A Christian: A Temple Of God Where No Sin Exists.

a3m24ie · Dec 17, 2010

TexUs,

What is it that you believe? You've been debating our arguments, but I'm not sure I'm clear on what your position is. That Christians can sin? ("Can" meaning have the capability/capacity to) Or are you arguing something more than that?

TexUs · Dec 17, 2010

Thankful, I won't debate with you if all you do is repetitively post the same stuff over and over again and not attempt to address anything.

a3m24ie said:
TexUs,

What is it that you believe? You've been debating our arguments, but I'm not sure I'm clear on what your position is. That Christians can sin? ("Can" meaning have the capability/capacity to) Or are you arguing something more than that?

I believe Romans 6 is what I believe. The Christian is not RULED or MASTERED BY sin, it does not CONTROL the Christian.

If someone is a "Christian" but goes clubbing every night and takes a girl home for the night, is that someone ruled by sin? Yes. You can question their salvation.
If someone is a Christian but stubs their toe and then yells at their kids in anger, is that someone ruled by sin, or is it the influence of it still present (We are in PART, we are not FULL yet)? That is not someone ruled by sin. Unless of course this person has an anger issue or something, I'm just saying because he's mad he stubbed his toe and takes it out on kids, anger with a brother is sin. But it's not one they intentionally commit.

Thankful 1 · Dec 17, 2010

TexUs said:
Thankful, I won't debate with you if all you do is repetitively post the same stuff over and over again and not attempt to address anything.

I believe Romans 6 is what I believe. The Christian is not RULED or MASTERED BY sin, it does not CONTROL the Christian.

If someone is a "Christian" but goes clubbing every night and takes a girl home for the night, is that someone ruled by sin? Yes. You can question their salvation.
If someone is a Christian but stubs their toe and then yells at their kids in anger, is that someone ruled by sin, or is it the influence of it still present (We are in PART, we are not FULL yet)? That is not someone ruled by sin. Unless of course this person has an anger issue or something, I'm just saying because he's mad he stubbed his toe and takes it out on kids, anger with a brother is sin. But it's not one they intentionally commit.

A sin leading to death is when someone who knowsGod, knows an act is a wrongdoing, and deliberately commits that act. A person has to be willing to commit awrongdoing for it to be a sin leading to death.

TexUs · Dec 17, 2010

Let's look at 1 John closer, shall we?

1 John 5:13 tell us the letter was written to believers to assure their salvation.
John 3:14 and John 5:24 tell us that judgement is of no affect to the believer and that death is behind us! This should set off bells that we can't do something to put death in front of us again.

Why did John write this letter? There is something at work in the church that is threatening their salvation, hence his reason (1 John 5:13) for writing it. In 1 John 4:1-3 we are given an example of what these false teachers are teaching. What did they do? They were separating Jesus from his flesh, hence John's "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" statement.
1 John 3:7 is another warning. These teachers were teaching the Christian life but not living it. So we have them called out by John on both the flesh of Christ as well as the Spirituality of Christ! They were trying to argue the Spiritual without the flesh (IE, living out the righteousness and also separating the flesh from Christ).

Now... That's the big problem John is addressing. How does he address it?
First of all, in 1 John 4:2, he says that Christ has come in the flesh. Not: came. But: come. He IS in the flesh, not separated. Christ is incarnate forever.
As already pointed out in 1 John 3:7, as well as in 1 John 2:29, he says the spiritual life must be accompanied by the spiritual actions.
1 John 3:9, and the verses that you are arguing from, John addresses more proves, anyone who PRACTICES sin is not of Christ.

What else does John do? He rejects the lie and false teaching that being "born again" equates to "sinlessness". Remember, the false teachers were separating the spiritual and the flesh, probably teaching sin was perfectly OK because it was just the flesh, and not the spiritual. (1 John 3:7) Their claims were that Christians did not ever sin. John addresses this in a few places.
1 John 1:8. WE... The BELIEVERS. If we say we ARE, we exist, we presently, have no sin, we are liars.
1 John 2:1. WE... The BELIEVERS. If we do sin, we have an advocate! John does not claim if you sin, you are not born again. Nay, he says an advocate exists! And only those (WE) who are Christians have an advocate. This is key.
1 John 5:16-17. There is a sin that does not lead to death. This is why you can see your BROTHER (believer) committing this sin, sin a believer commits does not lead to death. In John's example, this person is sinning. This person is not headed to death. And yet, HE IS YOUR BROTHER, a BELIEVER!

So how is the believer instructed to deal with this if they do?
1 John 1:9. Confession and cleansing.
1 John 2:1. We run to our advocate and return back to Him.

Thankful 1 · Dec 17, 2010

TexUs said:
Let's look at 1 John closer, shall we?

1 John 5:13 tell us the letter was written to believers to assure their salvation.
John 3:14 and John 5:24 tell us that judgement is of no affect to the believer and that death is behind us! This should set off bells that we can't do something to put death in front of us again.

Why did John write this letter? There is something at work in the church that is threatening their salvation, hence his reason (1 John 5:13) for writing it. In 1 John 4:1-3 we are given an example of what these false teachers are teaching. What did they do? They were separating Jesus from his flesh, hence John's "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" statement.
1 John 3:7 is another warning. These teachers were teaching the Christian life but not living it. So we have them called out by John on both the flesh of Christ as well as the Spirituality of Christ! They were trying to argue the Spiritual without the flesh (IE, living out the righteousness and also separating the flesh from Christ).

Now... That's the big problem John is addressing. How does he address it?
First of all, in 1 John 4:2, he says that Christ has come in the flesh. Not: came. But: come. He IS in the flesh, not separated. Christ is incarnate forever.
As already pointed out in 1 John 3:7, as well as in 1 John 2:29, he says the spiritual life must be accompanied by the spiritual actions.
1 John 3:9, and the verses that you are arguing from, John addresses more proves, anyone who PRACTICES sin is not of Christ.

What else does John do? He rejects the lie and false teaching that being "born again" equates to "sinlessness". Remember, the false teachers were separating the spiritual and the flesh, probably teaching sin was perfectly OK because it was just the flesh, and not the spiritual. (1 John 3:7) Their claims were that Christians did not ever sin. John addresses this in a few places.
1 John 1:8. WE... The BELIEVERS. If we say we ARE, we exist, we presently, have no sin, we are liars.
1 John 2:1. WE... The BELIEVERS. If we do sin, we have an advocate! John does not claim if you sin, you are not born again. Nay, he says an advocate exists! And only those (WE) who are Christians have an advocate. This is key.
1 John 5:16-17. There is a sin that does not lead to death. This is why you can see your BROTHER (believer) committing this sin, sin a believer commits does not lead to death. In John's example, this person is sinning. This person is not headed to death. And yet, HE IS YOUR BROTHER, a BELIEVER!

So how is the believer instructed to deal with this if they do?
1 John 1:9. Confession and cleansing.
1 John 2:1. We run to our advocate and return back to Him.

(1 John 1: 8-10)[sup] “[/sup]If we claim to bewithout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess oursins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us fromall unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in ourlives.”

You need to see John was saying ifone says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they notthen sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertainsthis hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law,because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that inHim there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sinshas never seen Him or known Him. My children do notlet anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He isholy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was asinner from the beginning. It was toundo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins:because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begottenby God.”

(1 John 3:8) “Hewho does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinningfrom the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy thedevil's work”

Johntold us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and wereforgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if aperson who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we shoulddeliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice forthem. There is left only the dreadfulprospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyonewho disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of twowitnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son ofGod, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if itwere not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a farseverer punishment. We are all awarewho it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into thehands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into thelight, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the HolySpirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world tocome and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to berenewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of Godand openly mocked Him.”

TexUs · Dec 17, 2010

You didn't read anything I posted, did you? You're just repeating the same stuff and like I said, I won't debate unless you critically think about this. I outlined John's thoughts in my post and you didn't address any of it. I will address Hebrews if you want me to in my next post.

Thankful 1 · Dec 17, 2010

TexUs said:
You didn't read anything I posted, did you? You're just repeating the same stuff and like I said, I won't debate unless you critically think about this. I outlined John's thoughts in my post and you didn't address any of it. I will address Hebrews if you want me to in my next post.

I told you that teaching you how to read the written Word of God was not my job. You want to believe a Christian is still a sinner that is your concern. You will need to answer to Jesus.

I personally disagree with you, and I know you are wrong. I know Jesus taught me, and I don’t know who taught you.

We would be much better off if we would just ignore each other’s post.

TexUs · Dec 17, 2010

Thankful 1 said:
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we shoulddeliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice forthem. There is left only the dreadfulprospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of twowitnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son ofGod, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if itwere not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a farseverer punishment. We are all awarewho it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into thehands of the living God.”

You're making the assumption that Christians are being spoken of here. Does this passage support the description of a regenerate believer? No. 1 John 2:19 supports the notion, as well as anyone with eyes to see what's going on in the church, that there are those in the church that are not of the church.
What's "knowledge of the truth"? It seems to be talking about knowledge, not faith.

Thankful 1 said:
(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into thelight, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the HolySpirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world tocome and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to berenewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of Godand openly mocked Him.”

Suppose someone has "tasted" the truth of Christ, starts going to church every week, but remains spiritually dead. Their faith is not legitimate. They know all the "head knowledge" that they need to know, thus, there is nothing more to be done for them to come into the faith. So when they fall away from this head knowledge, there's nowhere else they can ever go from that point.
What more could convince a person like this, that has all the knowledge they need? There's nothing else! They've tasted, but still can't come to faith.
So bottom line here, it's not talking of Christians.

Thankful 1 said:
I told you that teaching you how to read the written Word of God was not my job.

"If you don't agree with me then I can't possibly be wrong".
Yeah, that's Biblical:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

I've been wrong before. I've been shown by devout men of God where my views have been wrong Scripturally and I've had to adapt. The above passage tells me this is by design- that's the purpose of the Bible! So as iron sharpens iron- how do you think the Apostle Paul would have felt about a "I won't listen to anything other than my opinion" approach? "All other opinions are wrong except for what I teach"... Does Paul ever speak of anyone other than false teachers when he addresses people like this?

I also suggest if you just "want to be left alone" you don't post your opinions to forums where you are well aware where people will challenge it.

a3m24ie · Dec 17, 2010

Ezekiel 33:18

Maybe it would help to define what sin is. There is a lot in the world that is not sin but people feel condemned by it... for example, anger is not sin. The Bible says "in your anger do not sin" therefore it is possible to be angry yet not sin. Another thing to note is that there are some things we do not to in order to prevent us from sinning ("thowing off everything that hinders") and then there is actual sin we Christians do not do ("and [throwing off] the sin that so easily entangles"). An example of this is alcohol. It's not a sin to drink alcohol. There is no commandment from God saying it is sinful. Getting drunk, however, is a sin... so if we do not want to be drunk, it would be wise to not drink alcohol at all.

There is very likely less sin out there than we make up. If God didn't say it's off limits, than it's not. If authority says it's wrong than it is--for we must respect and obey all authorities (as long as it doesn't contradict God's law--altho don't confuse "contradict" with "add to").

Okay... sorry to spur on this conversation even longer.. but I think this could be an interesting point to add in order to maybe mesh our views. I think what can happen a lot of times that we get so caught up in differences in arguments that we are blinded that we agree down at the base level.

TexUs · Dec 17, 2010

a3m24ie said:
Maybe it would help to define what sin is. There is a lot in the world that is not sin but people feel condemned by it... for example, anger is not sin.

Read Matthew 5.
Anger is Murder, Lust is Adultery, these are the teachings of Christ. Note- it addresses the heart condition and not the act itself!

However I do agree with your larger point.

aspen · Dec 18, 2010

Even Paul lamented about retaining the capacity and tendency to sin. It is apart of the Fall. It simply shows us that we utterly depend on the Father

Thankful 1 · Dec 18, 2010

aspen said:
Even Paul lamented about retaining the capacity and tendency to sin. It is apart of the Fall. It simply shows us that we utterly depend on the Father

Yes when he or she only reads Roman’s seven then one can believe Paul had a difficult time defeating Satan/sin.

Now if one would read Roman’s eight, and ask Jesus to enlighten him or her, they would see that Paul was telling us just how it is that a Christian has defeated Satan/sin.

A Christian is dead to sin.

(Romans 6:2-4) “How can we who died to sin yet live in it?

Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.”

So if one deliberately commits a sin, then at best he or she is a baby Christian.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

(Galatians 5:16) “Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

TexUs · Dec 18, 2010

I can prove there is no God if I simply repeatedly posted verses taken out of context with no exegesis done on them.

Thankful 1 · Dec 19, 2010

A spiritual person will not sin. A Christian is a temple of God where sin does not exist.

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

(John 14:23-24) “Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

(1 John 5:18) “ We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”</SPAN>

a3m24ie · Dec 19, 2010

TexUs said:
Read Matthew 5.
Anger is Murder, Lust is Adultery, these are the teachings of Christ. Note- it addresses the heart condition and not the act itself!

However I do agree with your larger point.

Well, true. It depends on the kind of anger. It says anyone who is "angry without cause" because there IS righteous anger... but yet. In general it's sin--just not always. It's an emotion. Yeah just go with my larger point... that one comes with a technicality that could be debated, but it would take away from the main point.

TexUs · Dec 20, 2010

Thankful, you're fast tracking your way to the ignore list.

Teacher: "What is 2+2?"
Thankful: "5!"
Teacher: "Get out the beans and then count them"
Thankful: "5!"
Teacher: "You didn't even look at the beans"
Thankful: "5!"

Posting the same verses taken out of context with no thought toward context, audience, or intention (exegesis), is just exactly like this.
I suppose if you plug your ears when Scripture contradicts your view, makes your view true?

a3m24ie, Yes, we see God's righteous anger. However most things we stupid people get angry about are not righteous nor just and I think Jesus knew that

His point was that nobody could escape sin. "You already cannot follow my commands, and I'll make it EVEN HARDER just in case someone thinks they can".
Thinking that Christians can't sin is just so contrary to the gospel it's ridiculous. We see from Paul's letters he still struggled in sin even after conversion. We see Peter sinning by teaching a false doctrine in Acts of which Paul had to rebuke him for it.

Thankful 1 · Dec 20, 2010

TexUs said:
Thankful, you're fast tracking your way to the ignore list.

Teacher: "What is 2+2?"
Thankful: "5!"
Teacher: "Get out the beans and then count them"
Thankful: "5!"
Teacher: "You didn't even look at the beans"
Thankful: "5!"

Posting the same verses taken out of context with no thought toward context, audience, or intention (exegesis), is just exactly like this.
I suppose if you plug your ears when Scripture contradicts your view, makes your view true?

a3m24ie, Yes, we see God's righteous anger. However most things we stupid people get angry about are not righteous nor just and I think Jesus knew that His point was that nobody could escape sin. "You already cannot follow my commands, and I'll make it EVEN HARDER just in case someone thinks they can".
Thinking that Christians can't sin is just so contrary to the gospel it's ridiculous. We see from Paul's letters he still struggled in sin even after conversion. We see Peter sinning by teaching a false doctrine in Acts of which Paul had to rebuke him for it.

You apparently are calling your self a Christian. Yet you say that Christian sins. That tells me you are a sinner. Now if I am wrong, please ignore the following.

You see scripture tells us that Christians are dead to sin. So you must not be a Christian.

John tells us that if one sin he or she is of the devil. So then you are telling me that you are of the devil. Why would anyone who wants to know about God listen to anyone who is of the devil?

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”

TexUs · Dec 20, 2010

Thankful 1 said:
You see scripture tells us that Christians are dead to sin. So you must not be a Christian.

And you continently ignore all the context.

[sup]1[/sup] What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? [sup]2[/sup] By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? [sup]3[/sup] Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [sup]4[/sup] We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. *No "does not sin" statements here, just a sense that we don't DWELL in it any longer*
[sup]5[/sup] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. [sup]6[/sup] For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[sup][a][/sup] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— [sup]7[/sup] because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. *No mention of "no more sin", just not ruled or mastered by it*

[sup]8[/sup] Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. [sup]9[/sup] For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. [sup]10[/sup] The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. *Again, MASTERY*

[sup]11[/sup] In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. [sup]13[/sup] Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. [sup]14[/sup] For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. *Hmm, reigning, mastery, no mention of abolishment*

[sup]15[/sup] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! [sup]16[/sup] Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [sup]17[/sup] But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [sup]18[/sup] You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. *Hmmm, here's that pesky mastery/rule thing again*

[sup]19[/sup] I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. [sup]20[/sup] When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. [sup]21[/sup] What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! [sup]22[/sup] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. [sup]23[/sup] For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[sup][b][/sup] Christ Jesus our Lord. *Human limitations, eh? Righteousness that LEADS TO holiness, eh? So we are fallible, limited, and not holy. Free from the CONTROL OF righteousness and now we are free from the CONTROL OF sin.*

Once more, it's easy to take verses out of context to prove a point but looking at the overall context is the mark of a true student of the Word.

Thankful 1 said:
John tells us that if one sin he or she is of the devil. So then you are telling me that you are of the devil. Why would anyone who wants to know about God listen to anyone who is of the devil?
(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

I've already discussed 1 John. It's not my fault if you fail to heed it.

TexUs said:
Let's look at 1 John closer, shall we?

1 John 5:13 tell us the letter was written to believers to assure their salvation.
John 3:14 and John 5:24 tell us that judgement is of no affect to the believer and that death is behind us! This should set off bells that we can't do something to put death in front of us again.

Why did John write this letter? There is something at work in the church that is threatening their salvation, hence his reason (1 John 5:13) for writing it. In 1 John 4:1-3 we are given an example of what these false teachers are teaching. What did they do? They were separating Jesus from his flesh, hence John's "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" statement.
1 John 3:7 is another warning. These teachers were teaching the Christian life but not living it. So we have them called out by John on both the flesh of Christ as well as the Spirituality of Christ! They were trying to argue the Spiritual without the flesh (IE, living out the righteousness and also separating the flesh from Christ).

Now... That's the big problem John is addressing. How does he address it?
First of all, in 1 John 4:2, he says that Christ has come in the flesh. Not: came. But: come. He IS in the flesh, not separated. Christ is incarnate forever.
As already pointed out in 1 John 3:7, as well as in 1 John 2:29, he says the spiritual life must be accompanied by the spiritual actions.
1 John 3:9, and the verses that you are arguing from, John addresses more proves, anyone who PRACTICES sin is not of Christ.

What else does John do? He rejects the lie and false teaching that being "born again" equates to "sinlessness". Remember, the false teachers were separating the spiritual and the flesh, probably teaching sin was perfectly OK because it was just the flesh, and not the spiritual. (1 John 3:7) Their claims were that Christians did not ever sin. John addresses this in a few places.
1 John 1:8. WE... The BELIEVERS. If we say we ARE, we exist, we presently, have no sin, we are liars.
1 John 2:1. WE... The BELIEVERS. If we do sin, we have an advocate! John does not claim if you sin, you are not born again. Nay, he says an advocate exists! And only those (WE) who are Christians have an advocate. This is key.
1 John 5:16-17. There is a sin that does not lead to death. This is why you can see your BROTHER (believer) committing this sin, sin a believer commits does not lead to death. In John's example, this person is sinning. This person is not headed to death. And yet, HE IS YOUR BROTHER, a BELIEVER!

So how is the believer instructed to deal with this if they do?
1 John 1:9. Confession and cleansing.
1 John 2:1. We run to our advocate and return back to Him.

Thankful 1 · Dec 20, 2010

TexUs said:
And you continently ignore all the context.

[sup]1[/sup] What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? [sup]2[/sup] By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? [sup]3[/sup] Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [sup]4[/sup] We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. *No "does not sin" statements here, just a sense that we don't DWELL in it any longer*
[sup]5[/sup] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. [sup]6[/sup] For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[sup][a][/sup] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— [sup]7[/sup] because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. *No mention of "no more sin", just not ruled or mastered by it*

[sup]8[/sup] Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. [sup]9[/sup] For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. [sup]10[/sup] The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. *Again, MASTERY*

[sup]11[/sup] In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. [sup]13[/sup] Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. [sup]14[/sup] For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. *Hmm, reigning, mastery, no mention of abolishment*

[sup]15[/sup] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! [sup]16[/sup] Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [sup]17[/sup] But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [sup]18[/sup] You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. *Hmmm, here's that pesky mastery/rule thing again*

[sup]19[/sup] I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. [sup]20[/sup] When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. [sup]21[/sup] What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! [sup]22[/sup] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. [sup]23[/sup] For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[sup][b][/sup] Christ Jesus our Lord. *Human limitations, eh? Righteousness that LEADS TO holiness, eh? So we are fallible, limited, and not holy. Free from the CONTROL OF righteousness and now we are free from the CONTROL OF sin.*

Once more, it's easy to take verses out of context to prove a point but looking at the overall context is the mark of a true student of the Word.

I've already discussed 1 John. It's not my fault if you fail to heed it.

Like I said those who cannot live a sinlesslife need to make excuses, and read the Word of God in such a way as to makethemselves look righteous.

You keep trying to teach others, and me whenyou need help to understand how one is able to live a sinless life.

Jesus personally taught me, I wonder if youdare say who taught you?

(1 John 1: 8-10)[sup] “[/sup]If we claim to bewithout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess oursins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us fromall unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in ourlives.”

You need to see John was saying ifone says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they notthen sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertainsthis hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law,because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that inHim there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sinshas never seen Him or known Him. My children do notlet anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He isholy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was asinner from the beginning. It was toundo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins:because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begottenby God.”

(1 John 3:8) “Hewho does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinningfrom the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy thedevil's work”

Johntold us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and wereforgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if aperson who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we shoulddeliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice forthem. There is left only the dreadfulprospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyonewho disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of twowitnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son ofGod, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if itwere not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a farseverer punishment. We are all awarewho it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into thehands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who wereonce brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received ashare of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and thepowers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it isimpossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son ofGod and openly mocked Him.”

You see there is a lot more than just John who say a Christian is deadto sin.

TexUs · Dec 20, 2010

It's taken you a whopping 60 posts to compile something resembling a Biblical argument but you finally did.

I am still tired of you not addressing anything that's contrary to your view (as I've done for what you've posted). Thus, if you don't begin addressing these I will not discuss this further with you.

Thankful 1 said:
Like I said those who cannot live a sinlesslife need to make excuses, and read the Word of God in such a way as to makethemselves look righteous.

Then deal with the points of Romans 6 that I brought up. All of them. If you can't or won't, I will not discuss further with you.

Thankful 1 said:
You need to see John was saying ifone says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

Thankful 1 said:
If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they notthen sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?
John later says:

You are, AGAIN, blatantly ignoring parts of the passage. There are two distinct statements made, "If we claim we ARE" and "If we claim we HAVE NOT". Both past and present.
Please explain these distinct differences if you do not believe them to be both past and present. If you can't or don't, I won't discuss further with you.

Thankful 1 said:
Johntold us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and wereforgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Except, he never says that in the passages you quoted.

Thankful 1 said:
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we shoulddeliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice forthem. There is left only the dreadfulprospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyonewho disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of twowitnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son ofGod, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if itwere not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a farseverer punishment. We are all awarewho it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into thehands of the living God.”

Answer these questions. If you can't or don't, I won't discuss further with you.
1) What makes you think this is talking about Christians?
2) Does this passage support the definition of a regenerate believer?
3) What's "knowledge of truth", faith? Or head knowledge?

Thankful 1 said:
(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who wereonce brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received ashare of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and thepowers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it isimpossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son ofGod and openly mocked Him.”

Answer these questions, if you can't or don't, I won't discuss further with you.
1) What's "tasted the truth"? Or, taken in context with Hebrews 10, the "knowledge of truth"?
2) Does this passage describe a regenerate believer?
3) If a person has all the truth/head knowledge but still does not come to faith, what else could possibly be done to lead them to faith?

A Christian: A Temple Of God Where No Sin Exists.

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“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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