‘Impossible’ fossils cast doubt on evolution

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Angelina

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River Jordan

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When Christians post this sort of nonsense under the banner of Christianity, this is the sort of impression we give of our faith (from the comments in the article)...


This is a perfect example of terrible, dishonest journalism. Before even getting into the content of it’s claims, the article lacks any citations for those claims. Additionally, I couldn’t find a legitimate source for the quotations from Mihai Andrei that wasn’t some creationist or pseudoscience website with an agenda. There is good reason to believe that the quote has been fabricated, or altered drastically from the origin statement.

Now, on to these “discoveries”. They have actually been debunked and shown to be examples of fraud by actual scientists working in the field.

The human hand imprint: http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hand.htm

The finger: http://paleo.cc/paluxy/finger.htm

The footprint: http://paleo.cc/paluxy/delk.htm

The London hammer: http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm
http://www.badarchaeology.com/out-of-place-artefacts/very-ancient-artefacts/the-london-artifact/

In addition to the above refutations from the experts (refutations that I’m confident you will not bother to read), lets see what creationist websites have to say about Carl Baugh, the person that supposedly unearthed these four relics:

“[Baugh] uses a lot of material that is not sound scientifically. So we advise against relying on any ‘evidence’ he provides, unless supported by creationist organisations with reputations for Biblical and scientific rigour.”

http://creation.com/arguments-we-think-creationists-should-not-use

To conclude, your article is a poor attempt at discrediting the scientific experts in the field while spreading fallacious and fraudulent artifacts as evidence of a young Earth. Your article also did not cite it’s sources. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this poor piece of journalism.
As Christians, we are to be honest and truthful in all we do and say. This article most certainly is not.
 

StanJ

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The internet is replete with these kind of stories, but sadly even those claiming to be believers won't accept them. It's nice to read some actual unbiased truth every once in a while but the bottom line is faith. We either have it and believe what the Bible tells us, or we don't.
It's not about trying to make our faith fit into so-called evolutionary facts, it's about believing that our faith contradicts these so-called facts and move from there. We don't need to prove God, we just need to believe Him, and that includes His written/inspired account of creation.
 

River Jordan

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Angelina said:
Oh hi RJ!
Good to see you again.., :D I found that the comments section was quite interesting when I read it also! :p
Thanks! :)

I know it's tempting to trust websites like the one in the OP, especially when they tickle your ears by telling you what you want to hear (essentially "evolution is all wrong and creationism is right"), but this one? It's so ridiculously dishonest, Christians should be appalled that such falsehoods are being promoted in the name of our faith.
 

Angelina

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Not really appalled at all. It's kinda like the proverbial evolutionary pot calling this particular theory kettle, black. :) How many times has dishonesty been found in evolutionary theories that have turned out to be false. Darwin himself admitted that no transitional species had been uncovered at the time he came up this his theory.

"Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?… But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?… Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."(Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280)

Bless ya! ;)
 

River Jordan

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Angelina said:
Not really appalled at all. It's kinda like the proverbial evolutionary pot calling this particular theory kettle, black. :) How many times has dishonesty been found in evolutionary theories that have turned out to be false.
I don't know....I can only think of a handful of deliberate frauds or hoaxes in the 160 year history of evolutionary biology. Piltdown Man, Haeckel's drawings, and archeoraptor (which never was accepted by paleontologists) are the only ones that come to mind.

Now contrast that with the falsehoods just on this one creationist website! If there's more dishonesty on a single creationist website than in the entire history of evolutionary biology, that should tell you something.

Darwin himself admitted that no transitional species had been uncovered at the time he came up this his theory.

"Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?… But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?… Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."[/size](Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280)

Bless ya! ;)
Well, here's the thing.....my guess is you didn't pull that quote from your personal copy of On the Origin of Species. Instead, my bet is you got this from some creationist source who presented it in much the same way you have, i.e., kinda like "See? Even Darwin admitted there aren't any transitional fossils!". The problem is (if I'm correct about you copying the quote), your source is deceiving you, in much the same way as your source in the OP. You see, Darwin liked to write in a particular way; specifically he'd write what he thought were objections to his proposals, and then he would address them one by one. The creationist source you copied this from told you about Darwin describing an objection someone might make about the fossil record, but they didn't tell you about his subsequent answers to it! :eek:

Now to me, that makes me pretty angry. Why would a supposed Christian be so deliberately dishonest? Not only that, why would they then make their dishonesty public and encourage unwitting Christians to propagate it further? Do they not care about honesty? Do they think lying is acceptable as long as it's done in the name of The Lord? I honestly have no idea.

I mean, let's just look at this part of what you quoted: "But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?…" See that "..." at the end? That means Darwin wrote something there, but the person you copied this from cut that part out. Sometimes that's just fine, e.g., if the part being cut out isn't relevant to the point. But in this case, here is the very next sentence that your source cut out: "It will be more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the Geological Record; and I will here only state that I believe the answer mainly lies in the record being incomparably less perfect than is generally supposed. The crust of the earth is a vast museum; but the natural collections have been imperfectly made, and only at long intervals of time."

So in that sentence, Darwin does two things. First he says "I'll answer this more fully in a later Chapter" (which he did), and then he says "But here's a brief summary of my answer". But your source cut that part out. Why? It's clearly relevant to the point your source was trying to make, right? To me, the answer is obvious; your source didn't want you to see that part, or know that Darwin only posed the challenge so he could address it. Not only that, but I'd bet your source is also counting on you to give them the benefit of the doubt and never bother to fact-check anything they tell you.

That's horrible, and can't be chalked up to ignorance or some other good-faith error. It's clearly deliberate and dishonest, and it's the exact sort of thing the commentor at the OP site chastised Christian creationists for (spreading falsehoods). It's also the very sort of thing I was talking about when I said, "As Christians, we are to be honest and truthful in all we do and say. This article most certainly is not."

Christians should not be engaging in such blatant dishonesty in the cause of advocating for Christ (and just so we're clear, I'm not saying you're being dishonest....I think you've just been duped a bit). I'd advise you to be much more careful before trusting creationist websites. Don't be afraid to go look for yourself, and if you see dishonesty like this, call them on it and most certainly don't trust them again.
 
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Angelina

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Biology is a science, Evolution is not. It is a theory that stretches to find other alternatives of our existence outside of God because of fear that mankind will one day meet their maker. :D Mr Darwin would have had such an experience by now!

Bless ya!
 

River Jordan

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Angelina said:
Biology is a science, Evolution is not. It is a theory that stretches to find other alternatives of our existence outside of God because of fear that mankind will one day meet their maker.
Well that's kinda weird, since the majority of "evolutionists" believe in God. I mean, how does what you say mesh with people like Francis Collins, head of the National Institute of Health, head of the Human Genome Project, "evolutionist", and Christian? Or even me....a biologist, "evolutionist", and Christian?

None of that makes sense if what you say is true.
 

Angelina

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Tell me RJ where are the facts that back up your point that the majority of evolutionists believe in God and what branch of evolutionists are you referring to? Theists? Naturalists? or those who hold to the deist position? :huh: It is interesting that Mr Obama had chosen Mr Collins as director of the DIH since Mr Obama has shown himself to be leaning more toward the Muslim rather than Christian communities.

Bless ya!
 

Deborah_

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Angelina said:
Not really appalled at all. It's kinda like the proverbial evolutionary pot calling this particular theory kettle, black. :) How many times has dishonesty been found in evolutionary theories that have turned out to be false.
I'm even more appalled by statements like this. Even if some evolutionists are less than honest, what excuse does that give Christians to follow suit? The stakes are so high in this debate... we cannot afford to score any 'own goals'.
 

Angelina

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I'm not trying to score any goals Deborah and thanks for your support on this. You should actually quote my whole comment and not just a portion of it.

Angelina said:
Not really appalled at all. It's kinda like the proverbial evolutionary pot calling this particular theory kettle, black. :) How many times has dishonesty been found in evolutionary theories that have turned out to be false. Darwin himself admitted that no transitional species had been uncovered at the time he came up this his theory.

"Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?… But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?… Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."(Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280)

Bless ya! ;)
The stakes are so high in this debate...
Yes and I think I am doing extremely well for someone who does not believe in the evolution or creation hypothesis but rather what the bible teaches us about how God created the universe and everything in it that pertains to life.

Well that's kinda weird, since the majority of "evolutionists" believe in God
RJ can you please quote where these stats are found.

Bless ya!
 

Deborah_

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Angelina, I didn't quote the whole of your comment because I was only commenting on the first part of it. The second half is really opening up a different issue altogether.
 

Angelina

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Deborah ~ The comment I made was directed toward the whole conversation. It was one paragraph, I was not discussing two separate issues. :huh: PS; I should have said "young earth creationist hypothesis". IMHO walking through a multitude of doctrinal beliefs as recent as they are, is like walking through a mine field. I'm sure that our Lord did not intend such things in the beginning...
 

River Jordan

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Angelina said:
Tell me RJ where are the facts that back up your point that the majority of evolutionists believe in God and what branch of evolutionists are you referring to? Theists? Naturalists? or those who hold to the deist position?
If you look at this paper: Public Acceptance of Evolution, you'll see that in the developed world the majority of the public recognize the reality of evolution. Couple that with data showing that atheists make up about 2-13% of the population in the developed world, and the conclusion is that the majority of people who accept the reality of evolution also believe in God (2-13% of the population cannot make up a majority).

In light of that, your claim that evolution is just something people made up to deny God doesn't seem to match up to reality.

It is interesting that Mr Obama had chosen Mr Collins as director of the DIH since Mr Obama has shown himself to be leaning more toward the Muslim rather than Christian communities.
??????????? What in the world does that have to do with the fact that Dr. Collins is both a prominent scientist and Christian?

And honestly, I can't tell you how disappointing it is to see you post that dishonestly edited quote from Darwin again. Did the fact that it was deliberately taken out of context not bother you at all?
 

River Jordan

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Deborah_ said:
I'm even more appalled by statements like this. Even if some evolutionists are less than honest, what excuse does that give Christians to follow suit? The stakes are so high in this debate... we cannot afford to score any 'own goals'.
I keep seeing the same extreme tribalism over and over. It seems some folks mostly think of this in terms of who's on what team (IOW, if someone from their team says or does something against the other team, they'll support it no matter what), rather than the actual facts of the situation.

And that's exactly what the dishonest creationists behind those mined quotes are counting on.
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
I am ashamed when I see things like this.

It is just plain foolish to fight against science Long ago, the Church, sure that the Earth was the center of the universe...based, of course, on what they understood the Creation story in Genesis said....fought bitterly against Galileo, who said that the Sun was the center of the Solar System, and the Earth was a planet that, along with other planets, revolved around that sun.
Obviously, the Church lost that battle. And guess what? Our blessed faith survived.

Now, I don't know too much about the theory of evolution...only what I was taught in science class, back in the tenth grade in high school. Personally, I believe that God created all the different kinds/species, and evolution pretty much consists of these species adapting to their environment. I very much doubt the scenario where there is a puddle of "primordial ooze" which gets hit by lightning, and voila...living cells are born from inorganic sludge. After all, a finch with a shorter beak is still a finch...
 

Angelina

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Hi RJ,
Thanks for your reply. The link you provided does not open on my computer. Can you send another? The point you made in post #10 was ~ "Well that's kinda weird, since the majority of "evolutionists" believe in God." Do you have data that supports your claim? because based on what you have provided in your comments, you have targeted the public rather than true evolutionists who believe in God.

??????????? What in the world does that have to do with the fact that Dr. Collins is both a prominent scientist and Christian?
I find his choices interesting that Mr Obama has chosen a Theistic evolutionist Christian to head the DIH. Was that a crime??? :huh:

Barrd no-one is fighting against science. In actual fact I believe that science should compliment scripture.

Personally, I believe that God created all the different kinds/species, and evolution pretty much consists of these species adapting to their environment.
So you are saying that these species evolved over time? Are you a Theistic evolutionist then or do you hold to a deist view?

I would like to remind members that this is a discussion forum. Which means that members can discuss issues pertaining to christian thought and members should be treated with respect without the "I am ashamed, appalled, dishonest" comments coming from the peanut gallery. I have a right to my opinion and no topic is exempt from being thoroughly investigated.

Bless y'all
 
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