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Doesn't work--Christ said "He is with you and will be in you" and that was what happened on Pentecost. Pentecost is the day the Law was given. The Holy Spirit is the New method of service Romans 6:14. It makes sense the New would take over on the same day as the Old was issued. Now the New says...

That material is all over the web.

If it were me I'd just write "These are citations for Jews referring to 'natural birth' as 'born of water' in Jesus's day".

I will be able to check their citations.

So you ask me to go to your site but youre unwilling to go there and copy paste material?

No you didn't. You said "such and such a book" but that doesn't prove ancient Israelites spoke or thought that way. Show me ancient Jewish citations.

You'd think you'd be able to share their citations.

I bring my arguments and substantiation here, you also bring yours here. I'm not asking anyone to do something I'm not willing to do.

This was the consequential claim. Please substantiate this.

Who says "born of water" was understood at the time and place as referring to "natural birth"?

Do not attack me as "unable" just because YOU refuse to do YOUR work.

Thanks for sharing.

LOL I meant I wanted to hear what everyone had to say about it. This isn't about Catholicism (it isn't only Catholics who believe in it).

I wasn't asking you TO see it that way but whether you HAD--I don't need anything from you or anyone else.

I am not speaking about Catholicism here and then asking others not to speak about it. That is a false accusation which is a violation of the Decalogue. Control yourself. If you can't control your tongue your religion is worthless.

I think you are coming to the conversation with your own baggage and reading that in to what I'm saying rather than just taking me at my word. The point was that the Word is called "water"-"washing" isn't the discussion. "Gave Himself up for her" gives it away : this is talking about...

Please do not infer there is a problem with my mind as it is completely uncalled for. Just discuss the material. The problem is they received the Spirit without water baptism and Peter says this was just as at the first when the Spirit had fallen on them and they also were praising God in...

So baptism by blood (martyrdom before water baptism) brings them into Christ like water baptism? Seems like a conflation of the phrase of Jesus "with the baptism with which I am baptized" and the assumption that water baptism brings us into Christ.

No, Peter explains this was just as the Spirit had fallen on them on Pentecost when they had had cloven tongues of fire over their heads and spoke in other languages glorifying God. How is this relevant? The point is there was rebirth and I filling without water baptism. I agree there seem...

Here's a good debate on it. LOL It's 4 hours long. Enjoy! I thought both sides had good points but that baptismal regeneration lost out.