1 Corinthians 9: 20-21

[Ziggy]

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


How do you hear this?

 

[farouk]

@Ziggy For example, Paul warns against compulsory circumcision, because people who tried to compel it were imposing law-keeping when believers are free of it. But then also Paul circumcised Timothy, because although it would do him no good in itself the fact that Jews knew he had been circumcised would give Timothy more of a hearing from them with the Gospel message.

 

[farouk]

@Ziggy YW...

 

[Ziggy]

God made a covenant with Abraham. This covenant is an outward sign that those who are Abraham's by faith have this sign in their flesh.
This wasn't a law.. it was a promise.
Lots of 8 day old babies still get circumcised today.
Many will claim it's for health and sanitary reasons..
but it began with Abraham.. it didn't start in a hospital or a clinic.

Thank You

 

[farouk]

God made a covenant with Abraham. This covenant is an outward sign that those who are Abraham's by faith have this sign in their flesh.
This wasn't a law.. it was a promise.
Lots of 8 day old babies still get circumcised today.
Many will claim it's for health and sanitary reasons..
but it began with Abraham.. it didn't start in a hospital or a clinic.

Thank You

Paul does say that if done compulsorily it is a concession to law-keeping; Gentiles who come to Christ don't need to be circumcised.

 

[Ziggy]

Paul does say that if done compulsorily it is a concession to law-keeping; Gentiles who come to Christ don't need to be circumcised.

That's what Paul said
Thank You

 

[farouk]

That's what Paul said
Thank You

@Ziggy Well, Paul's writings are Scripture.

 

[Ziggy]

There's a lot of scripture they left out of the bible too.
They call that apocrypha because they didn't agree with what they wrote.

 

[farouk]

There's a lot of scripture they left out of the bible too.
They call that apocrypha because they didn't agree with what they wrote.

@Ziggy, Well the Deuterocanonical books were never part of the canon of Scripture; they are tradition, rather than the Spirit-inspired Word of God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


How do you hear this?

going to bed it is midnight here. Before I do though on the other thread I’m not sure I fully shared what this means to me. Only an opinion but how many today are willing to be all things to all men ...but instead stand high in what they want others to see them as ‘I believe this’ and lift up their theologies more than lift others up. under the law of Christ; is the law of Christ more about the people and not the theologies. How many today would be willing to suffer shame in going somewhere and being seen and then asked ... “I thought you believed differently.” Is the above not about liberty in serving Christ that it doesn’t matter ...and liberty to become all things to all men and that doesn’t mean tossed around but in service to Christ rather than men. Men’s opinion of who we are and what we stand for, to where there is a constriction to image of denomination? I mean ...if we are standing with Christ then ‘to the weak I became as weak’ that I might gain (receive) the weak...does that mean weak or as weak ...that I receive those who are weak?

reminds me of Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.


Same as to those without the law ...yet not without the Law of God but under the Law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6-13 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. [7] Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. [8] But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. [9] But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. [10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; [11] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. [13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

also reminds me of His standing with the adulterous woman. Was he approving of adultery or...that He might gain the adulterous woman, He stood with her.

 

[Ziggy]

also reminds me of His standing with the adulterous woman. Was he approving of adultery or...that He might gain the adulterous woman, He stood with her.

I don't believe he was standing with her in her adultery.
He was making those around condemning her, admit that they were just as guilty and had no righteousness on which to stand to judge her.
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

What they do?? They wanted to kill her and cover up their own sin...
it don't work that way.
Then Jesus told her... Keep doing what your doing.. it's ok..
no.. he said go, and sin no more.. stop sinning.
stop breaking the law.
Is this God's law or Christ's law?

Sleep well,
HUGS
Thank You

 

[ReChoired]

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

How do you hear this?

It's simple. "under the law" refers to the OT scriptures and the agreement that the Hebrews had made in Exodus 19.

Thus being "without law", refers to the Gentiles living in ignorance of that law (OT scripture, and agreement; so even though a Gentile did not have the oracles of God which the Hebrews/Jews possessed and the promise associated with the agreement in Exodus 19, all mankind had transgressed God's Law of Ten Commandments none the less and stood guilty, both Jew and Gentile).

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;​

Paul used the law (scriptures, OT) to convince Jews:

Act_18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.​

Paul did not use the law (scripture, OT) to convince Gentiles at the first (He used logic and Creation, for what does an unbelieving Genitile know about scripture at the first? Nothing):

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
​

It is only when the Gentiles began to believe (repented and were becoming or were already become followers, like Cornelius; &c) that Paul would refer them to the scriptures:

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

Also, Paul would keep some of the ceremonial things around Jews, so as not to offend the Jews that they might hear what the OT had to say about Jesus:

Act_16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.​

Yet, in other places, Paul made a stand showing that circumcision (flesh) was unnecessary:

Gal_2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
​

The "law to God" is the Ten Commandments which is necessary to obey in all situations.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Is this God's law or Christ's law?

John 7:16-19 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. [18] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. [19] Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's simple. "under the law" refers to the OT scriptures and the agreement that the Hebrews had made in Exodus 19.

Thus being "without law", refers to the Gentiles living in ignorance of that law (OT scripture, and agreement; so even though a Gentile did not have the oracles of God which the Hebrews/Jews possessed and the promise associated with the agreement in Exodus 19, all mankind had transgressed God's Law of Ten Commandments none the lews and stood guilty, both Jew and Gentile).

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;​

Paul used the law (scriptures, OT) to convince Jews:

Act_18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.​

Paul did not use the law (scripture, OT) to convince Gentiles at the first (He used logic and Creation, for what does an unbelieving Genitile know about scripture at the first? Nothing):

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
​

It is only when the Gentiles began to believe (repented and were becoming or were already become followers, like Cornelius; &c) that Paul would refer them to the scriptures:

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

Also, Paul would keep some of the ceremonial things around Jews, so as not to offend the Jews that they might hear what the OT had to say about Jesus:

Act_16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.​

Yet, in other places, Paul made a stand showing that circumcision (flesh) was unnecessary:

Gal_2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
​

The "law to God" is the Ten Commandments which is necessary to obey in all situations.

yet we could say “see there, I haven’t ever murdered anyone” ...while at the same time going about to kill babes in Christ before they form so they perish and therefore sin against Christ. We can say we don’t steal but then steal the words of God away and out from another. we can crush others, destroy them, tear them down and murder in the streets all the while professing our own goodness in “see, we do not murder or steal anything” We can wound another, wound the weak and yet claim no damage done. We can tear others down to build ourselves up but claim to keep the Law of Christ and the Law of Love. We can claim to keep the Sabbath by observation of Saturday or Sunday or whatever while being the flaming sword turning every way to keep others and even ourselves from entering in and partaking of Life.

 

[Ziggy]

When Joshua brought the children of Israel into the promised land, all of this territory was under Israel control for many years.
12 Tribes each with lots of inheritance that contained towns and cities they conquered from the gentiles living there.
Sometime in 300-400 years before the Birth of Christ, Rome had come in and conquered them.
They had fallen away and began taking up the habits of the people still living in their lands. They began worshiping their gods and their idols. And they turned from God. God sent in Babylon, and finally Rome to get them to turn back.
So from the time Joshua enters Palestine/Israel.. all the lands around them know, hear, learn, observe, things that the Israelites wer doing in the Temple and in the synagogues.
It's difficult for me to believe that after all those years that the people living in that are didn't know or were ignorant of at least the ten commandments.
The gentiles may not have been "under" the law, but I believe everyone is born with at least the smallest bit of moral conduct towards ones neighbor.

But then again.. looking at the world today... makes one wonder.. are they dissapearing?
THAT'S SCARY!

Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

John 7:16-19 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. [18] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. [19] Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So if Jesus said the doctrine was not his but his who sent him...
that would be God??
Then what is Christ's law that Paul mentions?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So if Jesus said the doctrine was not his but his who sent him...
that would be God??
Then what is Christ's law that Paul mentions?

that given of God. Which the Son is.

 

[Ziggy]

(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)

NLT: When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.
Christ = "anointed"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

NLT: When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.
Christ = "anointed"

Makes me think of: 1 Peter 3:1 KJV
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

‘...they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives’
To remove Paul as a wolf no one should take seriously is to destroy what is ‘without the word be won by the conversation’? Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 4:20-22 But ye have not so learned Christ; [21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

2 Corinthians 1:10-12 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us ; [11] Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf. [12] For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

James 3:13 seems to agree: Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

1 Peter 2:12 seems to agree: Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Galatians 1:23-24 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. [24] And they glorified God in me.

1 Peter 3:15-16 seems to agree: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [16] Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@Ziggy you never answered if Stephen would rejoice that the one who the coats was laid at his feet consenting to Stephen's death...was won by Christ?
That one sinner which by his on confession destroyed much good was destroyed?
Ecclesiastes 9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.
What weapon was Paul telling Timothy of:
1 Timothy 1:18-19 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; [19] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

2 Corinthians 10:4-7 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; [6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. [7] Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
^a wolf not to be taken seriously?

Consider the following Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Consider the magnitude of the above with 2 Corinthians 12:19-21 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. [20] For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: [21] And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.