The Case Against the Trinity

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Wrangler

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I suspect that we believe the same but are saying it in different ways which may make it appear as different.

Hmm. We both advocate to follow Jesus, the only Lord and Savior of the world. What do you make of this verse? Equality or Hierarchy?


27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
1 Corinthians 15:27 (NLT)
 

Wrangler

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God is exclusively associated with the Father many times throughout Scripture, including ALL of the Epistles. So, God = Father alone and no one else. God and the Father are synonyms in Scripture. NOTE: The failure to acknowledge the non-existent 3rd person of the trinity in the following verses.

And he will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’
Psalm 89:26


“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

For us, there is one God, the Father
1 Corinthians 8:6

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2

May God our Father give you grace and peace.
Colossians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.
1 & 2 Timothy 1:2

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”
God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.
Hebrews 1:5

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring
James 1:27

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy.
1 Peter 1:2

when he received honor and glory from God the Father.
2 Peter 1:17

We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)

Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father
2 John 1:3

He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father.
Revelation 1:6
 

Heart2Soul

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Hmm. We both advocate to follow Jesus, the only Lord and Savior of the world. What do you make of this verse? Equality or Hierarchy?


27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
1 Corinthians 15:27 (NLT)
Again....you are assuming equality of authority....Jesus never tried to usurp His authority/will over the Father's....that's what Satan was attempting to do and got kicked out of heaven.
 

Heart2Soul

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Totally untrue. Jesus said God is greater than he, knows more than he and he is going to God after God raised him from the dead. See John 20:17.
Philippians 2 (KJV)
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¹ If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
² Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
³ Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
⁴ Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 

Wrangler

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Again....you are assuming equality of authority....Jesus never tried to usurp His authority/will over the Father's....that's what Satan was attempting to do and got kicked out of heaven.

I asked you what you thought of the verse. It has nothing to do with my assumptions. If you don't want to answer my question, I understand. ;)
 

Wrangler

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This is a very annoying habit trinitarians employ. Sweep aside verses they don't like in favor of verses they do.

Keep in mind this thread is not meant to debate but strengthen the case against trinitarianism. Admit that John 20:17 reveals the resurrected Jesus is going to his God. Thanks.

17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17 (ESV)
 

Heart2Soul

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Keep in mind this thread is not meant to debate but strengthen the case against trinitarianism. Admit that John 20:17 reveals the resurrected Jesus is going to his God. Thanks.
Keep in mind this thread goes against CB,'s Statement of Faith...
Christianity Board Statement of Faith
Here is an excerpt....
The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)
 

Heart2Soul

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So, you can’t admit that John 20:17 reveals the resurrected Jesus is going to his God?
I believe He went to our Father...what is it that you don't understand about what I believe?
Is this going to be one of those neverending interrogations that ends up nowhere?
John 20 (KJV)
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¹⁵ Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
¹⁶ Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
¹⁷ Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Totally untrue. Jesus said God is greater than he, knows more than he and he is going to God after God raised him from the dead. See John 20:17.

You fail to understand the Person of Jesus Christ. From all eternity Jesus Christ IS YHWH, Almighty God, absolutely EQUAL to God the Father.

The Bible teaches that there is only One God (2. Deuteronomy 6:4, etc)

That The Father is God, is not disputed by anyone.

However, the Bible also teaches that there are more than one "Person", Who is called God, distinct from the Father. In Isaiah 9:6, which is a Prophecy of Jesus Christ, it says that His Name is "’êl Gibbôr", which is "Mighty God", with the capital "G". The same Hebrew is used in 10:21; Jeremiah 32:18; etc. We know from John 1:1, that "the Word" is firstly said to be "with God", where the use of the Greek preposition, "πρός", shows that "the Word" is DISTINCT from "God". Then John goes on to say about "the Word", that He is "God" (και θεος ην ο λογος). Again, when Jesus Himself speaks of Himself and the Father, He uses the "masculine PLURAL", as in John 10:30, "εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν", where the literal translation is, "I and the Father one We are". This is impossible to be taken to mean, that Jesus and the Father are One and the same Person! Paul also says in Philippians 2:5-6, that Jesus Christ existed from all eternity in the very nature of God (ος εν μορφη θεου). In this same verse Paul says, "το ειναι ισα θεω", that is, "on be on equality with God", which again must be another "Person", with Whom Jesus Christ has been "equal" from all eternity. This "equality" is what Jesus "laid aside" when He took upon Himself, "the very nature of humans" (αλλ εαυτον εκενωσεν μορφην δουλου λαβων), with the exception of sin.

Hebrews 2:9 tells us that Jesus became "lower" even than the angels, because of His suffering and death.

"But we behold Him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, [even] Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every [man]"

The words "a little lower", means, "for a little while”, showing that it was only during His Incranation.

Jesus Himself says that He was The Servant, as Mark 10:45 says, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”. He also said that the "A servant is not greater than his master." (John 15:20). God the Father during Jesus' Incarnation, was "the Master", and Jesus Christ was His "Servant". Hence the subordinate role. However, even during this time, Jesus could demand that ALL people were to "Honor" Him, in exactly the same way they "Honored" The Father. And, those who did not "Honor" Him, did not "Honor", the Father,m Who sent Him. (John 5:23). Not only is this very clear personal testimony from Jersus Christ on His own Deity and equality with the Father; But, the fact that He says that the Father "sent" Him, where the verb "πέμπω", is used for one person sending another. Which clearly shows DISTINCTION between Jesus and His Father!

It is also very clear from passages like John 17:5, that this "subordination" of Jesus to the Father, was functional, during His earthly life. As Jesus says that He shared the SAME "Glory" with the Father from all eternity, and after His Ascension, was returning to this state.

"And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was"
 

Wrangler

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I believe He went to our Father...what is it that you don't understand about what I believe?

The question is not about him going to the Father. The text in John 20:17 says Father, yes, but it also explicitly says God. That is my question; do you believe Jesus went to God (as the text explicitly states)?
 

MatthewG

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Trinity.

Use to be heavily involved with this theological stance, which uses only a few verses to make the claim of the Trinity existing. Some hold on to this so closely to their own heart, that anyone who claims that they may say things differently compared to the whole context of scripture, that those who think differently need to be cut off, they are not Christian.

Who has the right and authority to cut off believers, because they may not think or accept the way someone may believe? The answer is no one does. There are people in this world who believe they have the right to dominate, even besmirch a persons character, and down-cast them as if they are not a believer in God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thankfully it has been made known to me about these things; though in this world there are many different denominations, and if someone believes the trinity or agrees with it, or whatever does not mean they need to be corrected, though each person can express their views of what they see using the scriptures and what is the truth of the matter, if we only use knowledge which puffs us up, and have no love towards others.

A person has nothing, even with all the knowledge that they have.

(1 Corinthians 8:1-3 - (Talking about food however any type of knowledge applies as well - not against learning and having knowledge but if it removes your love then that is a problem and it is wrong if anyone is trying to control you, persecute you for not following the ways of tradition of men even that of not being a Christian in accordance of their own foundation and not the foundation laid on Christ Jesus.)

God is Love -> As Christian believers you should be able to by the spirit love, others regardless of their own free-will choice to make their own decisions. You can bring forth what you know but if they do not agree, love still either way.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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You are the one who fails to understand John 20:17 explicitly states Jesus saying he is going to his God (not merely the Father, but God, in his unitarian nature).

Jesus here says, "προς τον πατερα μου", that it literally, "to the side of My Father", which is the force of the Greek preposition, "προς". How can this be Unitarian, if there are TWO DISTINCT Persons? Forget your theology, that Bible is clearly against what you personally believe. You simply cannot say from this verse, that Jesus Christ and The Father, are One and the same Person. the Greek grammar does NOT allow for this.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Trinity.

Use to be heavily involved with this theological stance, which uses only a few verses to make the claim of the Trinity existing. Some hold on to this so closely to their own heart, that anyone who claims that they may say things differently compared to the whole context of scripture, that those who think differently need to be cut off, they are not Christian.

Who has the right and authority to cut off believers, because they may not think or accept the way someone may believe? The answer is no one does. There are people in this world who believe they have the right to dominate, even besmirch a persons character, and down-cast them as if they are not a believer in God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thankfully it has been made known to me about these things; though in this world there are many different denominations, and if someone believes the trinity or agrees with it, or whatever does not mean they need to be corrected, though each person can express their views of what they see using the scriptures and what is the truth of the matter, if we only use knowledge which puffs us up, and have no love towards others.

A person has nothing, even with all the knowledge that they have.

(1 Corinthians 8:1-3 - (Talking about food however any type of knowledge applies as well - not against learning and having knowledge but if it removes your love then that is a problem and it is wrong if anyone is trying to control you, persecute you for not following the ways of tradition of men even that of not being a Christian in accordance of their own foundation and not the foundation laid on Christ Jesus.)

God is Love -> As Christian believers you should be able to by the spirit love, others regardless of their own free-will choice to make their own decisions. You can bring forth what you know but if they do not agree, love still either way.

No one can ever be a True Christian who denies that God IS eternally Trinity. It is against the very Foundation of the God of the Bible, as taught in the Bible. John 1:1 for example, destroys any notion that God is One Person!
 

MatthewG

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No one can ever be a True Christian who denies that God IS eternally Trinity. It is against the very Foundation of the God of the Bible, as taught in the Bible. John 1:1 for example, destroys any notion that God is One Person!

Hello byGracethroughfaith,

Thank you for your insights, and viewpoints. :)
 
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