“Thus Says the Lord”

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Netchaplain

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There can be no complete knowledge of the Father’s “acceptance” until there is complete understanding concerning its eternal aspect. Though all believer’s possess “all things that pertain to life and godliness” (2 Pe 1:3), they can walk consciously only in accordance to what their understanding is concerning that which pertains to the permanency of His acceptance. There cannot be a true moment’s peace known apart from life’s trials until the uncertainty concerning the unbroken continuity of union with God is finally revealed by Him in the mind and heart.
NC
[SIZE=14pt]“Thus Says the Lord”[/SIZE]​
There is a great growth truth doctrinally unfolded in 2 Corinthians 5:17—“If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” It is not the old nature pardoned, but set aside in death, and a new creation introduced. “All things are become new; and all things are of God.” All of God, hence nothing of man.

Now this gives immense relief to the heart. Indeed, we question if any soul can enter into the full liberty of the Gospel* until he lays hold, in some measure of the truth of the “new creation.” There may be a looking to the Savior for pardon, a hope of getting to heaven at last, a measure of reliance on the goodness and mercy of God—there may be all this, and yet no just sense of the meaning of “everlasting life,” no happy consciousness of being “a new creation”—no understanding of the grand fact that the old Adam life has been crucified, the old position in which we stood in Adam done away in the Father’s sight and His reckoning.

But it is likely that some may be at a loss to know what is meant by such terms as “the old Adam nature”—“the old condition”—“the flesh”—“the old man,” etc. Such expressions are used in Scripture in numerous places. For example, in Romans six we read, “Our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed (nullified), that henceforth we should not serve sin” (v 6).

Now what does the Apostle Paul mean by the “old man”? He means man as in the Adamic life which we inherited from our first parents. What does he mean by “the body of sin”? He means the whole system or condition in which we stood in our unregenerate, un-renewed, unconverted standing and state. The old Adam, then, is declared to be crucified—the old position of sin is said to be destroyed by the Lord Jesus’ death unto sin. Hence believer is privileged to know the he—his sinful, guilty self—is looked upon by God as completely set aside in death. Before God he is dead and buried.

It is not merely that our sines are forgiven, our debts paid, our guilt atoned for; but the man in the life and nature that committed the sins, contracted the debts and incurred the guilt, is put forever out of the Father’s site. It is not His way to forgive us our sins and yet leave us in the same relations in which we committed them. No, He has in His marvelous grace and vast purpose, condemned and abolished forever, for the believer, the old Adam relationship. We are declared, by the voice of Scripture, to be “crucified,” “dead,” “buried,” “risen” and “ascended” with Christ. Our Father tells us we are so, and we are to “reckon” ourselves to be so. It is a matter of faith in the facts, and not of feeling.

If I look at myself from my standpoint, or judge by my feelings, I shall never, can never understand this truth. Why? Because I feel myself to be just the same sinful creature as ever. I feel there is sin in me; that in my flesh there dwells no good thing; that my old nature is in nowise changed or improved; that it has the same evil tendencies as ever, and if not mortified and kept in the place of death by the gracious energy of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:13—NC), it will break out in its true character.

It is just here that so many believers are perplexed and troubled. They are looking at themselves, and reasoning upon what they see and feel, instead of resting in the truth of the Word, and reckoning themselves to be what the Father tells then they are. They find it difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile what they feel in themselves with what they read in the Word of God—to make their inward self-consciousness harmonize with the Father’s revelation in Scripture.

We must remember that faith takes God at His Word. I believe what He says because He says it. Hence, if He tells me that my old man was crucified, that He no longer sees me in the old Adam position, but positioned anew in the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, I am to believe, like a little child, what He tells me, and walk in the faith of it from day to day. If I look in at myself for evidences of the truth of what my Father says, it is not faith at all. Abraham “considered not his own body, now dead, when he was about an hundred years old; neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb; he staggered not at the promise of God though unbelief, but was strong in faith, giving glory to God” (Rom 4:19, 20).

Ponder this! You may say you cannot understand how your sinful self can be considered dead while you feel its working’s, its heaving’s, its tendency’s, continually within you. God’s eternal Word declares, that if your heart believes in the Savior, then is all this true of you, namely, you have eternal life; you are justified from all things*; you are a new creature; old things are passed away; all things are become new; and all things are of God. In a word, you are “in Christ,” and “as He is, so are we in this world” (1 Jhn 4:17).

Is not this a great deal more that the mere pardoning of your sins, that canceling of your debts, of the salvation of your soul from judgment? Assuredly it is! Suppose we were to ask on what authority you believe in the forgiveness of your sins. Is it because you feel, realize or understand it so? Nay; but because it is written, “To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43). Well, then, upon precisely the same authority you are to believe (reckon) that your “old man” has been crucified, that “you are not in the flesh,” not in the old creation, not in the old Adam relationship; but that, on the contrary, you are viewed by your Father as actually in the risen and glorified Lord Jesus Christ—that He looks upon you as He looks upon His Beloved Son.

True it is—alas, how true!—the flesh is in you, and you are still here, as to the fact of your condition, in the old world, which is under judgment. But then, hear what your Lord says when speaking about you to His Father: “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world” (Jhn 17:16).

Hence, therefore, if you will just bow to your Father’s Word, if you will reason not about what you see in yourself (good or bad—NC), and feel in yourself, and think of yourself, but simply believe what He says, you will enter into the blessed peace and liberty flowing from the fact that you are not in the flesh, but under grace; not of the world, but of God. You have passed clear off the old ground which you occupied as a child of nature and a member of the first Adam, and you have taken your new position on the new heavenly ground as a child of God and a member of the Body and Church of Christ.

- C H Mackintosh

Poster’s Opinion:
* “enter into the full liberty of the Gospel”: Regeneration secures full liberty concerning freedom from the guilt and condemnation of sin, and the remaining liberty concerns the walk in an unbroken conscience in the truth of it.

* “you have eternal life; you are justified from all things”: Though presently and completely established in eternal life, and justified from all evils, believers require a timespan in learning to manifest this in their “walk after the Spirit,” which includes their “manner of conversation.”

I believe one of the primary issues with God concerning these things (Phil 2:13) is centered, not on the “works” (His pleasure) but on the “desire,” which He “works in you,” and as this is continuously seen in us we are encouraged in our fellowship with Him. The awareness of this ever-present desire benefits believers, as the “doing” benefits others. Here we find the saving of that which is “from,” and the saving of that which is “to”; from death and unto life!


Miles J Stanford Devotional: Excerpt for 11/16 – “Early in our Christian life the general conception is that God is a wonderful Helper. Later, as we experience failure, we come to know full well that if anything is going to be accomplished in and through us, He must do it all . . .”

http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
But it is likely that some may be at a loss to know what is meant by such terms as “the old Adam nature”—“the old condition”—“the flesh”—“the old man,” etc. Such expressions are used in Scripture in numerous places. For example, in Romans six we read, “Our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed (nullified), that henceforth we should not serve sin” (v 6).

This is SOOOO important, NC! In putting off the old man, we are to consider what Christ did on the cross as the pattern. When God laid our sin on Jesus and forsook Him, God was actually laying our "old man" on Jesus so that He might accomplish by His death what we accomplish by our repentance. That is, Jesus 1) committed His spirit to the Father and 2) gave up the ghost, the old man died! We in a living manner do the same thing when we "call on the name of the Lord" for salvation (Ro 10:13). We repent, dying to self (our Ghost) and receive God's Holy Ghost in our souls thereby committing our spirits to God.


It is just here that so many believers are perplexed and troubled. They are looking at themselves, and reasoning upon what they see and feel, instead of resting in the truth of the Word, and reckoning themselves to be what the Father tells then they are. They find it difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile what they feel in themselves with what they read in the Word of God—to make their inward self-consciousness harmonize with the Father’s revelation in Scripture.
The reason is that, though they believe the truth, they have not effectuated it in their lives through repentance to God and gotten His salvation and blessing (Acts 2:38). He does not live in the person who has not died to self in repentance putting self under God's Holy Spirit.

There is an insidious notion within orthodox Christianity that there is no difference between soul and spirit. We are 1) a physical entity and 2) a spiritual entity — so all we have to do is believe in order to be saved. That, my friend, leads to doubt and self-evaluation. But no .. belief is with the spirit but faith and salvation are of the soul. (Jas 1:21, 5:20, Heb 10:38-39) You must first believe .. but then you must repent praying to God turning from your sinful nature and guilt and turn to God (Acts 17:30, 26:20).


We must remember that faith takes God at His Word. I believe what He says because He says it. Hence, if He tells me that my old man was crucified, that He no longer sees me in the old Adam position, but positioned anew in the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, I am to believe, like a little child, what He tells me, and walk in the faith of it from day to day.[/QUOTE]We are, rather, to have the witness of the Holy Spirit in us that we are saved, Ro 8:16. Yes, the Bible tells us His promises .. but the Spirit confirms the Bible from within our souls. Example: Myself. When I prayed, my soul was immediately unburdened of sin, the Spirit came into me in a very perceptible way 1) opening my eyes to spiritual truth (specifically, that all the other churches where I'd been who had not preached this gospel to me were, for sure, not my brethren) and 2) giving me the first fruits of the Spirit — joy unspeakable (1Pet 1:8-9).

If I look in at myself for evidences of the truth of what my Father says, it is not faith at all. Abraham “considered not his own body, now dead, when he was about an hundred years old; neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb; he staggered not at the promise of God though unbelief, but was strong in faith, giving glory to God” (Rom 4:19, 20).


Suppose we were to ask on what authority you believe in the forgiveness of your sins. Is it because you feel, realize or understand it so? Nay; but because it is written, “To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43). Well, then, upon precisely the same authority you are to believe (reckon) that your “old man” has been crucified, that “you are not in the flesh,” not in the old creation, not in the old Adam relationship; but that, on the contrary, you are viewed by your Father as actually in the risen and glorified Lord Jesus Christ—that He looks upon you as He looks upon His Beloved Son.
This is called "Theological Dogma" .. you must believe it even if you don't understand it and haven't experienced it, NC. Paul replies this way: "If in this life only we have hope in [belief inn] Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1Cor 15:19) That is what MacIntosh is describing believers as having. They have hope, not faith. These people Paul was addressing in 1Cor 15 believed the gospel .. but believed it in vain (15:2, 14, 17). They had not died to self (15:36) and been born again.



Hence, therefore, if you will just bow to your Father’s Word, if you will reason not about what you see in yourself (good or bad—NC), and feel in yourself, and think of yourself, but simply believe what He says,…
We are not, I'm sure you will agree, saved by "simply believing." It takes faith — trust in God Himself, not just in His word. I can tell you that after having been under much Calvinist preaching, I know that there is a disconnect between believing God's truth and actually experiencing it. It is more about waiting for it to happen than there is application of scripture in order to receive salvation and blessing. Again, that is precisely what you are talking about here, isn't it?


I believe one of the primary issues with God concerning these things (Phil 2:13) is centered, not on the “works” (His pleasure) but on the “desire,” which He “works in you,”

Yes, as David put it, your "heart's desire." That is, the desire of your soul .. of your new nature .. the Holy Spirit's desire. The desires of the spirit are fluid .. the desires of the heart, either sin or righteousness, are more permanent .. which highlights the difference between belief and faith quite nicely.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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We are not, I'm sure you will agree, saved by "simply believing." It takes faith — trust in God Himself, not just in His word. Skypair

Faith is God's Word is faith in Him. It's my acceptance that salvation is completely received upon the moment we are given faith in Christ! NC





 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
Faith is God's Word is faith in Him. It's my acceptance that salvation is completely received upon the moment we are given faith in Christ! NC
Think about this, NC: What if you believe something that God didn't say in His word. Would you even know it? Salvation is much like the proverbial "scientific method." You believe something but can you prove that it is true? How would you "test" it? By OBEYING what God said. What has God said about salvation throughout the Bible? "God is nigh unto those who are of a broken heart and saves such as are of a contrite spirit." Psa 34:18

Job 33:26 -- "And if any man shall [pray], 'I have sinned and perverted that which is right and it profited me not,' He will keep his SOUL from going into the pit."

The TEST is prayer repenting to God desiring His salvation, NC. Then and only then can you know that what you have faith in is what God has really said.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
Think about this, NC: What if you believe something that God didn't say in His word. Would you even know it? Salvation is much like the proverbial "scientific method." You believe something but can you prove that it is true? How would you "test" it? By OBEYING what God said. What has God said about salvation throughout the Bible? "God is nigh unto those who are of a broken heart and saves such as are of a contrite spirit." Psa 34:18

Job 33:26 -- "And if any man shall [pray], 'I have sinned and perverted that which is right and it profited me not,' He will keep his SOUL from going into the pit."

The TEST is prayer repenting to God desiring His salvation, NC. Then and only then can you know that what you have faith in is what God has really said.

skypair
I believe it's very instructional to determine what is "cause" and what is "effect." My acceptance is that the sin nature is the cause or source of sin, because the sin nature does not derive from sinning, but sinning is derived from the sin source, just as "the goodness of God" is the source of repentance (Rom 2:4).
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
I believe it's very instructional to determine what is "cause" and what is "effect." My acceptance is that the sin nature is the cause or source of sin, because the sin nature does not derive from sinning, but sinning is derived from the sin source, just as "the goodness of God" is the source of repentance (Rom 2:4).
Let's test that, shall we? We are born the reverse of Adam in creation. Adam knew nothing of his flesh (didn't know he was naked) and was well aware of God (walked in the Garden with Him).

We, on the other hand, are well aware of our flesh and totally ignorant of God and His law. So, since sin and death reside in the flesh .. and since we are well aware of our flesh .. we are tempted to sin by our flesh which, upon sinning, changes the orientation of our life (our "nature") from human nature to sin nature.

Realize, there is no sin in being tempted to sin. Jesus was tempted as we are yet knew no sin, right? We, likewise, no know sin until we are tempted (like Adam) and "fall."

So my question to you is, "Where does the sin nature come from?" The best that can be said is that we have a pre-disposition towards the flesh -- a "negative pre-disposition" towards God after we sin. Are you aware that Adam had an "untested positive predisposition" towards God? (This is dispensational stuff of There Really is a Difference [dispensationalism vs. covenant theology] by Renald Showers). We really are born with this same "untested positive predisposition" as Adam. That is expressed in scripture by "their angels do always behold the face of God."

So when we sin .. when Adam sinned .. we/he had a "tested negative predisposition" towards God -- AKA "sin nature."

Your thoughts?

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
"Where does the sin nature come from?" The best that can be said is that we have a pre-disposition towards the flesh -- a "negative pre-disposition" towards God after we sin.
It's the tempting that brings out that which is within, not instills that which does not exist, but manifests its presence (sin nature). It was not Eve's sin that instilled the sin nature but manifested its presence. I can see the sinful desire in the phrase "to make one wise," (Gen 3:6), but not in "that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes" because this was intended for all trees in the garden (2:9).

It matters not to me whether the sin nature was antecedent to the sinning or not, the issue with me on this subject is that this is the timeline and source of man's origin concerning our sin nature, which is inherited from Adam: "By one man's disobedience all were made sinners" (Rom 5:19), for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23).
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
It's the tempting that brings out that which is within, not instills that which does not exist, but manifests its presence (sin nature).
Well, not to put too fine a point on it .. what exists before the temptation is the desire of the flesh. It is not to satisfy the soul that we sin .. it is to satisfy the flesh, our innate carnality.



It was not Eve's sin that instilled the sin nature but manifested its presence. I can see the sinful desire in the phrase "to make one wise," (Gen 3:6), but not in "that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes" because this was intended for all trees in the garden (2:9).
But doesn't that reply exist when one is ignorant of something? It's not sinful to want to be wise. God blessed Solomon's prayer for that, right? Do even you not ask God for wisdom?



It matters not to me whether the sin nature was antecedent to the sinning or not, the issue with me on this subject is that this is the timeline and source of man's origin concerning our sin nature, which is inherited from Adam: "By one man's disobedience all were made sinners" (Rom 5:19), for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23).[/QUOTE]OK, you MISQUOTED Ro 5:19 to get to your rationale! It says, "For by one man's offense MANY were made sinners; so by the obedience of One shall MANY be made righteous" through salvation in Christ Jesus! And, yes, "all have sinned and come short…" HAVE SINNED means committed sin, NC.

I've been fighting this battle against the false narrative of Calvinism, total depravity/original sin/born spiritually dead for some little time now, NC. Physically, we are born of our parents .. but spiritually, we are created by God, His "offspring." (Acts 17:28-29) That is, we are born innocent like Adam and Eve. When tempted, we fell into sin, like Adam and Eve. If he could have passed his sin on to us, surely he could have passed his justification with God, too. Both are just a change of the state of the soul.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
Well, not to put too fine a point on it .. what exists before the temptation is the desire of the flesh.
Agreed: "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 Jhn 2:15); all of which sequentially parallels Eve's desires in Gen 3:6 and is everyone's nature.

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skypair said:
It is not to satisfy the soul that we sin .. it is to satisfy the flesh, our innate carnality.
To me, the sinful nature is part of the "soul" of man and is what is used to make decisions, therefore it's in the soul that accountability is incurred (soul sometimes refers to the entire person - spirit, soul and body). Our spirit houses the soul, and the body houses the spirit, thus it's against the soul that "fleshly lusts" war (1 Pe 2:11; Jam 4:1). "The body of sin is meant sin itself, which consists as a body does of various members" (Col 3:5). Gill

It should also be established that the word "flesh" in the NT nearly always references the sinful nature of man, for there are those who would often misapply this to intend the physical body.
skypair said:
OK, you MISQUOTED Ro 5:19 to get to your rationale! It says, "For by one man's offense MANY were made sinners; so by the obedience of One shall MANY be made righteous" through salvation in Christ Jesus! And, yes, "all have sinned and come short…" HAVE SINNED means committed sin, NC.
NC said: The word "many" here is in the same sense as "all", and is synonymous with the preceding verse 18 concerning the word "all."
 

skypair

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NC: Agreed: "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 Jhn 2:15); all of which sequentially parallels Eve's desires in Gen 3:6 and is everyone's nature.
But that is just human nature, NC. You are tempted by what you can see, touch, know. What do you think about what Paul said, "I was alive once till the law came in?" (Ro 7:8-9) Though he had sinned (coveted), he was not dead in soul nor in spirit, right? Therefore, he did not have a sin nature and has no guilty conscience, Ezek 18:20.



To me, the sinful nature is part of the "soul" of man and is what is used to make decisions, therefore it's in the soul that accountability is incurred (soul sometimes refers to the entire person - spirit, soul and body). Our spirit houses the soul, and the body houses the spirit, thus it's against the soul that "fleshly lusts" war (1 Pe 2:11; Jam 4:1). "The body of sin is meant sin itself, which consists as a body does of various members" (Col 3:5). Gill
I have a little different account of this. I believe that the soul is in/above the spirit and the spirit in/above the body. There are several reasons for viewing it this way. 1) It is in the image of the Tabernacle. 2) It is the soul where the Holy Spirit or self ("Let your conscience be your guide," right?) indwells and superintends our spirit — just as the superego superintends the ego in Psychology. 3) The spirit (mind, emotions, and will are the first aspect of us that are affected by stimuli. Dr Rogers called it "the shallowest part" of your spiritual self. Thus, it is the battleground between Holy Spirit and the flesh when we are tempted. 4) The spirit holds our beliefs but the soul holds our faith — the things we live by because we have tested them and found them to be true.

So yes, the soul is our "nature" whether human, sin, or divine and superintends the choices and our will made in our spirits. And it is the soul that needs to be saved (Jas 1:21, 5:20, Heb 10:38-39). Furthermore, our spirit never dies. It is our spirit that will experience heaven or hell.



The word "many" here is in the same sense as "all", and is synonymous with the preceding verse 18 concerning the word "all."
But it makes no sense to use "all" here. Christ didn't make all people righteous, did He? If you need a clue, the answer is "No." So we come to the conclusion that the word "many" is necessary and applies also to "many made sinners" because infants and mentally handicapped are "without the law."

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
But that is just human nature, NC. You are tempted by what you can see, touch, know. What do you think about what Paul said, "I was alive once till the law came in?" (Ro 7:8-9) Though he had sinned (coveted), he was not dead in soul nor in spirit, right? Therefore, he did not have a sin nature and has no guilty conscience, Ezek 18:20.
When Paul claimed he "was alive once" refer's to the peace and security he experienced as a Pharisee under the Law, of which when he learned the true sense of the Law found it to reveal to him that all along he was dead in sin.
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
When Paul claimed he "was alive once" refer's to the peace and security he experienced as a Pharisee under the Law, of which when he learned the true sense of the Law found it to reveal to him that all along he was dead in sin.
That's a new one on me. :) Wow! He wasn't even a Pharisee then .. though his father was. He didn't even know the commandments, NC (Ro 7:9)! "When the commandment came in, sin revived, and I died." Can you even imagine a Pharisee that didn't know the commandments???

Let's get serious, shall we? Ro 7 is Paul's personal testimony. It isn't really until 7:22 that we see him loving the law rather than looking on it as an instrument of death. And in 7:24, we see that, though saved in the OT sense, there is NO rest in his soul .. "who shall deliver me…" It isn't until Ro 8:1-2 we see his freedom in the NT salvation in Christ.

But I understand your view. Most of Christianity is swallowed up in this false narrative that we are born that offspring of Satan rather than of God .. that we are created spiritually like fallen Adam rather than in the spiritual image of our Father. It plays right into the hands all of the Reform traditions.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
That's a new one on me. :) Wow! He wasn't even a Pharisee then .. though his father was. He didn't even know the commandments, NC (Ro 7:9)! "When the commandment came in, sin revived, and I died."
"When the commandment came" means when he finally understood the spiritual meaning of the Law. Pharisees and Sadducees did not fully understand the spiritual meaning of the law of God.
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
"When the commandment came" means when he finally understood the spiritual meaning of the Law. Pharisees and Sadducees did not fully understand the spiritual meaning of the law of God.
How old were you when you knew the 10 commandments? How old when you knew you had broken one of them? How old when you were convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin (Jn 16:8-10)? Did that knowledge lead you to any kind of rest before you received Christ as Savior? I wonder if you, as you see Saul, were at "ease and secure" because you believed, like the Pharisees, that you were "elect." Is that it? Because Saul sure wasn't according to 7:22-25.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
How old were you when you knew the 10 commandments? How old when you knew you had broken one of them? How old when you were convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin (Jn 16:8-10)? Did that knowledge lead you to any kind of rest before you received Christ as Savior? I wonder if you, as you see Saul, were at "ease and secure" because you believed, like the Pharisees, that you were "elect." Is that it? Because Saul sure wasn't according to 7:22-25.

skypair
Give this a test view by Gill:

"For I was alive without the law once,...." 'The apostle says this, not in the person of Adam, as some have thought; who lived indeed, in a state of innocence, a perfectly holy and righteous life, but not without the law, which was the rule of his actions, and the measure of his obedience; he had the law of nature written upon his heart, and a positive law respecting the forbidden fruit given him, as a trial of his obedience; and though when he transgressed he became mortal, yet sin could not be said to revive in him, which never lived before; nor does the apostle speak in the person of a Jew, or the whole body of the people of Israel before the law was given on Mount Sinai; before that time the sons of Abraham did not live without a law; for besides the law of nature, which they had in common with others, they were acquainted with other laws of God, as the laws of circumcision, sacrifices, and the several duties of religion; see Genesis 18:19.

"When the law did come from Mount Sinai, it had not such effects upon them as are here expressed: but the apostle is speaking of himself, and that not as in his state of infancy before he could discern between good and evil, but when grown up, and whilst a Pharisee; who, though he was born under the law, was brought up and more perfectly instructed in it than the common people were, and was a strict observer of it, yet was without the knowledge of the spirituality of it; he, as the rest of the Pharisees, thought it only regarded the outward actions, and did not reach to the spirits or souls of men, the inward thoughts and affections of the mind; the law was as it were at a distance from him, it had not as yet entered into his heart and conscience; and whilst this was his case he was "alive," he did not know that he "was dead in trespasses and sins," Ephesians 2:1, a truth he afterwards was acquainted with.

"Nor that he was so much as disordered by sin; he thought himself healthful, sound, and whole, when he was diseased and full of wounds, bruises, and sores, from head to foot; he lived in the utmost peace and tranquillity, without the least ruffle and uneasiness, free from any terror or despondency, and in perfect security, being in sure and certain hope of eternal life; and concluded if ever any man went to heaven he certainly should, since, as he imagined, he lived a holy and righteous life, free of all blame, and even to perfection."
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
"...he ... thought it only regarded the outward actions, and did not reach to the spirits or souls of men, the inward thoughts and affections of the mind; the law was as it were at a distance from him, it had not as yet entered into his heart and conscience; and whilst this was his case he was "alive,"

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Absolutely -- we ALL are like this, the sin not affecting our heart or conscience (SOUL) until we knowingly transgress against the law.




...he did not know that he "was dead in trespasses and sins," Ephesians 2:1, a truth he afterwards was acquainted with.
Nor, indeed, was he. This is why we say of prospective converts that "You have to get them lost before you can saved them." It is the Reform tradition won't to avoid getting them lost and say that, if they believe the gospel, they are saved. They will then, of course, "tip the hat" to what horrible, God-hating sinners they were before they were "saved."



"Nor that he was so much as disordered by sin; he thought himself healthful, sound, and whole, when he was diseased and full of wounds, bruises, and sores, from head to foot; he lived in the utmost peace and tranquillity, without the least ruffle and uneasiness, free from any terror or despondency, and in perfect security, being in sure and certain hope of eternal life; and concluded if ever any man went to heaven he certainly should, since, as he imagined, he lived a holy and righteous life, free of all blame, and even to perfection."
This is denied by his own words, NC. He said that he sinned before he knew the commandment but he was "without the law" .. therefore, not guilty, innocent. How can Gill say he was "without the law" as a Pharisee???

You know what I have come to think? We are all believers, followers, and disciples of Christ even BEFORE we are saved. And think about it .. that was true of Jesus own disciples, too. They weren't saved until either Jn 22 when Jesus had already arose or at Pentecost! Basically, Calvinism sets folks up to be UNSAVED disciples of Jesus for life never really coming to repentance from the old man. Do you know what Jesus calls those who are trying to obey His commands? Trying to be His disciples? "Friends." (Jn 15:14) Wouldn't you rather be called "brother?"

Do you know what that looks like in the judgment? Rev 2-3 -- Jesus told every one of those churches that they had done works worthy of being disciples -- but also said that only "some" ("have not soiled their garments") in the churches were saved. What did He tell them to do? "Repent..."

skypair
 

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skypair said:
How can Gill say he was "without the law" as a Pharisee???
As mentioned previously, the phrase "without the law" (v 9) means without the spiritual meaning of the law while he was under it. It wasn't until his rebirth from faith in Christ--by the Spirit, when he learned this.

skypair said:
You know what I have come to think? We are all believers, followers, and disciples of Christ even BEFORE we are saved.
Before the Spirit was "given," faith in Christ saved, same as faith in God before Christ was given. After the Spirit was given faith is received only upon receiving the Spirit, which also enables rebirth for entry in the Kingdom of God.
 

skypair

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As mentioned previously, the phrase "without the law" (v 9) means without the spiritual meaning of the law while he was under it. It wasn't until his rebirth from faith in Christ--by the Spirit, when he learned this.
Are you saying that he didn't know that sin had spiritual consequences while he was a Pharisee? Sure he did .. he knew everything about the spiritual consequences of sin seeing as how he understood that the blood of the Pascal lamb each year only covered the sin on his conscience until he sinned again, Heb 10. Now as a child he wouldn't understand the repercussions of sin on his soul, would he?

Just your own testimony .. when were you aware that your sin left guilt on your soul AND separation from God? Very likely it was just like Saul/Paul, right? Your testimony would be very similar to Paul's in Ro 7. I know mine is. I was alive [to God] once without the law, but the commandment entered, sin revived, and I died [to God] and lived for self.



Before the Spirit was "given," faith in Christ saved, same as faith in God before Christ was given. After the Spirit was given faith is received only upon receiving the Spirit, which also enables rebirth for entry in the Kingdom of God.
How do you picture faith being "given" in the OT? It has always been the same way, NC. The Spirit spoke from the outside and we believed. Then we repented denying self and living for God. And God, seeing our repentance, gave us salvation .. and gave us blessings as often as we chose His will over our own. Under the new covenant, He also gave us His Spirit.

skypair
 

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skypair said:
Are you saying that he didn't know that sin had spiritual consequences while he was a Pharisee?
The spiritual meaning of the Mosaic Law is God revealing the inability for man to be union and fellowship with Him, which requires a perfect, sinless heart and mind, a human condition that only the Lord Jesus has effected, and of which those born again will be brought to in the resurrection!

God's plan was not man's perfection, but man attaining to this in His Son now, and in ourselves later when the existence of sin and death are removed.

I agree that for all believers it's God who eventually enlightens them to the severity and seriousness of evil, but this is only for the revealing of His holiness through contrasting the two, all the while teaching us total God-dependence in Christ, not self.
 

skypair

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I find my testimony to be very much as I understand Paul's to be. I considered my soul to be alive to God through Presbie, Methodist, Congregational, and "Christian" churches. The law was there but I never took it seriously because of these churches were not telling me of the consequences of sin. Then, of course, I sinned again and again. Not only that but I realized that sin had messed up my life. Suddenly, just believing in Christ didn't help at all. I had to change make a change within myself -- in my inner man. Having the law in my heart like Paul didn't help.

But in order to have the Spirit in my heart, I had to dethrone self (that's the best way I can explain it) and give my life to Christ and His Spirit. That's like the rich young ruler giving away all his wealth .. or like taking up my cross, die for my sin, give up "ghost" so that Jesus could live in me.

Here's an interesting way to look at it. Remember when Moses died and Satan asked God for his body? Well, that's sort of what God is asking for -- we die to our own spirit and soul ("Thoughts and way," Isa 55:7-8). Then God inhabits our body and gives it spiritual life again. But He can't do it unless we die first, 1Cor 15:36.

Imagine being born again "from scratch." None of your wisdom (thoughts and ways) are any good anymore. You are as "one of these little ones" and can see and enter the kingdom of God because of it. It was amazing being a "babe in Christ."

I don't know about you, but that is my case. It is like Paul's and I can speak wisely about his testimony as I can about mine -- unlike Gill.

skypair