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Featured 1 Jn 3:8: "I am a sinner saved by grace"

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I am curious as to what people think of the following scripture...

    1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    I wonder if when people say such things as, "I am a sinner saved by grace;" that they realize that they are in effect saying, "I am a child of the devil who is nevertheless going to heaven."

    Do the children of God therefore go to hell?

    If the above statement (in larger letters) does not bother you, then I just wonder about your moral rectitude as a believer.

    This along the lines of the subject of whether repentance is needed for salvation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    It is...I was blind but now I see. I was a sinner but now I walk by grace. But this standard seems out of reach for many.

    I think that the standard has been lowered to accommodate people...rather than the people lifted into God's holy standard.
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    So then, what of the trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief (1 Timothy 1:15)?
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    And the fact that in Psalms 51:3, my sin is ever before me?
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    And the fact that all have sinned and (presently) come short of the glory of the Lord (Romans 3:23)?
     
  6. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    So you think Paul continued to kill Christians as a sideline?
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point, thank you.
     
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  8. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Agree , Paul was speaking of who he was once....= the chief of sinners.


    @justbyfaith ...your quote - "my sin ever before me.." was way back before the days of -
    "The cross before me sin and the world behind me"
    David at that time, could not sing that song.

    If God choses NOT to remember our sins any more...who are we to keep raking them up!! ( making Him a liar)
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
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  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Here is my reasoning: there is a teaching in the church that we are all sinners saved by grace, who are saved; would this not mean that those who are saved by grace, who are in Christ, are committers of sin, and therefore children of the devil?

    That would make Christ the devil.

    However, the following scripture refutes such an idea:

    1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    If I am a sinner saved by grace, then I am a child of the devil and also redeemed. Christ would therefore be the devil because the scripture says,

    1Jo 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    It would mean that having the Son makes me a sinner and that therefore the goal of the commandment is not charity but sin (see 1 Timothy 1:5).

    The reality is that if I abide in Christ, I sin not; and there is a sense in which my understanding that Christ is God rather than the devil depends on whether I see believers as being good trees bearing only good fruit.

    We need revival; for the Lord is most certainly able to sanctify His people; but certain heretical doctrines in the church (such as the inevitablity of sin) turn out to be in slander of God's name and make the gospel ineffective in the lives of unbelievers (and believers alike).

    When the church is not holy, unbelievers do not come to faith; because they consider that the tree is bad because they see bad fruit on it: who wants to be a branch in a tree that is sick and unhealthy and can only produce rotten fruit?

    Now in the NASB and in the NIV isaiah 14:12 unfortunately calls the devil "the morning star" but this is the title for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

    If those of us who are saved by grace are all sinners, then Jesus might as well be the devil of hell.

    However, the scripture is clear that those who truly abide in Christ sin not...and this means that the fruit is good and that Christ is God rather than the devil.

    I am attempting to force some Christians out of sinful lifestyles in these statements. If anyone wants to be a witness for Christ, if they are sinners and proudly call themselves sinners-saved-by-grace, then let them understand that they are preaching a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible, in that their Jesus is a bad tree bearing bad fruit and with the knowledge that we have of the holy scriptures today they are preaching a jesus who is the devil of hell himself.

    Therefore allow Christ to sanctify you today. Surrender to Him: believe that He is good and that if you put your trust in Him he will sanctify your life; and He will. For the Jesus of the Bible is a good tree.

    Mat 7:15, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    Mat 7:16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mat 7:17, Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mat 7:18, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Mat 7:19, Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 7:20, Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Mat 12:26, And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
    Mat 12:27, And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
    Mat 12:28, But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
    Mat 12:29, Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
    Mat 12:30, He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
    Mat 12:31, Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    Mat 12:32, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
    Mat 12:33, Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
    Mat 12:34, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
    Mat 12:35, A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

    I would go as far to say, based on the scriptures at hand, that to call one's self a sinner saved by grace is at the very least borderline blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

    Does anybody not see it?
     
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  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Therefore it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me . . .

    In Christ, we are not the sinner any longer.

    Much love!
     
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  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Is that out of Romans 7?

    So, you're saying that we all sin because it is sin dwelling in you that is doing the sinning, and not you.

    The practical outworking of this is still that you are committing sins in the practical sense, and blaming it on sin.

    Romans 7:14-25 is Paul's use of the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION as he identifies himself as carnal in order to define carnality.

    Therefore, the verses that you are referring to are referring to the behaviour of a carnal believer, that he commits sin and then blames it on sin dwelling in him.

    The spiritual believer does not do that.

    Try again.
     
  12. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

    I think a key word is the verb 'committeth' which being in the present tense denotes a sustained, ongoing, continuous action.

    Even though a Christian sins it does not make him a sinner for the Christian repents of his sin and does not continue in it. Whereas a sinner impenitently continues in sin.
    If a person living in adultery became a Christian, he repents and does not continue to live in that sin whereas the sinner would continue to impenitently live in adultery. 1 John 1:7 IF the Christian continues to walk in the light, then Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins and that continual washing away of all sins leaves the Christian holy and without blame, without spot or wrinkle,
    (Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 5:27) and not a sinner stained with sin.
     
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    So to be clear, your view is that when Paul wrote that it is no longer himself that does the evil, instead, that it's sin living in him, that he actually meant that he himself commits the evil, even though he said it was not so?

    Then Paul was a carnal believer, this is your view?

    We persist in the idea that we are both sinner and saint, righteous and unrighteous, holy and unholy all at the same time.

    Yet over and over God shows us that we were the sinner, and are now the saint, we were unholy, and now are sanctified. Now we are righteous, and we are to take the righteousness and live it out in our lives.

    I was a wild animal ranging through the world taking what I wanted, destroying what I destroyed. God gave birth to a new Mark, who is not that animal. But it's on me to control that animal. And I do that by not giving it access to my hands, my feet, my mind. The new mind, to control those hands and feet and all.

    If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

    It's not about choosing to commit this sin, or choosing to do that righteousness. Its about asserting my walk in the Spirit, choosing to live that life, and then sin is overwhelmed, as it never had any real power anyway.

    We never need to try to not sin. That way never worked anyway. We only need to trust in Jesus to make our lives as He wants, and we find that it is so.

    Much love!
     
  14. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    This is not directed to you but is what Is see.

    The flesh is of the Devil because it is sinful. But those that are made children of God, by God, their spirit is born of God who can call the things that are to be the things that are not and the things that are not to be the things that are. Everyone, even the children of God, live in a sinful body that sins. But now there is no condemnation for those that are placed in Christ, by God, Romans 8:1. The child of God has been imputed with God's righteousness.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    If he does not continue in it then he will not commit it again; and therefore it cannot be a continuous action. The scripture in question tells us that he who committeth sin is of the devil. If this is referring to continuous action, then committing a singular sin does not make one of the devil. I disagree. Jesus said that he who committeth sin is the slave of sin. And the word "committeth" in English refers to committing it even one time. Telling me that the original Greek word renders it as a continuous action is not going to cut it for me; because there is no way of actually being a Berean about it unless you can read Greek. So you have an advantage if you wanted to preach a false doctrine by saying "the original Greek actually renders it this way." And you may be able to deceive someone with this if they want to believe you. But my encouragement is that you turn away from being a sinner; and not commit any sin any more, as you perceive me to be saying this in the Englsih language, and not changing my words like you have changed God's.

    I have said it many times; he was using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION. He became as weak in order to win the weak. He identified himself as carnal in order to define carnality (Romans 7:14). But he himself was not carnal; otherwise he would not have been able to be a penner of holy scripture; for God would not use an unholy vessel to accomplish the work of producing holy scripture.

    Reminds me of the secular song, I'm a b*tch I'm a lover."

    It had power over us before we were saved.

    Then they are not children of God; they are children of the devil. Are you saying that God is the devil?

    Let me remind you again what the scripture says:

    1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    who walk not after the flesh...that means not sinning against the Lord by doing anything that is of the flesh.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    There you go again wanting to put your words in my mouth.

    It seems you are not able to separate the flesh from the spirit. But God does. What do you make of the words of Paul when he said he had no confidence in the flesh?

    The children of God do not walk in the flesh because they have no confidence in it not sinning. They walk in the spirit when they can see that they sin in the flesh and know that the only thing that can save them is what Jesus did on the cross. They walk in faith. Faith has no physical substance. It is spiritual in nature.

    Since you say so much about me let me say this about you; Your ID on the forum is deceiving. I certainly do not see that what you believe is just about faith. You add what man has to do and refuse to acknowledge that Jesus did everything necessary for a person to be saved on the cross where He paid for the sins of all mankind. The children of God have been saved because they accept the fact that they can not save themselves by what they do (walking in the flesh) and accept the works of Jesus on the cross as their salvation.
     
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  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    imo you are taking a very one-sided view here maybe, and allowing no room for if we say we have no sin? If you then, being evil?

    but i think i get your point there, and it would seem to be a healthy thing. Maybe its propensity to generate pride is why we dont um go there? usually i mean

    and shouldnt confession be maybe more prominent in our repentance model anyway? Imo "godly sorrow" will manifest first in confession, yet i never seem to read this coming from another xtian; i did actually read a rare one this am tho
     
  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Ouch!

    But aren't you the one saying, Paul said this was so, but it's not? He used those words, but it's a literary device, and his actual words aren't really true? Isn't this you POV?
     
  19. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Is it not true that every saint is indeed a sinner saved by grace? If no one was a sinner to begin with, no one would need salvation. So what we have here is simply an attempt to avoid the plain unvarnished truth -- that every human being is a sinner in God's eyes, and every saint is merely a sinner saved by grace and kept by the power of God.

    Let's move on. There's nothing to discuss.
     
  20. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    If a Christian continues impenitently in sin then he is serving "sin unto death" and is lost, Romans 6:16. A Christian will never be perfectly sinless, so he must continue to repent of sins. Repenting of a sin does not mean it will be impossible for him to ever commit that sin again.

    Matthew 18:21-22 regardless of how many times a Christian sins, he is to be forgiven when he repents. God forgives him each and every time when he repents.

    Your positions appears to be the Christian must be perfectly sinless which is not possible 1 John 1:7-10.
     
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