“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

[guysmith]

“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

To me, this verse sums up the gospel according to Paul. However, when Christ spoke these words….

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

….Christ had not been crucified and raised from the dead, so His message (this gospel) wasn’t talking about the plan of salvation according to Paul. Any ideas what “THIS’’ gospel might be that Christ was talking about?

 

[Dodo_David]

Messiah Jesus told His disciples that He was going to be executed and then He would be resurrected. So, He gave the Gospel message about His resurrection before His resurrection took place.

Messiah Jesus demonstrated that He was Lord before His crucifixion took place.

Also, John 3:16 appears prior to the Messiah's crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Guy ..... I see Romans 10:9 as a "salvation topic" , yes ....

But I see Matthew 24:14 more as a "signs of the end topic"

One of the reasons I see it that way is the pronounced similarity to a verse in Revelation



Matthew 24:24 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

Revelation 14:6 ...... Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.



As usual I didnt answer your original question ... just sharing my way of interpreting what Jesus (may have) meant .

I have said it before Guy Smith .... I think you have one of the sharpest minds I have ever encountered . It is like you have a gift of spotting important things the rest of us often overlook .... dont ever change !!!!! .... some day I would like to read your "summary of everything"

Arnie M.

.....................................
EDIT ... also wanted to mention Rev says "eternal" gospel .... I wonder if it is supposed to mean the gospel "existed" before Jesus or Paul even spoke those words ..... just something else to ponder why Jesus said it the way he did ....

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, guysmith.

“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

To me, this verse sums up the gospel according to Paul. However, when Christ spoke these words….

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

….Christ had not been crucified and raised from the dead, so His message (this gospel) wasn’t talking about the plan of salvation according to Paul. Any ideas what “THIS’’ gospel might be that Christ was talking about?

Good! I'm glad you noticed this! The "gospel of the kingdom" is simply the "good news about the Kingdom!" What good news?

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

Both Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) and Yeshua` (Jesus) were heralding (Greek: keerussoon = "to herald as a town crier" translated as "preach") this gospel at the very beginning of Yeshua`s official offer of that Kingdom (His "ministry")!


NT:2784 keerussoo (kay-roos'-so); of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):
KJV - preacher (-er), proclaim, publish.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV

Matthew 9:35-36
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
KJV

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

This is NOT the "gospel" that is taught and believed today! Most think the definition of the "gospel" is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV

That's an error, because this passage is NOT a definition! Verses 3 and 4 are EXTENSIONS to the gospel! The key is in the title "Christ," the Anglicized form of the Greek "Christos," which in turn is the translation of the Hebrew title "Mashiach" or as it has been transliterated into English through Greek and Latin, "Messiah." This is a Hebrew word meaning "Anointed One," but it refers specifically in prophetic passages to the ONE who was anointed to be KING as God's Representative!

It's most interesting that in the account of Mark 1:14-15, Yeshua` gives NO explanation for what He was talking about! It was NOT about His "death, burial, and resurrection," because few at that time knew Him to be the Messiah let alone believed that the Messiah was supposed to die, and they didn't even SUSPECT that He would come back to life! Consider Kefa's (Peter's) words much LATER:

Matthew 16:20-22
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
KJV

And Kefa was just voicing the way ALL the disciples felt! Remember after the transfiguration?

Mark 9:9-10
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the "rising from the dead" should mean.
KJV

As I've said many times before in other threads, "salvation" doesn't mean what most people think it means, especially in prophetic passages! It's not a word that is talking about gaining personal acceptance from God! It's about RESCUE! And, in particular, this is talking about the rescue of the Hebrew people when they are threatened by their neighboring nations!

Many will use Romans 10:13 as part of the "Romans Road to Salvation":

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

But, look at the surrounding context and look at the context from whence it was quoted!

Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

Verse 15 is a quote from Isaiah 52:7 above, and verse 13 is a quote from Joel 2:32:

Joel 2:23-3:2
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV

So, "salvation" is God's DELIVERANCE of His people Isra'el, particularly Judah and Jerusalem! It is their RESCUE that Yeshua` will perform when He comes again in the Second Coming or the Second Advent!

This is something that many Christians don't understand and thus they misinterpret Yochanan's (John's) words when he sent some of his disciples to Yeshua` to ask Him,


Matthew 11:2-3
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"
KJV


Yochanan was not "losing faith" or "doubting" in any way! See, the rabbis had long discussed the Messianic prophecies even before Yeshua` came the first time. All the prophecies about the Messiah seem to fit into two very different camps, a suffering and dying Messiah (that they called "haMashiach ben Yosef" or "the Messiah son of Joseph") and a conquering and reigning Messiah (that they called "haMashiach ben Daviyd" or "the Messiah son of David). "The Messiah son of Joseph" does not refer to Mary's "Joseph," but to the "Joseph" who suffered at the hands of his brothers, was sold into slavery, and wound up in a prison in Egypt. He was the "son of Joseph" as in FOLLOWING THE PATTERN of Joseph. Some rabbis actually believed that there would be TWO Messiahs, each one fulfilling his respective set of prophecies.

So, because the Jews had rejected the herald (Yochanan) and was in the process of rejecting the Messiah Yeshua`, Yochanan (John) was saying to Him, "I can see that you are Messiah the Son of Joseph. Are you also the Messiah that should come, i.e., Messiah the Son of David, or should we look for another Messiah?"

Yeshua` answered him by performing the miracles that the Messiah Son of David was to perform. And, that settled the matter for both Yochanan and his disciples. Yeshua` showed him that He was ONE Messiah with TWO comings! There was no doubt in Yochanan's question; he was simply seeking clarification!

So, back to the gospel of the Kingdom: Yeshua` didn't HAVE to explain what that "gospel of the Kingdom" was! They READ ABOUT IT EVERY YEAR! Every year the Jews would read through the Torah (the first five books of the Bible - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy - that they called "Beresheet," "Shmowt," "Vayikraa," "Bmidbar," and "Dvariym"). In the additional readings (the Haftarah) from other books of the Tanakh (the Old Testament), every 4 Elul (this last year that occurred on August 10) they would read Isaiah 51:12-52:12! They would read and study and discuss this portion of the Scriptures for a week! So, all Yeshua` had to do was say, "The time has come, God's Kingdom is within your grasp, repent (turn around 180 degrees) and believe the good news!"

Just as J. R. R. Tolkien wrote,...

And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the Ring passed out of all knowledge.
— Lady Galadriel, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

... in the same way, the Jews had become calloused to the prophecies! They had NEGLECTED and FORGOTTEN the REALITY behind them! Thus, they were NOT READY when Yeshua` came on the scene! Therefore, they had to be washed in the mikvah of the Yarden River (baptism was originally a JEWISH cleansing ritual) and REMINDED through the teachings of Yochanan and Yeshua`.

This has been a lot of information, but hopefully it won't be too overwhelming.

P.S. - I should have mentioned that it is THIS "gospel of the Kingdom" to which Yeshua` was referring in Matthew 24:14. Therefore, it has barely BEGUN to be heralded! And, if this is what we must see come to pass before "the end can come," then we've got some work to do!

 

[guysmith]

I have said it before Guy Smith .... I think you have one of the sharpest minds I have ever encountered . It is like you have a gift of spotting important things the rest of us often overlook .... dont ever change !!!!! .... some day I would like to read your "summary of everything"

Arnie M.

Contact me.

 

[Quantrill]

“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

To me, this verse sums up the gospel according to Paul. However, when Christ spoke these words….

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

….Christ had not been crucified and raised from the dead, so His message (this gospel) wasn’t talking about the plan of salvation according to Paul. Any ideas what “THIS’’ gospel might be that Christ was talking about?

It is the same gospel John the Baptist and Jesus first preached to Israel. Jn.3:2, Matt.4:17,23, Matt.10:6,16-23

Quantrill

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I get the feeling that the gospel is nothing more than righteousness by faith - in whatever form that might be.

Hebrews 4:2, speaking about the Jews, reads:

"For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did"

The gospel to them was the promise of rest in the land he had prepared for them.

They rejected that gospel, and were subjected to the curse of the law.

However, since the promised offer of rest "remained" (Hebrews 4:1), it was made available to the Gentiles - this time by believing in Christ (although of course, Christ was always central, and everpresent, in any of the gospel "forms" (1 Cor 10:3,4) .

 

[veteran]

Arnie is correct about the context of that verse within Christ's Olivet Discourse of signs about the end.

Matt 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(KJV)

Some of Christ's elect servants here on earth are going to be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give His Testimony against them, by... The Holy Spirit speaking through them. The Greek for "preached" means a herald, especially of divine truth (per Strong's no. 2784).

This event is particular to those end time tribulation events our Lord Jesus was giving there. I know it is traditionally interpreted to mean that The Gospel must be taken to all nations giving them a chance to hear, but for during the tribulation the opposite working against doing that is going to manifest by Satan's host who will be in control here. Instead in that time we will be hated for Christ's sake, and that means The Gospel too. The signs of trying to silence The Gospel in the once predominantly Christian west have already been showing up today.

So what that verse is really about is when Christ's faithful who will refuse to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ in place of our Lord Jesus, they will be hated and delivered up in front of Satan's hosts here on earth, and that... is when this Gospel will be heraled to all the world, for I have no doubt those councils and trials some of us will be tested with will be made public internationally. God is going to speak to the whole world through them during the tribulation when Satan and his hosts have full control over the earth in the near future. But it won't be just us only, but God's "two witnesses" that are to appear in Jerusalem also for that tribulation time.

Some of you need to hear this and understand.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Quantrill.

It is the same gospel John the Baptist and Jesus first preached to Israel. Jn.3:2, Matt.4:17,23, Matt.10:6,16-23

Quantrill

I'll say it again, who during the "ministry" of Yeshua` (Jesus) believed that Yeshua` would have to die? If they believed that He was the Messiah, they would choose to believe that He would reign forever as His ancestor Daveed. So, there was a SUCCESSION of things necessary for one to believe if they were going to believe what people today call the "gospel":

First, one would have to believe that God was indeed sending His Messiah to Isra'el as promised.
Then, one would have to believe that Yeshua` from Natsaret was indeed this Messiah of God.
Then, one would have to believe that His Messiah would be rejected and die, as predicted.
Then, one would have to understand that His Messiah would be brought back to life, something that SELDOM happened in Isra'el's history! We are told of three times it happened before Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom, and we are told of three times that Yeshua` performed such a miracle!

The first step was fairly commonly believed (although not universally so).
The second step was only accepted by those who became Yeshua`s disciples.
However, even the disciples refused to believe that the Messiah would have to die! And "come back to life again?" NOBODY truly believed THAT! Even when Yeshua` TOLD them that He would "rise again the third day," they were AFRAID to ask Him what He meant!

THEREFORE, one MUST understand that the "gospel" to which Yochanan (John) and Yeshua` (Jesus) referred was NOT what we think Paul called the "gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4! Thus, the "gospel of the kingdom" spoken about in the Gospels is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ," as so many teach! That was an ENTIRELY FOREIGN CONCEPT to them!

On the other hand, you are NOT incorrect IF you understand that the "gospel of the Kingdom" is what was also important to Rav Sha'uwl "Paulos" or the "Apostle Paul" in both Romans and 1 Corinthians. THAT is the "gospel" to which he alluded!

Shalom, veteran.

Arnie is correct about the context of that verse within Christ's Olivet Discourse of signs about the end.

Matt 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(KJV)

Some of Christ's elect servants here on earth are going to be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give His Testimony against them, by... The Holy Spirit speaking through them. The Greek for "preached" means a herald, especially of divine truth (per Strong's no. 2784).

This event is particular to those end time tribulation events our Lord Jesus was giving there. I know it is traditionally interpreted to mean that The Gospel must be taken to all nations giving them a chance to hear, but for during the tribulation the opposite working against doing that is going to manifest by Satan's host who will be in control here. Instead in that time we will be hated for Christ's sake, and that means The Gospel too. The signs of trying to silence The Gospel in the once predominantly Christian west have already been showing up today.

So what that verse is really about is when Christ's faithful who will refuse to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ in place of our Lord Jesus, they will be hated and delivered up in front of Satan's hosts here on earth, and that... is when this Gospel will be heraled to all the world, for I have no doubt those councils and trials some of us will be tested with will be made public internationally. God is going to speak to the whole world through them during the tribulation when Satan and his hosts have full control over the earth in the near future. But it won't be just us only, but God's "two witnesses" that are to appear in Jerusalem also for that tribulation time.

Some of you need to hear this and understand.

And, you need to understand that that was NOT what Yeshua` was talking about! You broke in on the quotation in verse 9 and didn't record in your quote the verses just before it:

Matthew 24:4-9
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
KJV

THEN, the rest of what you quoted follows. He is not talking to a future generation! He is talking DIRECTLY TO HIS STUDENTS! HIS DISCIPLES! HIS FOLLOWERS! THOSE VERY PEOPLE WHO WERE HEARING HIS DISCOURSE THAT DAY! Now, while it is true that verse 7 projects His words into the future, He comes BACK to His listeners in verse 9! He then projects His prediction into the distant future again in verses 10-13; however, He once again brings His words back to HIS LISTENERS PERSONALLY in verse 15:

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

You should really consider how Yeshua` was TALKING TO THEM THAT DAY ON THAT MOUNTAIN! THEY were the ones who saw this "abomination of desolation!" It happened in THEIR lifetimes and in the lifetimes of THEIR loved ones! Try translating "to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos" with slightly different words, synonyms that take it away from treating it as a label: It was "the disgusting thing of laying Jerusalem waste!" And, when it stood in the Holy Place, when it reached the Temple, it totally devastated them!

It's time to abandon the eschatological rhetoric of the position of the futurist-only and LISTEN to what Yeshua` actually said!

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


And, you need to understand that that was NOT what Yeshua` was talking about! You broke in on the quotation in verse 9 and didn't record in your quote the verses just before it:

Matthew 24:4-9
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
KJV

THEN, the rest of what you quoted follows. He is not talking to a future generation! He is talking DIRECTLY TO HIS STUDENTS! HIS DISCIPLES! HIS FOLLOWERS! THOSE VERY PEOPLE WHO WERE HEARING HIS DISCOURSE THAT DAY! Now, while it is true that verse 7 projects His words into the future, He comes BACK to His listeners in verse 9! He then projects His prediction into the distant future again in verses 10-13; however, He once again brings His words back to HIS LISTENERS PERSONALLY in verse 15:

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

You should really consider how Yeshua` was TALKING TO THEM THAT DAY ON THAT MOUNTAIN! THEY were the ones who saw this "abomination of desolation!" It happened in THEIR lifetimes and in the lifetimes of THEIR loved ones! Try translating "to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos" with slightly different words, synonyms that take it away from treating it as a label: It was "the disgusting thing of laying Jerusalem waste!" And, when it stood in the Holy Place, when it reached the Temple, it totally devastated them!

It's time to abandon the eschatological rhetoric of the position of the futurist-only and LISTEN to what Yeshua` actually said!

Sorry, I don't adhere to men's theories like Preterism, which is what you're espousing with the above.

The seven signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse upon the Mount of Olives there in Matthew 24 are the seven endtime signs of His Book of Revelation, and those signs are... for the final generation on this earth that will see His return. That's the generation of the parable of a fig tree that He was speaking of there in Matthew 24.

Furthermore, I'm not a Futurist. Anyone who recognizes something simple from God's Word like Christ's second coming is still future, that does not categorize them as a Futurist. But those who heed ideas outside God's Word that men devise like Preterism's idea those signs were fulfilled in 70 A.D., or that Christ's second coming already happened back in history, now those indeed can be categorized by men's seminary term Preterist.

 

[Quantrill]

Shalom, Quantrill.


I'll say it again, who during the "ministry" of Yeshua` (Jesus) believed that Yeshua` would have to die? If they believed that He was the Messiah, they would choose to believe that He would reign forever as His ancestor Daveed. So, there was a SUCCESSION of things necessary for one to believe if they were going to believe what people today call the "gospel":

First, one would have to believe that God was indeed sending His Messiah to Isra'el as promised.
Then, one would have to believe that Yeshua` from Natsaret was indeed this Messiah of God.
Then, one would have to believe that His Messiah would be rejected and die, as predicted.
Then, one would have to understand that His Messiah would be brought back to life, something that SELDOM happened in Isra'el's history! We are told of three times it happened before Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom, and we are told of three times that Yeshua` performed such a miracle!

The first step was fairly commonly believed (although not universally so).
The second step was only accepted by those who became Yeshua`s disciples.
However, even the disciples refused to believe that the Messiah would have to die! And "come back to life again?" NOBODY truly believed THAT! Even when Yeshua` TOLD them that He would "rise again the third day," they were AFRAID to ask Him what He meant!

THEREFORE, one MUST understand that the "gospel" to which Yochanan (John) and Yeshua` (Jesus) referred was NOT what we think Paul called the "gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4! Thus, the "gospel of the kingdom" spoken about in the Gospels is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ," as so many teach! That was an ENTIRELY FOREIGN CONCEPT to them!

On the other hand, you are NOT incorrect IF you understand that the "gospel of the Kingdom" is what was also important to Rav Sha'uwl "Paulos" or the "Apostle Paul" in both Romans and 1 Corinthians. THAT is the "gospel" to which he alluded!

I agree that the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, which is the Gospel Paul and the Church preach, are not the same Gospel. The Gospel of the Kingdom is a Gospel of Repentance. The Gospel of Grace is just that.

This Gospel of the Kingdom is what John the Baptist and Jesus and the disciples first preached, because Jesus was offering to Israel the Kingdom. That would be rejected culminating in the Cross. And then a new Gospel is given for a new body, the Church.

But there is still a future Kingdom that will be established here on earth. And it will be that same Kingdom that Jesus Christ came preaching the first time.

Quantrill

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Sorry, I don't adhere to men's theories like Preterism, which is what you're espousing with the above.

The seven signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse upon the Mount of Olives there in Matthew 24 are the seven endtime signs of His Book of Revelation, and those signs are... for the final generation on this earth that will see His return. That's the generation of the parable of a fig tree that He was speaking of there in Matthew 24.

Furthermore, I'm not a Futurist. Anyone who recognizes something simple from God's Word like Christ's second coming is still future, that does not categorize them as a Futurist. But those who heed ideas outside God's Word that men devise like Preterism's idea those signs were fulfilled in 70 A.D., or that Christ's second coming already happened back in history, now those indeed can be categorized by men's seminary term Preterist.

It's not "preterism"; it's listening to what Yeshua` was saying! Some of what He warned them about was FOR THEM, not just some nebulous future that didn't ultimately mean anything to them personally! Yeshua` didn't say, "Record all this for a particular future generation!" He was speaking TO THEM! And, again I'll say it, don't you think He would have SOME word of warning for them with 66-70 A.D. just around the corner? Some of them were going to face these events in their lifetime, and if not in their own, at least in the lifetime of their loved ones! Besides, I don't consider myself a preterist by any stretch of the imagination. At worst, I am a "partial preterist," but with regard to the Olivet Discourse, I would rather think of myself as a "partial futurist."

Furthermore, if you can label others "preterists," then you ARE a "futurist" by contrast! Some call it a "premillennialist." Ultimately, it's the same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! or as some say, "What goes around comes around." If you can label others, then others can label YOU! That's only fair!

The "seven signs of the Olivet Discourse" are fabricated and fictional. You will not find them so enumerated nor are they a direct reflection of Revelation; that's just eschatological nonsense. Not everything in the scriptures must be in groups of seven! Leave the theory out of this and stick to the facts.

-----

Shalom, Quantrill.

I agree that the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, which is the Gospel Paul and the Church preach, are not the same Gospel. The Gospel of the Kingdom is a Gospel of Repentance. The Gospel of Grace is just that.

This Gospel of the Kingdom is what John the Baptist and Jesus and the disciples first preached, because Jesus was offering to Israel the Kingdom. That would be rejected culminating in the Cross. And then a new Gospel is given for a new body, the Church.

But there is still a future Kingdom that will be established here on earth. And it will be that same Kingdom that Jesus Christ came preaching the first time.

Quantrill

Amen! I quite agree with your assessment.

However, have you considered that, if Yeshua` will be establishing the "same Kingdom" here on earth after He returns, the gospel to which He referred in the Olivet Discourse - Matthew 24:14 and Mark 13:10 - is NOT the "gospel of grace" but the "gospel of the kingdom?"

 

[Quantrill]

Retrobyter

Yes, I agree that the Gospel spoken of by Jesus in Matt.24:14 is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Quantrill

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


It's not "preterism"; it's listening to what Yeshua` was saying! Some of what He warned them about was FOR THEM, not just some nebulous future that didn't ultimately mean anything to them personally! Yeshua` didn't say, "Record all this for a particular future generation!" He was speaking TO THEM! And, again I'll say it, don't you think He would have SOME word of warning for them with 66-70 A.D. just around the corner? Some of them were going to face these events in their lifetime, and if not in their own, at least in the lifetime of their loved ones! Besides, I don't consider myself a preterist by any stretch of the imagination. At worst, I am a "partial preterist," but with regard to the Olivet Discourse, I would rather think of myself as a "partial futurist."

Belief that some of the events of Matt.24 were fulfilled either back in the days of Christ's Apostles or by the Romans in 70 A.D. is... a Preterist belief (Partial Preterism). The belief that Christ's second coming is not a literal coming, or that it happened already back in the Apostle's days also... is a Preterist belief (Full Preterism).

And those Preterist beliefs definitely... are not listening to what Christ Jesus said there upon the Mount of Olives to His disciples and thus His Church. Those Preterist beliefs instead try to 'overturn' the prophecies Jesus was giving in His Olivet Discourse, even the very event of His literal second coming with Full Preterism.

Jesus mentioned "this generation" NOT as a specific pointer to His disciples upon the Mount of Olives in their day, but as a pointer to the specific generation that would... see all those signs of the end He gave. It's very simple when read as it's actually written.

Along with His mention of that generation He FIRST commanded to learn the parable of a fig tree, because it is that specific parable which sets the time of the generation He was speaking of for the very end of this present world.

Furthermore, because of Preterist thinking, they also treat most of Christ's Book of Revelation as already being 'past' history, when in reality today we are practically in the 'heart' of those Revelation prophecies for the end of this world.

The signs Jesus gave in Matt.24 parallel the signs He gave in Revelation 6 (and thus the signs of the seven trumpets and vials also). Thus Jesus was giving 7 SIGNS of the very end of this world leading up to His second coming there in Matt.24. Thus His Revelation for the end is hard-linked to Matt.24 and Mark 13.

Furthermore, if you can label others "preterists," then you ARE a "futurist" by contrast! Some call it a "premillennialist." Ultimately, it's the same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! or as some say, "What goes around comes around." If you can label others, then others can label YOU! That's only fair!

The "seven signs of the Olivet Discourse" are fabricated and fictional. You will not find them so enumerated nor are they a direct reflection of Revelation; that's just eschatological nonsense. Not everything in the scriptures must be in groups of seven! Leave the theory out of this and stick to the facts.

Partial Preterists still believe Christ's second coming is yet 'future'. And I agree with them on that specific point. So how does that make me a Futurist, and how would that not make 'them' a Futurist also??? That's why the seminary categorizations are in actuality a big joke.

The signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the signs He gave in His Revelation, specifically Revelation chapter 6 with the 6 Seals. The final sign He gave was that of His second coming. Those seven signs are the events of the 7 seals, trumpets, and vials of His Revelation.

Now just because you have failed... to understand that seven sign parallel between Matt.24, Mark 13 and Rev.6 does not mean no such parallel exists. They may not exist for you, nor for your Preterist associates, but they exist for those who read and compare their events using simple common sense.

You're false comparison to facts and theory doesn't fly, because for you to even begin... to understand that Scripture parallel as given you would first be forced to give up your chosen theories about Matt.24 being already fulfilled back in 70 A.D.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

You said, "Belief that some of the events of Matt.24 were fulfilled either back in the days of Christ's Apostles or by the Romans in 70 A.D. is... a Preterist belief (Partial Preterism). The belief that Christ's second coming is not a literal coming, or that it happened already back in the Apostle's days also... is a Preterist belief (Full Preterism)," and "Partial Preterists still believe Christ's second coming is yet 'future'. And I agree with them on that specific point. So how does that make me a Futurist, and how would that not make 'them' a Futurist also??? That's why the seminary categorizations are in actuality a big joke," and "Furthermore, because of Preterist thinking, they also treat most of Christ's Book of Revelation as already being 'past' history, when in reality today we are practically in the 'heart' of those Revelation prophecies for the end of this world."

That's what I'm SAYING, man! Partial Preterism DOES NOT EQUAL Full Preterism! Don't classify me that way! And, because Partial Preterists "still believe Christ's second coming is yet 'future,'" I DO consider myself (and each Partial Preterist) a "FUTURIST!" ...or, at least a "Partial Futurist," because as I've said, I don't believe all of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is FOR our future, but Revelation is.

You said, "And those Preterist beliefs definitely... are not listening to what Christ Jesus said there upon the Mount of Olives to His disciples and thus His Church. Those Preterist beliefs instead try to 'overturn' the prophecies Jesus was giving in His Olivet Discourse, even the very event of His literal second coming with Full Preterism."

That's YOUR opinion, and I don't believe that YOU are listening to what the Messiah Yeshua` said there upon Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) to His TALMIDIYM (His STUDENTS), His MISHPACHAH (His FAMILY)! YOU'RE trying to 'overturn' the warnings Yeshua` was giving to His FAMILY and CREATE prophecies for the future THAT AREN'T THERE! ... and leave the Full Preterists out of this. I'm not one of them, and you're talking to ME, not them!

You said, "The signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the signs He gave in His Revelation, specifically Revelation chapter 6 with the 6 Seals. The final sign He gave was that of His second coming. Those seven signs are the events of the 7 seals, trumpets, and vials of His Revelation.
Now just because you have failed... to understand that seven sign parallel between Matt.24, Mark 13 and Rev.6 does not mean no such parallel exists. They may not exist for you, nor for your Preterist associates, but they exist for those who read and compare their events using simple common sense." and "The signs Jesus gave in Matt.24 parallel the signs He gave in Revelation 6 (and thus the signs of the seven trumpets and vials also). Thus Jesus was giving 7 SIGNS of the very end of this world leading up to His second coming there in Matt.24. Thus His Revelation for the end is hard-linked to Matt.24 and Mark 13."

"Failed." Hmmmf. I take it then that you believe the 7 seals = 7 trumpets = 7 vials? I see them rather as telescoping events. Instead of "7 signs," I'd say they were more like 19 separate plagues:

Chapter 6.........Chapters 7-9....Chapters 11-16
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)).
6 + 6 + 7 = 19.

There can't be overlapping because there's too much difference between these events. Furthermore, from the sixth seal through the fifth trumpet (boldfaced above), we have a meteorite shower! Several things shall fall out of the sky in rapid succession!

1. 1st Seal: White Horse with conquering rider with an arrow-less bow and crown
2. 2nd Seal: Red Horse with rider with a great sword
3. 3rd Seal: Black Horse with rider with a pair of balances
4. 4th Seal: Sickly Green Horse with rider Death who kills with sword, hunger, mortality, and beasts and whose companion is Sh'owl
5. 5th Seal: Souls of men under the altar given white robes and told to be patient

6. 6th Seal: "Stars" fall from the sky to the ground
7th Seal: Silence in the sky for 1/2 hour
7. 7th Seal: 1st Shofar: "Hail and fire mingled with blood" thrown to the ground
8. 7th Seal: 2nd Shofar: "Blazing mountain" is thrown into the sea
9. 7th Seal: 3rd Shofar: "A huge blazing star" ("Apsinthe" or "Wormwood") sputters over the fresh water sources
10. 7th Seal: 4th Shofar: "1/3 of sun, 1/3 of moon, & 1/3 of stars" darkened
11. 7th Seal: 5th Shofar: "A huge star falls from the sky to the ground" and cracks open the shaft to "the bottomless pit," "to frear tou abussou"

12. 7th Seal: 6th Shofar: The 200,000,000 army
7th Seal: 7th Shofar: The kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of YHWH and of His Messiah!
13. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 1st Vial: Sores on those with the mark of the Beast
14. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 2nd Vial: Water of the sea turned to dead man's blood
15. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 3rd Vial: Water of rivers and fountains turn to blood
16. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 4th Vial: Sun scorches men with fire
17. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 5th Vial: Kingdom of the Beast full of darkness
18. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 6th Vial: Euphrates River dried up
19. 7th Seal: 7th Shofar: 7th Vial: Voices, thunders, lightnings, and earthquakes

You said, "Jesus mentioned "this generation" NOT as a specific pointer to His disciples upon the Mount of Olives in their day, but as a pointer to the specific generation that would... see all those signs of the end He gave. It's very simple when read as it's actually written.
Along with His mention of that generation He FIRST commanded to learn the parable of a fig tree, because it is that specific parable which sets the time of the generation He was speaking of for the very end of this present world."

Not quite. Who of them would be present to see all the things to which YOU think He is referring? Look at the words again:

Matthew 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

He's not talking about everything that He has been talking about; He's talking about everything for which He has told THEM PERSONALLY to be on guard! Go back through the chapter and look for the "ye's" and "you's," including the verbs in which the "ye" is understood, and He is referring to THOSE "all things!"

The "ye's" and "you's" do not refer to the "Church" as the future disciples! They refer to the disciples to whom He was speaking! If He was talking about the future generation of disciples, He would have mentioned them as the ELECT here!

Finally, you said, "You're false comparison to facts and theory doesn't fly, because for you to even begin... to understand that Scripture parallel as given you would first be forced to give up your chosen theories about Matt.24 being already fulfilled back in 70 A.D."

Well, that is your opinion, too. But, your presentation of Matthew 24 has not convinced me to give up my "chosen theories." Give me some HARD FACTS as to WHY I need to see things your way, and I will honestly consider them.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.

You said, "Belief that some of the events of Matt.24 were fulfilled either back in the days of Christ's Apostles or by the Romans in 70 A.D. is... a Preterist belief (Partial Preterism). The belief that Christ's second coming is not a literal coming, or that it happened already back in the Apostle's days also... is a Preterist belief (Full Preterism)," and "Partial Preterists still believe Christ's second coming is yet 'future'. And I agree with them on that specific point. So how does that make me a Futurist, and how would that not make 'them' a Futurist also??? That's why the seminary categorizations are in actuality a big joke," and "Furthermore, because of Preterist thinking, they also treat most of Christ's Book of Revelation as already being 'past' history, when in reality today we are practically in the 'heart' of those Revelation prophecies for the end of this world."

That's what I'm SAYING, man! Partial Preterism DOES NOT EQUAL Full Preterism! Don't classify me that way! And, because Partial Preterists "still believe Christ's second coming is yet 'future,'" I DO consider myself (and each Partial Preterist) a "FUTURIST!" ...or, at least a "Partial Futurist," because as I've said, I don't believe all of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is FOR our future, but Revelation is.

So you recognize the futility of men's seminary categorizations, right? That was my ultimate point, vs. staying with the Scripture as actually written. Usually when I bring up those labels it's because of how some allow those things to sway one's interpretation instead of reading the Scripture as actually written.

You said, "And those Preterist beliefs definitely... are not listening to what Christ Jesus said there upon the Mount of Olives to His disciples and thus His Church. Those Preterist beliefs instead try to 'overturn' the prophecies Jesus was giving in His Olivet Discourse, even the very event of His literal second coming with Full Preterism."

That's YOUR opinion, and I don't believe that YOU are listening to what the Messiah Yeshua` said there upon Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) to His TALMIDIYM (His STUDENTS), His MISHPACHAH (His FAMILY)! YOU'RE trying to 'overturn' the warnings Yeshua` was giving to His FAMILY and CREATE prophecies for the future THAT AREN'T THERE! ... and leave the Full Preterists out of this. I'm not one of them, and you're talking to ME, not them!

Not an opinion, reason being because the subject and object of what the disciples asked Jesus and His answer to their question specifically involves events about the end of this world and the signs of His second coming (Matt.24:1-3). Preterist thought (Historicism too) often denies that right off the bat when that's actually the main subject of the Matt.24 chapter, even to the very end of the chapter, and even continuing into the 25th chapter also. Some simply miss the whole forest because of the trees, and when they should be stepping back to understand the flow of our Lord's Message there, they begin to get more into word-centered fallacies and away from its simplicity.

You said, "The signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the signs He gave in His Revelation, specifically Revelation chapter 6 with the 6 Seals. The final sign He gave was that of His second coming. Those seven signs are the events of the 7 seals, trumpets, and vials of His Revelation.
Now just because you have failed... to understand that seven sign parallel between Matt.24, Mark 13 and Rev.6 does not mean no such parallel exists. They may not exist for you, nor for your Preterist associates, but they exist for those who read and compare their events using simple common sense." and "The signs Jesus gave in Matt.24 parallel the signs He gave in Revelation 6 (and thus the signs of the seven trumpets and vials also). Thus Jesus was giving 7 SIGNS of the very end of this world leading up to His second coming there in Matt.24. Thus His Revelation for the end is hard-linked to Matt.24 and Mark 13."

"Failed." Hmmmf. I take it then that you believe the 7 seals = 7 trumpets = 7 vials? I see them rather as telescoping events. Instead of "7 signs," I'd say they were more like 19 separate plagues:

Chapter 6.........Chapters 7-9....Chapters 11-16
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)).
6 + 6 + 7 = 19.

There can't be overlapping because there's too much difference between these events. Furthermore, from the sixth seal through the fifth trumpet (boldfaced above), we have a meteorite shower! Several things shall fall out of the sky in rapid succession!

The traditional interpretation of the seals, trumpets, and vials is to try and make its flow chronological in order, like how some technical textbook is layed out. More stress is put upon the ordinal numbers of the seals, trumpets, and vials without first recognizing how the events are overlaying each other.

For example, at the end of Rev.6 with the 6th Seal, when kings of the earth, and mighty men, and rich men, etc., try to hide themselves because the time of Christ's wrath has come, that event is an overlay of events of the 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet. Even on the 6th Vial Jesus is still giving warning to His Church on earth about His coming and to not be caught unware (Rev.16:15). This completely betrays the traditional interpretation of trying to make all the numbers of the seals, trumpets, and vials to flow in chronological order like some school history textbook. Even in Rev.10:7 we are told that when the 7th angel begins to sound the mystery of God involving the things of this present world will be finished, thus revealing that the 7th Trumpet in Rev.11 is the very end of this present world, including the end of the last Vial.

Thus numerical layouts like you supplied just don't fit all the event timing He gave in His Revelation. But the subject flow of the signs He gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 do fit the flow of the 6 Seals in Rev.6.

You said, "Jesus mentioned "this generation" NOT as a specific pointer to His disciples upon the Mount of Olives in their day, but as a pointer to the specific generation that would... see all those signs of the end He gave. It's very simple when read as it's actually written.
Along with His mention of that generation He FIRST commanded to learn the parable of a fig tree, because it is that specific parable which sets the time of the generation He was speaking of for the very end of this present world."

Not quite. Who of them would be present to see all the things to which YOU think He is referring? Look at the words again:

Matthew 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

He's not talking about everything that He has been talking about; He's talking about everything for which He has told THEM PERSONALLY to be on guard! Go back through the chapter and look for the "ye's" and "you's," including the verbs in which the "ye" is understood, and He is referring to THOSE "all things!"

The "ye's" and "you's" do not refer to the "Church" as the future disciples! They refer to the disciples to whom He was speaking! If He was talking about the future generation of disciples, He would have mentioned them as the ELECT here!

How you're using that "ye" idea is part of the reason why you're not understanding the timing. If you'll look at Matt.24:42, you'll notice He uses that "ye" when speaking specifically about the 'day' of His second coming also. Now His disciples on the Mount with Him there have already passed on and today our Lord Jesus' second coming is still yet to occur, which I'm sure you also agree from your previous declared belief that Christ's return is still future to us. Jesus was specifically speaking about the event of His second coming with that, so that "ye" also applies to His Church on earth when He returns, still future ot us even. That's why you cannot allow simple plays like that "ye" to change the event flow He was giving not only them, but to His Church even in those disciple's future.

Preterism relies on those misinterpretations of little words like that "ye". It doesn't work because of how Jesus revealed there He was not only speaking of those events for the sake of His disciples there with Him, but also for the saints leading all the way up to His return.

His command to learn a parable of a fig tree was given first in connection with the subject of "this generation". And the fact that He is giving a specific time marker for when the fig branch is tender and puts forth leaves in connection with the idea of coming "summer", He is specifically pointing to the generation on the day of His return (Day of The LORD) using the analogy of summer harvest, a la Luke 21:30, Rev.14:15, Matt.13:39.

Finally, you said, "You're false comparison to facts and theory doesn't fly, because for you to even begin... to understand that Scripture parallel as given you would first be forced to give up your chosen theories about Matt.24 being already fulfilled back in 70 A.D."

Well, that is your opinion, too. But, your presentation of Matthew 24 has not convinced me to give up my "chosen theories." Give me some HARD FACTS as to WHY I need to see things your way, and I will honestly consider them.

It's not 'my way' I'm trying to get you to look at. It's the simplicity of the actual written Scripture and of course the analogies our Lord Jesus used there, like that summer harvest idea related to the generation He was speaking of for the time of His return.

I'm sorry, but because of the ideas you're holding onto, you really have not gotten past the meaning of the Matt.24:3 verse about the timing His disciple's question is for...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(KJV)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

So you recognize the futility of men's seminary categorizations, right? That was my ultimate point, vs. staying with the Scripture as actually written. Usually when I bring up those labels it's because of how some allow those things to sway one's interpretation instead of reading the Scripture as actually written.


Not an opinion, reason being because the subject and object of what the disciples asked Jesus and His answer to their question specifically involves events about the end of this world and the signs of His second coming (Matt.24:1-3). Preterist thought (Historicism too) often denies that right off the bat when that's actually the main subject of the Matt.24 chapter, even to the very end of the chapter, and even continuing into the 25th chapter also. Some simply miss the whole forest because of the trees, and when they should be stepping back to understand the flow of our Lord's Message there, they begin to get more into word-centered fallacies and away from its simplicity.


The traditional interpretation of the seals, trumpets, and vials is to try and make its flow chronological in order, like how some technical textbook is layed out. More stress is put upon the ordinal numbers of the seals, trumpets, and vials without first recognizing how the events are overlaying each other.

For example, at the end of Rev.6 with the 6th Seal, when kings of the earth, and mighty men, and rich men, etc., try to hide themselves because the time of Christ's wrath has come, that event is an overlay of events of the 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet. Even on the 6th Vial Jesus is still giving warning to His Church on earth about His coming and to not be caught unware (Rev.16:15). This completely betrays the traditional interpretation of trying to make all the numbers of the seals, trumpets, and vials to flow in chronological order like some school history textbook. Even in Rev.10:7 we are told that when the 7th angel begins to sound the mystery of God involving the things of this present world will be finished, thus revealing that the 7th Trumpet in Rev.11 is the very end of this present world, including the end of the last Vial.

Thus numerical layouts like you supplied just don't fit all the event timing He gave in His Revelation. But the subject flow of the signs He gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 do fit the flow of the 6 Seals in Rev.6.


How you're using that "ye" idea is part of the reason why you're not understanding the timing. If you'll look at Matt.24:42, you'll notice He uses that "ye" when speaking specifically about the 'day' of His second coming also. Now His disciples on the Mount with Him there have already passed on and today our Lord Jesus' second coming is still yet to occur, which I'm sure you also agree from your previous declared belief that Christ's return is still future to us. Jesus was specifically speaking about the event of His second coming with that, so that "ye" also applies to His Church on earth when He returns, still future ot us even. That's why you cannot allow simple plays like that "ye" to change the event flow He was giving not only them, but to His Church even in those disciple's future.

Preterism relies on those misinterpretations of little words like that "ye". It doesn't work because of how Jesus revealed there He was not only speaking of those events for the sake of His disciples there with Him, but also for the saints leading all the way up to His return.

His command to learn a parable of a fig tree was given first in connection with the subject of "this generation". And the fact that He is giving a specific time marker for when the fig branch is tender and puts forth leaves in connection with the idea of coming "summer", He is specifically pointing to the generation on the day of His return (Day of The LORD) using the analogy of summer harvest, a la Luke 21:30, Rev.14:15, Matt.13:39.


It's not 'my way' I'm trying to get you to look at. It's the simplicity of the actual written Scripture and of course the analogies our Lord Jesus used there, like that summer harvest idea related to the generation He was speaking of for the time of His return.

I'm sorry, but because of the ideas you're holding onto, you really have not gotten past the meaning of the Matt.24:3 verse about the timing His disciple's question is for...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(KJV)

Matthew 24:1-3
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV

Let me try to make this simple for you: When Yeshua` said, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down," when did that happen? When was the Temple demolished?

So, when His disciples asked, "When shall these things be?" couldn't they have been asking about the time when the Temple would be demolished?

And, if they were asking something like that, which would happen in their generation, some forty years from then, wouldn't you think that Yeshua` would answer their question?

If so, then PART of His discourse needs to be about 70 A.D.!

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


Matthew 24:1-3
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV

Let me try to make this simple for you: When Yeshua` said, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down," when did that happen? When was the Temple demolished?

Naw, you can't just immediately jump to 70 A.D. with that single verse, because here's why, again...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(KJV)

So, when His disciples asked, "When shall these things be?" couldn't they have been asking about the time when the Temple would be demolished?

Yes, it was about that very matter, just NOT specific to what happened in 70 A.D.

Do you not study the Old Testament prophets anymore? What events were they given to write about for the end of this present world? Don't you think Christ's disciples were familiar with the Old Testament prophets? (of course they were, since Jesus quoted quite a bit of OT Scripture to them in remembrance of prophecy).

Zech 14:4
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(KJV)


Micah 1:3-4
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under Him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
(KJV)


2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

And, if they were asking something like that, which would happen in their generation, some forty years from then, wouldn't you think that Yeshua` would answer their question?

If so, then PART of His discourse needs to be about 70 A.D.!

Wasn't Jerusalem destroyed in past history prior to 70 A.D. also? Yes, by the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar.

Jerusalem has been sieged by Gentile armies something like 27 times in its history.

What you're forgetting is there is to be a final 28th time, which is still sometime in our near future. It will be that last time when our Lord Jesus will return to end possession of Jerusalem by His enemies, forever. And that's when whatever is built there by man will be completely destroyed by His consuming fire on the Day of The LORD.

Being Jewish I wonder how you could forget this history about the battle by God's enemies over Jerusalem? It is where our Heavenly Father chose to put His Name, even forever. So naturally His enemies want possession of it.

So why would you think that 70 A.D. was ever the end of that, since God already told us through His OT prophets about the last and final battle over Jerusalem by His coming with His army from Heaven per Zech.14:1 and Zeph.3:8 and Rev.16:16?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Naw, you can't just immediately jump to 70 A.D. with that single verse, because here's why, again...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(KJV)


Yes, it was about that very matter, just NOT specific to what happened in 70 A.D.

Do you not study the Old Testament prophets anymore? What events were they given to write about for the end of this present world? Don't you think Christ's disciples were familiar with the Old Testament prophets? (of course they were, since Jesus quoted quite a bit of OT Scripture to them in remembrance of prophecy).

Zech 14:4
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(KJV)


Micah 1:3-4
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under Him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
(KJV)


2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)




Wasn't Jerusalem destroyed in past history prior to 70 A.D. also? Yes, by the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar.

Jerusalem has been sieged by Gentile armies something like 27 times in its history.

What you're forgetting is there is to be a final 28th time, which is still sometime in our near future. It will be that last time when our Lord Jesus will return to end possession of Jerusalem by His enemies, forever. And that's when whatever is built there by man will be completely destroyed by His consuming fire on the Day of The LORD.

Being Jewish I wonder how you could forget this history about the battle by God's enemies over Jerusalem? It is where our Heavenly Father chose to put His Name, even forever. So naturally His enemies want possession of it.

So why would you think that 70 A.D. was ever the end of that, since God already told us through His OT prophets about the last and final battle over Jerusalem by His coming with His army from Heaven per Zech.14:1 and Zeph.3:8 and Rev.16:16?

I just don't understand why you are being so resistant to the simple idea of what was going on that day when He talked to them about the future on that mount outside Jerusalem. Today, you can't see the trees for the forest! I study the prophecies of the Tanakh just fine and often. I am also quite aware of Isra'el's history and the historical fulfillment of MANY of the prophets! It is important to know WHEN each prophet proclaimed a message for YHWH and to whom he was sent! Some things that they were given to speak and write were things for the future, including times that are yet future to us, but MANY of the things that they were given to speak and write were fulfilled soon after being given!

For instance, almost all of the prophecy of Yonah (Jonah) was for Nineveh in HIS time, not for the future, particularly the distant future! There might have been a FEW things, such as the example he left of being in the belly of the great fish for three days and nights. MUCH of Yirmeyahu's (Jeremiah's) prophecy was fulfilled shortly after he gave it! Only the portions that were about the distant future might still be needed to be fulfilled, but even some of those are already fulfilled, at least in part!

That's why I say, "Those who don't learn from history are DOOMED to think that the prophecy must still be fulfilled!" Much of the prophecies in the Tanakh (the OT) have already been fulfilled (for instance, the 400 or so prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah); thus, they are OVER AND DONE WITH, NEVER TO BE REPEATED! That's important to understand and remember! When a prophecy is fulfilled, it is COMPLETE! Each prophecy must have its ONE AND ONLY fulfillment; otherwise, it would be no different than Nostradamus' prophecies or those of Jeanne Dixon, open to the interpretation of the one reading the prophecy, and that is PRECISELY what Peter was speaking against in his epistle!

2 Peter 1:15-21
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Let's just remember who was present that day: There was Yeshua` Himself, His twelve Sent-Ones, and possibly more of His talmidiym - His students - His disciples than just the Twelve. We were told that there were about 120 disciples in Acts 1:15 right after Yeshua`s ascension. Neither Abraham, David, nor Shlomoh (Solomon), nor those who were taken captive to Babylon (a PAST event, btw) were present that day! WE weren't there, either!

There's no sense in looking backward to what had happened to Jerusalem in the past, nor was there any sense in looking too far in the future to disciples that THESE disciples wouldn't even know would exist!

The questions that these disciples asked Yeshua` that day were in three parts:

Matthew 24:1-3
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV

They asked ...
1) "When shall these things be?"
2) "What shall be the sign of thy coming?" and
3) "(What shall be the sign) of the end of the world?"

The first question was in response to Yeshua`s information that the Temple would be destroyed. It wasn't about "EVERY stone!" "Every stone" where? In Jerusalem? In Y'hudah? In Isra'el? In the WORLD?! NO!!!! Yeshua` had JUST been given a tour and shown THE BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE! He was talking about the stones used in the building of the Temple complex!

He wasn't just talking to them about the distant future! He was also talking to them about THEIR future and the future of THEIR families!

 

[ENOCH2010]

Roy is the statement in Matt:24-3 (and the end of the world) about the end of the world as we know it, or the end of their world ( the temple and worship as they did) ?