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Hammerstone, I think your point is a valid one. Whether the cake has an image on it or its an ordinary cake, the issue is still the same. Should a person be forced to have their business perform an act that violates their conscience or religious convictions? Clearly, there are some tensions...

I understand you believe that "believers are taken, nonbelievers are left behind." My question is, where are you getting this? I asked you what Bible verse teaches a secret rapture of believers from the earth. Your response was, "Matthew 24:40-41" So, I'm asking where these verses does it...

justaname, Thanks for your response. I do not disagree with the meaning of "until." However, I do disagree with the phrase "full number." Pleroma is never used in the NT in the numerical sense. In fact, this same word is used in verse 12. The word simply means fullness. Paul is referring...

I agree that Jesus is talking about his Second Coming. I don't understand what you are saying. You used this verse to prove the rapture will be a secret event ("one will be taken, another will be left") and then you say this does not describe believers in Christ. So which is it? Does it...

Ok, well Matt 24:40-41 is not 1 Thess 4:14-17. That helps. Let me ask, who are those who are "taken" and who are "left" behind in Matt 24:40-41? What verse tells you that its the Christians/faithful who are "taken"?

Stan, As I see it, Romans 11:7, 8, 10 indicate that God has a hand in the hardening. I agree with you that the hardening of Israel was mostly self-inflicted due to unbelief, so that issue doesn't bother me in the least. In fact, it wouldn't impact my views in the least if all of the hardening...

What in these verses says "secret" to you? I am really trying to understand that from your perspective. I see a very audible, and visible event complete with trumpets, angels, the dead coming out of their graves and destruction coming upon the unbelieving.

I agree that 1 Thess. 4:14-17 is the word of God. However, this does not teach a secret rapture. Rather, it is quite audible (loud shout, voice of the archangel and trumpet call of God), and visible (Lord descending from heaven, dead being raised and believers being caught up in the air with...

I think people need to define what they mean by "rapture." For some, rapture means the Second Coming of Christ that gathers the good and the wicked for judgment. For others, they mean a "secret rapture" of the church either prior to or after a particular end times scenario involving an...

Paul says "in this way all Israel will be saved." I agree that this is speaking of national Israel (as the context demands it). However, the issue being addressed by Paul here is not the number of Israelites being saved, but the manner by which they are saved. Essentially, Paul is saying...

Jim, Martin Luther was not thrown out of the Church because he agreed with all the traditions and practices of the Church. Moreover, his 95 Theses, that attacked indulgences primarily and supported sola fide were condemned by Pope Leo X in 1520. So it does not seem to me that Luther was...

For the record, I don't think Romans 11 is referring to "spiritual Israel." I just don't think Paul is speaking of the future salvation of the entire nation. See my previous comment on those texts.

Aspen, I would simply remind you that there are other forces at work in your life than the people and circumstances around you. The enemy would seek to ruin you through these trials whereas God is desiring to refine and purify your faith. Trust the Lord that as you hope in him, he will...

Well, I'm not going to derail the OP to go on a tangent with you about whether or not 2/3 of the NT is evil and anti-Christ. If you want to start a thread on this issue go for it. Let's keep this discussion focused on the topic at hand. Jesus himself tells his disciples to stop...

Well, its clear where you stand on the authority of the New Testament. I suppose if we cannot agree on what constitutes God's word, than there isn't much room for discussion here on how we understand the will of God. As a side note, Mark and Luke were both Paul's traveling companions who...

I would agree that the biblical command to exclude someone from fellowship would not likely include the silent treatment or pretending they do not exist. How else would someone know if they did repent and were in a place to be reinstated in the community? I think it does include refusing to...

pom, As Christians, we accept the Bible as inspired by God. Are you suggesting that Paul was not inspired and that not all of the NT is the word of God? Im just trying to be clear about where you stand on revelation.

I am at a loss for words. I don't know how the biblical command to avoid or cast a person out who is divisive and wicked from the local fellowship so they might be convicted of their sin as comparable to killing them or physically beating them. Are you telling me that if you attended a church...

I would say the Protestant model encourages everyone to be accountable to God based on his Word rather than being accountable to a man who acts as a filter for God's Word. In a dictatorship, you have one authority and one voice and therefore the direction of the country would be unchallenged...

You shudder when you hear that people will follow Jesus at any cost? I don't think anyone is saying "the end justifies the means." That implies the "means" are evil and I don't think discipline or the direct instruction of Jesus and the NT is evil. If we cant read the direct instruction of...