prophets to tell you what I intended to do in advance. I predicted the future so that when it took place, you wouldn't be able to say, "My idol did this." And now, what I am about to do, will be so hidden, so secret that it will be impossible to forecast what might happen. My predictions of the future are intended to prove that I alone control history and make it go the way I want history to progress.
Whenever the Lord mentions his prescience, his point is simple. He wants Israel and the rest of us to know that God isn't standing outside of time looking at history. He is creating history as it happens. Prophecy is NOT intended to demonstrate God's ability to SEE the future; prophecy is intended to prove that God creates the future. The following verse is but one example in that chapter.
Isaiah 48:3 “I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
First God predicts; then he acts. He predicts, and he alone causes the events to take place. They come to pass because he acts.
So you see, divine foreknowledge isn't about knowing the future because the future doesn't exist until the Lord acts. Only when the lord acts does it come to pass.
