2. Israel in the End Times

[Pipiripi]

But this time the second coming of Christ. They believe that Jesus is coming to return, after a secret rapture of the church and setup His kingdom in Israel and rule There for thousand year millennium. The Bible prophecy teachers today are so focus on war and destruction in Israel, that they are missing the great spiritual application of God's kingdom, just as the disciples did during 'Jesus' first coming.
Luke 17:20-21....' And when He was demand of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh NOT with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo, Here! or lo there! For behold, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU.'

Do you see what Jesus is saying in the above Bible verse? He explaining in clear words that the kingdom is a "SPIRITUAL" one. And yet the disciples were still clinging to the belief that Christ would set up a physical kingdom to rule from on earth, just like the prophecy teachers of today ....Luke 24:21.....'But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel."....They were still holding on to that nation, and when Jesus died on the cross, their hopes were crushed! They just didn't understand the spiritual application of Israel and the kingdom of God, until the day of Pentecost.

Now there is a bible verse that many Christians love to quote when defending their belief in the literal nation of Israel being the end time kingdom. ....Matthew 10:34.....'Think not that I am come to send peace on earth :I came not to send peace, but a "sword." That Jesus was talking about was HIS WORD, HIS TEACHINGS... 'Ephesians 6:17.......' And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the sword of God."...His word was the "dobble edges sword" that would bring division throughout the world.

Many sincere Christians have been deceived by the Roman Catholic Jesuits. How? Because after the Protestant Reformers revealed the Roman Catholic Church as the antichrist church. The Jesuits were commissioned in a "counter reformation" to invent new interpretations of end time Bible prophetic, in a bit to takes people eyes off the Papal Church as antichrist. This day greatly succeeded as many Christians now adopt the false Jesuit interpretation of Bible prophecy. And not only that many of the protestant churches are now uniting again with the Papal Church!
To be continued....

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

Good post,

Luke 17:20-21....' And when He was demand of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh NOT with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo, Here! or lo there! For behold, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU.'

Yes, this is a Spiritual Kingdom, and yes it came on Pentecost. and it was not observed, but manifested in the Spiritual Gifts. John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.John 18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

he came on Pentecost,

Now, no observation from the world.

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him".

how did the Lord Jesus Manifested himself,

scripture, Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". this is the MANIFESTATION Judas asked about. to be sure of this MANIFESTATION in Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". and one of the "manifestation" of the Spirit that was given on Pentecost is listed here in 1 Corinthians 12 at verse 10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues". the apostle Peter spoke with diver tongues on Pentecost, as the Spirit gave him utterance.

Now, to abode, or abide or indwelling, John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 "Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you".

conclusion: the Kingdom came on Pentecost, in Spirit, and in POWER. his next "appearance", not another manifestation, but his second "appearance" will be in bodily form. supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation".

PCY.

 

[Willie T]

I imagine those Endtimes were a very rough period for Israel. All the Bible accounts of those days sure sound like it was miserable for them.

 

[Pipiripi]

I imagine those Endtimes were a very rough period for Israel. All the Bible accounts of those days sure sound like it was miserable for them.

Not only Israel, but the whole world. The greatest deception of Satan is let people focus on Israel in end times.

 

[Willie T]

Not only Israel, but the whole world. The greatest deception of Satan is let people focus on Israel in end times.

That's about the first thing you've said that made sense to me..... though only partially.

 

[Naomi25]

I am not a Dispensationalist. I do not hold to Israel rebuilding the temple, and then being the seat of the thousand year Kingdom on earth.
But....do you guys not finding it interesting that the Jews are where they are? What are the odds that a people group could hold to it's heritage for 2000 years, let alone manage, after all the persecution they've been through, to get back their own home land? Don't you see it as interesting, at the very least?
I think, looking at the Jews, even after 70AD, we must make a couple of observations.

1: The world hates them. No people group (apart, perhaps, from the Christians) have been more hated than the Jews. And for what reason? None, really. To the point where the extreme hatred and pointed persecution of the Jews can only be said to be demonic.
2: The fact that the Jews went from a scattered, decimated people after WW2 to a re-seated, strong, flourishing nation back in their own home land in 70 years, is nothing short of a miracle.

The conclusion from this? God is not done with them, and Satan hates them for it. I suspect Romans 9-11 speak to this, rather than any grand end times machinations. But I, for one, will not join Satan and the world in cursing them. I pray for them and watch with interest, and hope that very soon Jesus will begin calling more and more to be his; showing again, the riches of his love, mercy and grace!

 

[APAK]

I am not a Dispensationalist. I do not hold to Israel rebuilding the temple, and then being the seat of the thousand year Kingdom on earth.
But....do you guys not finding it interesting that the Jews are where they are? What are the odds that a people group could hold to it's heritage for 2000 years, let alone manage, after all the persecution they've been through, to get back their own home land? Don't you see it as interesting, at the very least?
I think, looking at the Jews, even after 70AD, we must make a couple of observations.

1: The world hates them. No people group (apart, perhaps, from the Christians) have been more hated than the Jews. And for what reason? None, really. To the point where the extreme hatred and pointed persecution of the Jews can only be said to be demonic.
2: The fact that the Jews went from a scattered, decimated people after WW2 to a re-seated, strong, flourishing nation back in their own home land in 70 years, is nothing short of a miracle.

The conclusion from this? God is not done with them, and Satan hates them for it. I suspect Romans 9-11 speak to this, rather than any grand end times machinations. But I, for one, will not join Satan and the world in cursing them. I pray for them and watch with interest, and hope that very soon Jesus will begin calling more and more to be his; showing again, the riches of his love, mercy and grace!

Naomi25: This is not a trick question. Which Jews are you referring to in your writing, the original ones of Judea and the House of Judah, or those of a different region; the contemporary ones, where many inhabit the State of Israel today. You seem to mix both types as being the same.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Naomi25]

Naomi25: This is not a trick question. Which Jews are you referring to in your writing, the original ones of Judea and the House of Judah, or those of a different region; the contemporary ones, where many inhabit the State of Israel today. You seem to mix both types as being the same.

Bless you,

APAK

Well, if we're speaking of Romans 11, and God grafting 'all' Israel back to his Olive tree in a wondrous "full inclusion"....then I imagine we're talking about those of Jewish blood. And beyond that, it's up to God. Will it mean every single person currently residing in the land of Israel? I doubt it. But great numbers of them? I think that is what the text points to.

 

[APAK]

Well, if we're speaking of Romans 11, and God grafting 'all' Israel back to his Olive tree in a wondrous "full inclusion"....then I imagine we're talking about those of Jewish blood. And beyond that, it's up to God. Will it mean every single person currently residing in the land of Israel? I doubt it. But great numbers of them? I think that is what the text points to.

I started a thread yesterday entitled "Today’s Jews the same as the ones in the Bible?" under the Christian debate forum. My answer is posted there.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Naomi25]

I started a thread yesterday entitled "Today’s Jews the same as the ones in the Bible?" under the Christian debate forum. My answer is posted there.

Bless you,

APAK

Do you think, should God choose to gather in a great number of remaining Jews, that it will matter to him? Or if it does, that he will not know which 'Jews' he means to save? Which means, largely, that it is moot to us, does it not? Just like we cannot know which Gentiles he will choose to save or not...doesn't mean we don't pray for and preach to the whole....

 

[Copperhead]

Came across this video yesterday and it seems to be on point with the OP's topic. May not be any more correct than any other theory on the issue, but it is a fascinating take on things nonetheless. Worth watching, if for nothing more than to see how the author puts his theory together.

 

[Davy]

I am not a Dispensationalist. I do not hold to Israel rebuilding the temple, and then being the seat of the thousand year Kingdom on earth.

That there will be a Millennial temple in Jerusalem on earth during Christ's future thousand years reign is shown in Ezekiel 40-47. It is hinted to in Daniel 9. That is not a Dispensationalist doctrine. Christ's Church will be who it is there that will reign with Jesus over the nations, which is shown also by Rev.20 about the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth. If you don't believe in that as written, then it must mean you believe the Church is living somewhere up in the clouds during Christ's thousand years reign, which is... a Dispensationalist doctrine.

But....do you guys not finding it interesting that the Jews are where they are? What are the odds that a people group could hold to it's heritage for 2000 years, let alone manage, after all the persecution they've been through, to get back their own home land? Don't you see it as interesting, at the very least?
I think, looking at the Jews, even after 70AD, we must make a couple of observations.

1: The world hates them. No people group (apart, perhaps, from the Christians) have been more hated than the Jews. And for what reason? None, really. To the point where the extreme hatred and pointed persecution of the Jews can only be said to be demonic.
2: The fact that the Jews went from a scattered, decimated people after WW2 to a re-seated, strong, flourishing nation back in their own home land in 70 years, is nothing short of a miracle.

If you study the OT prophets more, you'll discover where God made that promise to them, and to David, and to Jerusalem, that He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem (1 Kings 11), and how He would scatter them for their abominations (Deut.4), but not make them lose their heritage like He did with the ten tribes (Hosea).

If the Jews today are so hated, then why do they have groups like the Anti-Defamation League that intentiionally works against Christianity?

If Christians Fail, America Will Fail'

"The Jewish people have the Anti-Defamation League, and you have started an "anti-defamation league" for Christians. Why?

The Anti-Defamation League has come up before. It was started more than a hundred years ago to respond to anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, it's changed over time. It's one of many "mainline" organizations that basically have been taken over by liberals. And today, rather than fighting anti-Semitism, per se, a lot of what it does has nothing to do with combating anti-Semitism, but rather promoting the Left's agenda."

ADL smears against the Christian Right:
The ADL: More about the "monitors"


Like others have said here, WHICH Jews is one speaking about, the original Jews of the house of Judah, or the contemporary converted Jews, which are a majority in the state of Israel today?

Obviously, the fact that those above Jews would start an "anti-defamation league for Christians" points more towards the original Jews of the house of Judah.

 

[Naomi25]

That there will be a Millennial temple in Jerusalem on earth during Christ's future thousand years reign is shown in Ezekiel 40-47. It is hinted to in Daniel 9. That is not a Dispensationalist doctrine. Christ's Church will be who it is there that will reign with Jesus over the nations, which is shown also by Rev.20 about the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth. If you don't believe in that as written, then it must mean you believe the Church is living somewhere up in the clouds during Christ's thousand years reign, which is... a Dispensationalist doctrine.

Well...I think one could make an argument that Ezekiel 40-47 is talking about 'the age to come'...once the 'new Jerusalem' has come down (which would include a new Temple) from heaven (Rev 21). But, getting into a debate about whether the Millennium in actually on earth in the future, a literal 1000 years, or something else, is sort of a massive undertaking, and I'm totally not up for that just at the moment!
But as much as I think scripture doesn't point to a literal, future, 1000 year millennium, I'm really not going to be cut up if I'm wrong. 1000 years with Jesus ruling? Darn, I'm sure I'll hate that!

If you study the OT prophets more, you'll discover where God made that promise to them, and to David, and to Jerusalem, that He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem (1 Kings 11), and how He would scatter them for their abominations (Deut.4), but not make them lose their heritage like He did with the ten tribes (Hosea).

So...are you implying that that one tribe, remaining in Israel would then fulfill Romans 9-11? That may very well be the case, but given the fact that so many more Jews (whatever their 'tribe') have returned to the land, doesn't that suggest that God is planning something more wonderful? Something that, justly, will bring more glory to himself?

If the Jews today are so hated, then why do they have groups like the Anti-Defamation League that intentiionally works against Christianity?

If Christians Fail, America Will Fail'

"The Jewish people have the Anti-Defamation League, and you have started an "anti-defamation league" for Christians. Why?

The Anti-Defamation League has come up before. It was started more than a hundred years ago to respond to anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, it's changed over time. It's one of many "mainline" organizations that basically have been taken over by liberals. And today, rather than fighting anti-Semitism, per se, a lot of what it does has nothing to do with combating anti-Semitism, but rather promoting the Left's agenda."

ADL smears against the Christian Right:
The ADL: More about the "monitors"

Well, I completely agree. It's very much like feminism. What may have started off with just roots, has turned into something unrecognizable and stinky. And, when it comes down to it, doesn't matter if they are Jews...they will still need to come to Christ. If they cling to their liberal views and deny him, they won't be saved.

Like others have said here, WHICH Jews is one speaking about, the original Jews of the house of Judah, or the contemporary converted Jews, which are a majority in the state of Israel today?

Obviously, the fact that those above Jews would start an "anti-defamation league for Christians" points more towards the original Jews of the house of Judah.

Well, as stated above, and in my other post...I don't think it really matters what 'sort' of Jew they are. If they even know what tribe they belong to, or any of that. Only God will know their blood or their hearts, and truly know his intentions for each of them. All I'm going on is the facts I see on the ground (the incredible events that have led so many of them home to a thriving land), and what I read in scripture (Romans 9-11). Everything else is just speculation and wonder. I think all we can do is watch, hope, pray and be amazed at God's hand in the world.

 

[Davy]

Well...I think one could make an argument that Ezekiel 40-47 is talking about 'the age to come'...once the 'new Jerusalem' has come down (which would include a new Temple) from heaven (Rev 21). But, getting into a debate about whether the Millennium in actually on earth in the future, a literal 1000 years, or something else, is sort of a massive undertaking, and I'm totally not up for that just at the moment!
But as much as I think scripture doesn't point to a literal, future, 1000 year millennium, I'm really not going to be cut up if I'm wrong. 1000 years with Jesus ruling? Darn, I'm sure I'll hate that!

Why would you hate Jesus ruling a thousand years over the nations, including the unsaved, in that future time? Those who overcome remaining faithful to Him are to reign with Him for that thousand years like Rev.20 shows.

So...are you implying that that one tribe, remaining in Israel would then fulfill Romans 9-11? That may very well be the case, but given the fact that so many more Jews (whatever their 'tribe') have returned to the land, doesn't that suggest that God is planning something more wonderful? Something that, justly, will bring more glory to himself?

What part of Romans 9 thru 11 specifically? In 1 Kings 11, the chapter where God first split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, He promised there would always be one tribe at Jerusalem for David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which is where God chose for to dwell forever. Solomon's son Rehoboam became king over the "kingdom of Judah" or "house of Judah", with its capital remaining at Jerusalem. Judah would wind up including the tribes of Benjamin and Levi, and some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's golden calf idol worship. God later scattered most of the "house of Judah" with the 70 years Babylon captivity, as only a small remnant returned to Judea. The majority of them were scattered again by the Romans in 70 A.D., yet there has always been a remnant there.

Some Jewish scholars believe the ten tribes are lost forever. And then other Jewish scholars hold literally what is written in God's Word, that God is going to gather all the ten tribes where they are scattered, like grain through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground (Amos 9:9). Because God caused the majority of the ten northern tribes to lose their heritage as part of Israel, that points to a gathering of a much larger population than even today's state of Israel could house. And actually the number of Jews in the world still involve the majority of them living outside the state of Israel. Many of those are Christians.

Well, I completely agree. It's very much like feminism. What may have started off with just roots, has turned into something unrecognizable and stinky. And, when it comes down to it, doesn't matter if they are Jews...they will still need to come to Christ. If they cling to their liberal views and deny him, they won't be saved.

As regards their salvation, right, they still have to believe on The Father through Jesus Christ as we have, regardless whether they are descendents of the Sephardic Jews, or the Ashkenazi Jews. It's also important to remember that many of Edom (of Esau) became Jews also back in history, as did the leftovers of the nations of Canaan which Israel was not able to destroy. I'm sure some of them today can still prove their heritage back to old Israel, but not that many really.

Well, as stated above, and in my other post...I don't think it really matters what 'sort' of Jew they are. If they even know what tribe they belong to, or any of that. Only God will know their blood or their hearts, and truly know his intentions for each of them. All I'm going on is the facts I see on the ground (the incredible events that have led so many of them home to a thriving land), and what I read in scripture (Romans 9-11). Everything else is just speculation and wonder. I think all we can do is watch, hope, pray and be amazed at God's hand in the world.

Yes, no difference between Jew or Gentile under Christ's Salvation. We are all one body in Jesus Christ.

Now, to the dangerous part about today's state of Israel:

Already, the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem (yes, it's started up again), has been saying how Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel has moved them another step closer to building the 3rd temple and starting up the old covenant worship again. The Jews are inviting the sons of Ishmael (Arab peoples) to join in that and be a part of it.

Sanhedrin Calls on Arabs to Take Their Role in Third Temple as Prophesized by Isaiah


Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about those things in Jerusalem for the very end of this world, and the coming of the Antichrist to reign in Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" event Jesus foretold from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple in Jerusalem for the purpose of idol worship. That event is to occur in the middle of a seven years pact, or "league", when that coming false one will end old covenant sacrifices and instead place that idol (Dan.11). A standing Jewish temple is necessary for that to occur, showing the Jews in Israel today will one day in our near future be successful in building that 3rd temple in Jerusalem.

Christians are not to partake in those things. We instead are to wait on our Lord Jesus's return.

 

[Naomi25]

Why would you hate Jesus ruling a thousand years over the nations, including the unsaved, in that future time? Those who overcome remaining faithful to Him are to reign with Him for that thousand years like Rev.20 shows.

Um. That was sarcasm. As in...I won't hate it. When it comes down to it, once Jesus is here, he could dress me like a duck and I wouldn't care, as long as he's here. I certainly won't care if he's here and my calendar is looking dicey.

What part of Romans 9 thru 11 specifically? In 1 Kings 11, the chapter where God first split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, He promised there would always be one tribe at Jerusalem for David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which is where God chose for to dwell forever. Solomon's son Rehoboam became king over the "kingdom of Judah" or "house of Judah", with its capital remaining at Jerusalem. Judah would wind up including the tribes of Benjamin and Levi, and some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's golden calf idol worship. God later scattered most of the "house of Judah" with the 70 years Babylon captivity, as only a small remnant returned to Judea. The majority of them were scattered again by the Romans in 70 A.D., yet there has always been a remnant there.

Some Jewish scholars believe the ten tribes are lost forever. And then other Jewish scholars hold literally what is written in God's Word, that God is going to gather all the ten tribes where they are scattered, like grain through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground (Amos 9:9). Because God caused the majority of the ten northern tribes to lose their heritage as part of Israel, that points to a gathering of a much larger population than even today's state of Israel could house. And actually the number of Jews in the world still involve the majority of them living outside the state of Israel. Many of those are Christians.

Well, I'm not sure, mostly because I was asking you if what you said would fit what Romans 9-11 says...so you see my problem...or maybe you don't, in which case we won't get far!
Here's what I see that passage as saying: God is not done with national Israel. He has a future plan for them and will, at some point in the future, bring large numbers of them, to belief in Christ as their Messiah.
I know that a lot of people, especially those who hold to the dispensational school of thought, think that this is a foregone conclusion based on OT verses and promises...and I won't argue that with you at this time.
As far as the tribes, and the number still spread among the nations...does it matter? Are we needing these details to matter? Because in the end our knowing who is who and where they reside won't mean a thing. On the other hand, the fact that the land of Israel is now, overwhelmingly, back in Jewish hands, and is prospering and blooming after only 70 years....that's a sign to the whole world, don't you think?

As regards their salvation, right, they still have to believe on The Father through Jesus Christ as we have, regardless whether they are descendents of the Sephardic Jews, or the Ashkenazi Jews. It's also important to remember that many of Edom (of Esau) became Jews also back in history, as did the leftovers of the nations of Canaan which Israel was not able to destroy. I'm sure some of them today can still prove their heritage back to old Israel, but not that many really.

Yes, no difference between Jew or Gentile under Christ's Salvation. We are all one body in Jesus Christ.

Now, to the dangerous part about today's state of Israel:

Already, the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem (yes, it's started up again), has been saying how Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel has moved them another step closer to building the 3rd temple and starting up the old covenant worship again. The Jews are inviting the sons of Ishmael (Arab peoples) to join in that and be a part of it.

Sanhedrin Calls on Arabs to Take Their Role in Third Temple as Prophesized by Isaiah


Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about those things in Jerusalem for the very end of this world, and the coming of the Antichrist to reign in Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" event Jesus foretold from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple in Jerusalem for the purpose of idol worship. That event is to occur in the middle of a seven years pact, or "league", when that coming false one will end old covenant sacrifices and instead place that idol (Dan.11). A standing Jewish temple is necessary for that to occur, showing the Jews in Israel today will one day in our near future be successful in building that 3rd temple in Jerusalem.

Christians are not to partake in those things. We instead are to wait on our Lord Jesus's return.

Yeah, the whole 3rd temple thing is pretty messed up. I'm happy, like you, to be waiting on something else!

 

[Davy]

Um. That was sarcasm. As in...I won't hate it. When it comes down to it, once Jesus is here, he could dress me like a duck and I wouldn't care, as long as he's here. I certainly won't care if he's here and my calendar is looking dicey.

OK.

Well, I'm not sure, mostly because I was asking you if what you said would fit what Romans 9-11 says...so you see my problem...or maybe you don't, in which case we won't get far!
Here's what I see that passage as saying: God is not done with national Israel. He has a future plan for them and will, at some point in the future, bring large numbers of them, to belief in Christ as their Messiah.
I know that a lot of people, especially those who hold to the dispensational school of thought, think that this is a foregone conclusion based on OT verses and promises...and I won't argue that with you at this time.
As far as the tribes, and the number still spread among the nations...does it matter? Are we needing these details to matter? Because in the end our knowing who is who and where they reside won't mean a thing. On the other hand, the fact that the land of Israel is now, overwhelmingly, back in Jewish hands, and is prospering and blooming after only 70 years....that's a sign to the whole world, don't you think?

So you know, I don't heed Dispensationalism, nor a pre-trib rapture.

I agree that God is not finished with national Israel, nor the scattered "house of Judah" that still resides in the nations. That specifically was Paul's Message in the Romans 11:25-32 verses. Until the fulness of the Gentiles is when God is going to save them, meaning those of them that will believe once God removes their blinders He put upon them. In Isaiah 28 & 29 we were shown how God has put blindness upon Israel in part all the way back then. That is where Paul is referring to in Rom.11:8.

As for God gathering the ten tribed "house of Israel", yes, that does matter, because God said He would do it...

Amos 9:9-11
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, 'The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.'
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
KJV

And their number, though we don't know a specific number, is important too because it fulfills prophecy that Jacob's seed would become as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, and especially "a company of nations" (Gen.35). In Genesis 49, Jacob is giving messages of prophecy to each of his twelve sons for the end of this world. That means all 12 tribes of Israel exist all the way to the second coming of Christ Jesus. In Ezekiel 39, God remarks how when He ends this world, the whole world will then know about the ten tribed "house of Israel" and what happened to them, and they themselves will then know they (thier ancestors) had been scattered and lost their heritage (like Hosea 1 showed would happen). In other words, the ten lost tribes are going to wake up as to who they really are, i.e., not Gentiles at all, but only scattered among the Gentiles.

Another reason why knowing about those Scriptures concerning the ten tribes is important is because they actually made up the majority of the peoples of the old nation of Israel. The house of Judah involved 3 tribes while the house of Israel involved 10 tribes. God scattered the 10 tribes out of the holy land first to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. The house of Judah remained in the holy land, and only around 120 years later would go into their own captivity to Babylon for 70 years with a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem. And the remnant of Judah that returned to Jerusalem was a very small number compared to the total number of Israelites prior to their scattering.

Likewise today, the number of Jews there in the state of Israel is still a very small number compared to the number of total 12 tribe Israelites in the world. So the renewed state of Israel does not signify Jesus' Salvation, definitely not that, because before our Lord Jesus will return, the Antichrist or pseudo-Christ must first appear in Jerusalem for the end of this world, and proclaim himself as God (2 Thess.2; Matt.24:23-26).

 

[Ac28]

OK.



So you know, I don't heed Dispensationalism, nor a pre-trib rapture.

I agree that God is not finished with national Israel, nor the scattered "house of Judah" that still resides in the nations. That specifically was Paul's Message in the Romans 11:25-32 verses. Until the fulness of the Gentiles is when God is going to save them, meaning those of them that will believe once God removes their blinders He put upon them. In Isaiah 28 & 29 we were shown how God has put blindness upon Israel in part all the way back then. That is where Paul is referring to in Rom.11:8.

As for God gathering the ten tribed "house of Israel", yes, that does matter, because God said He would do it...

Amos 9:9-11
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, 'The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.'
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
KJV

And their number, though we don't know a specific number, is important too because it fulfills prophecy that Jacob's seed would become as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, and especially "a company of nations" (Gen.35). In Genesis 49, Jacob is giving messages of prophecy to each of his twelve sons for the end of this world. That means all 12 tribes of Israel exist all the way to the second coming of Christ Jesus. In Ezekiel 39, God remarks how when He ends this world, the whole world will then know about the ten tribed "house of Israel" and what happened to them, and they themselves will then know they (thier ancestors) had been scattered and lost their heritage (like Hosea 1 showed would happen). In other words, the ten lost tribes are going to wake up as to who they really are, i.e., not Gentiles at all, but only scattered among the Gentiles.

Another reason why knowing about those Scriptures concerning the ten tribes is important is because they actually made up the majority of the peoples of the old nation of Israel. The house of Judah involved 3 tribes while the house of Israel involved 10 tribes. God scattered the 10 tribes out of the holy land first to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. The house of Judah remained in the holy land, and only around 120 years later would go into their own captivity to Babylon for 70 years with a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem. And the remnant of Judah that returned to Jerusalem was a very small number compared to the total number of Israelites prior to their scattering.

Likewise today, the number of Jews there in the state of Israel is still a very small number compared to the number of total 12 tribe Israelites in the world. So the renewed state of Israel does not signify Jesus' Salvation, definitely not that, because before our Lord Jesus will return, the Antichrist or pseudo-Christ must first appear in Jerusalem for the end of this world, and proclaim himself as God (2 Thess.2; Matt.24:23-26).

After going though the denominational church wilderness of truth, I have been an Ac28 dispensationalist for 30 years. Unlike the denominational system, which always keeps you in a doctrinal box, Ac28 dispensationalism is very literal and very open-ended. It's main tenant is that Paul is the only apostle to the Gentiles and, therefore, Paul is the last word on Gentile doctrine. That is quite obvious if you believe your Bible. The 2nd tenant is right division.

No Bible Believer can do without 2Tim 2:15, rightly dividing God's Word. Without it, you will be combining Israel's doctrine with Gentile doctrine and will end up with a confusing, contradictory mess. Since you're a Gentile, you must rightly divide and cut or chop out all of that stuff belonging to Israel, like water baptism, the Lord's supper, the Gifts of the Spirit, the Lord's prayer, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Rapture, the Acts church, and on and on. If you think all this is for you, you're a victim of the denominational system, where about 50% of the doctrine is composed of non-Gentile doctrine stolen from Israel, not stolen intentionally, just stolen from ignorance, follow the leader, and the fact that denominational preachers are compelled to teach the doctrine of their denomination or lose their job. The only way you'll ever learn Biblical truth is to get out of the denominational system.

On the internet, in many places. it says that there are 34,000 denominations in the word - some say 40,000. That seems high, but if you define a denomination as any group or spin-off with a different interpretation of at least a portion of the scriptures, I guess that number might be true. God is not a liar and He is not the author of confusion. Therefore, concerning scripture, for any specific question we could think up, there is only one right answer. Therefore, the odds that any of us have the absolute truth is slim to none. You'll never find truth in a denominational church because all of them are locked into a small doctrinal box. If you look outside that box, you are judged a heretic. For example, how long would you last in a Baptist Church if you believed the truth that water baptism was only for Israel? Your only hope is to do it on your own, obeying rules in the Bible that guide you into truth, like right division or trying (testing) the things that differ in Phil 1:10 (see margin).

The Kingdom of God is among you. In fact, He, the King, is sitting right here with you men of Israel, the only people to whom the K of G applies. It certainly has nothing to do with us saved Gentiles. Remember that Christ was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel for His brief 3.5 years earthly ministry, Mt 15:24.

I'm beginning to believe that the Kingdom of God will occur next in God's schedule. This will last maybe 600-700 years and will be the time of peace discussed by most all the prophets. The lion will lay down with the lamb. The seas will evaporate to form a canopy like in the past Eden. The mountains will lower and the land will raise. The climate on the whole earth will be moderate and will all be the same. Christ will rule from the heavens. People will no longer be subject to death because of Adam's sins, but because of their own sins. At the end, there will be rebellion. Then, Daniel's 70th week. Then, the Millennium will start, when Christ rules on the earth with an iron fist. I'm just starting to study this this, so what I've written is about all I know. I can't answer any questions about it because, I know very little about. The scripture I've seen so far seems to back what I've said.

God Bless All of You

 

[Davy]

After going though the denominational church wilderness of truth, I have been an Ac28 dispensationalist for 30 years. Unlike the denominational system, which always keeps you in a doctrinal box, Ac28 dispensationalism is very literal and very open-ended. It's main tenant is that Paul is the only apostle to the Gentiles and, therefore, Paul is the last word on Gentile doctrine. That is quite obvious if you believe your Bible. The 2nd tenant is right division.

I don't hold to doctrines of men, of which that idea is. Paul indeed was sent specifically to preach to the Gentiles, but that did not mean to only apply his Epistles to Gentiles, because Paul often quoted directly from the Old Testament prophets, and Jesus, when preaching The Gospel to Gentiles, as written in his Epistles. By doing that Paul made the WHOLE Bible relevant to ALL believers on Christ Jesus.

That means we Gentiles who have believed cannot just 'pick n' choose' what parts of God's Holy Writ we want to apply to us simply because of Paul's commission. This should be all the more obvious when we read Paul's teaching that all those of Faith have become the children of Abraham, per Galatians 3. As Paul shows there, The Gospel was also preached to Abraham, and David was given to prophecy of Christ's crucifixion a thousand years before it happened, as Isaiah did also in Isaiah 53.

No Bible Believer can do without 2Tim 2:15, rightly dividing God's Word. Without it, you will be combining Israel's doctrine with Gentile doctrine and will end up with a confusing, contradictory mess. Since you're a Gentile, you must rightly divide and cut or chop out all of that stuff belonging to Israel, like water baptism, the Lord's supper, the Gifts of the Spirit, the Lord's prayer, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Rapture, the Acts church, and on and on. If you think all this is for you, you're a victim of the denominational system, where about 50% of the doctrine is composed of non-Gentile doctrine stolen from Israel, not stolen intentionally, just stolen from ignorance, follow the leader, and the fact that denominational preachers are compelled to teach the doctrine of their denomination or lose their job. The only way you'll ever learn Biblical truth is to get out of the denominational system.

In Christ's Church, both believing Israelite and believing Gentile are joined as one body in Christ Jesus. That is what Paul taught. But did that mean God's promises to the seed of Israel ended with Christ's Church and the inclusion of Gentiles? Of course not. I'm sure some Gentile brethren would love nothing better than to have their own separated Church unto themselves, but that is just not going to happen, nor is it written anywhere in God's Holy Writ. In Ephesians 2, Paul showed that believing Gentiles through Faith on Jesus have come INTO God's covenants and promises to Israel.

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

You see, not Jesus, nor Paul, ended God's Promises to His elect of Israel when The Gospel was sent to the Gentiles. Instead, God's Promises to Israel are all the more in effect, because only under Christ Jesus have those Promises been manifested since the majority of the Jews rejected our Lord Jesus. One of the stupors upon today's Church is in thinking that only the unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel are God's Israel of prophecy, when Jesus rebuked them for rejecting Him as Messiah, and also when they rejected Paul's preaching to them in Acts 28. This error in thinking that the Israel in the middleast signifies connection with Christ's Kingdom in the world to come will be corrected when Jesus returns there, and establishes HIS Kingdom there instead.

On the internet, in many places. it says that there are 34,000 denominations in the word - some say 40,000. That seems high, but if you define a denomination as any group or spin-off with a different interpretation of at least a portion of the scriptures, I guess that number might be true. God is not a liar and He is not the author of confusion. Therefore, concerning scripture, for any specific question we could think up, there is only one right answer. Therefore, the odds that any of us have the absolute truth is slim to none. You'll never find truth in a denominational church because all of them are locked into a small doctrinal box. If you look outside that box, you are judged a heretic. For example, how long would you last in a Baptist Church if you believed the truth that water baptism was only for Israel? Your only hope is to do it on your own, obeying rules in the Bible that guide you into truth, like right division or trying (testing) the things that differ in Phil 1:10 (see margin).

I don't do denominations, and I also believe there is one correct interpretation with God's Holy Writ. But I don't think most of His Word is that hard to understand, if one has truly believed, asked Him for understanding, and He gives The Holy Spirit as our Guide. Then it's up to us to get down and discipline ourselves in it. Lack of self-discipline in study of God's Holy Writ I think is the biggest problem among brethren, because it leads to wanting to listen to and believe what someone else preaches just based on a credential some group of men in a far city supplied. Jesus warned us about the hireling (John 10).

Well, it is with us through Faith on Jesus Christ, but God's Kingdom in the physical is not actually manifested here on earth yet. It will be after Jesus reigns with His elect for a 1,000 years over the nations (per Rev.20 and 1 Cor.15), and then delivers up the kingdom to The Father.

Yes, Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which was meant in the sense that lost Israel among the Gentiles would believe The Gospel along with the Gentiles, and they would become one body (Christ's Church). That was history, as its manifested result was the western Christian nations of history. It was Bible prophecy too, which many Jews apparently hate, because Jacob was prophesied to become not just one nation, but also "a company of nations", and Joseph's son Ephraim was prophesied to become "a multitude of nations":

Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
KJV

Whoah! How is it that Jacob's seed was to also become "a company of nations"? And that verse 10 shows those would be Israelite nations!

Gen 48:16-19
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
KJV

Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations"? YES.

A multitude of Israelite nations, meaning the "house of Israel" that God scattered among the Gentiles, and when Christ was preached to them, and the majority of them believed, they would become the western Christian nations!

The unbelieving Jews may hate that, but in final everyone is going to know this Truth from God's Word and how it was written all along, and that God kept His Promises to His people, even while they (lost Israel) were in rebellion against Him.

The event of the lamb lay down with the lion, eating straw, from the prophet Isaiah, is for after Christ's 1,000 years reign. It's the time of God's new heavens and a new earth, with Satan and the wicked gone.

You're moving events for the future new heavens and new earth back in time where it does not belong. Thus you have not been rightly dividing like Paul said do.

 

[Ac28]

Davy, I exceeded 10,000 characters, so I eliminated the quote.

Israel will become a blessing to the nations when the resurrected 12 apostles go about accomplishing the Great Commission, given solely to them (see Mt 28:16-20) , of which there is no record of ever being started. This is another one of those Jewish things that Today's church has stolen.

Christ's ministry had one purpose, to convert Israel, as a nation, to accept Christ as the promised Messiah, so that Israel's promised Kingdom of Heaven would start. It certainly wasn't to start a Church. He did talk to a couple of Gentiles but He didn't teach the Gospel of the Kingdom to them. None of the rules or directions given to Israel, only, during Christ's ministry apply to us Gentiles.

From Gen 12 through Acts 9, only Israel were in view and the only Gentiles that received any blessings were proselytes. The 1st and only Gentile to be ministered to by any of the 12 and the 1st Gentile to be involved with the so-called church during Acts was Cornelius, by Peter, in Acts 10. This was 7 or 8 years after Acts 2, in the upper room, where there were no Gentiles, not one. The gifts were a sample of the New Covenant, which belonged only to Israel, according to scripture. They were given during Acts for the sole purpose of witnessing to Israel, who required signs and wonders. The entire purpose of the Acts period was the same as Christ's ministry, to convert Israel. In Mt 23:39 and other places, Christ said He would not return until Israel accepted Him. This was well understood by the 12 - see Acts 3:19-21. All this still holds true and that's why Christ has not yet returned. Had Israel accepted Christ in the Gospels or Acts, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 300 years old.

The Gospel of the Kingdom, the same gospel that Christ taught, which was not a gospel of salvation, like Paul's, was preached during the entirety of Acts, to the nation Israel, by the 12 and by Paul. Paul always went to the Jews first and that's what he preached to them. Those Jews that believed were born again. Sometimes, with Jews that had already believed and were born again, and with all Gentiles, he would preach his gospel of salvation, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those that believed made up the church. The ONLY purpose of Gentiles being involved at all was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so they might believe in Christ. During Acts, Israel had all the privileges, Rom 9:4, "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" If Israel had all these things, that means the Gentiles had none of them. Not having the service of God meant that the Gentiles couldn't teach or preach. The Gentiles that were saved were grafted into Israel, the good olive tree - they were part of Israel. That meant that the Acts period was, in essence, all Israel.

Scripture says that Paul continually received special revelations from God, starting at the Damascus Road, telling him what to do and how to do it. God obviously told Paul, at the end of Acts, to set Israel aside, because of their unbelief. In Acts 28:26-27, he pronounced the curse of Isa 6:9-10 on Israel to the Pharisees he had been preaching to all day and, in vs 28, the salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. At that point, Israel ceased being a separate nation, ceased being God's chosen people, and everything associated with Israel ceased to exist - the gifts, the rapture, prophecy being fulfilled, the church, etc. Also, Paul's 1st 7 books, Rom, Gal, Cor, Thess, Heb, which were written to saved Jews and saved grafted in Gentiles, ceased to be up-to-date and important to us today. When the temple was destroyed, 7 or 8 years later, Israel's being set aside was finalized and Israel's state of non-existence has now existed for nearly 2000 years. To get saved, the fake Talmudic Jews in Israel today must believe in Paul's Gospel of Salvation just like we do.

After ac28, Paul, still in prison, wrote 7 new epistles, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. The truth in these books had been hidden in God since the world began, unlike the Acts church, which had been hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. In these new books, Paul introduced a brand new church, The Church that is the Actual Body of Christ, Where Christ is the Head. Mentioned throughout these books is the brand new calling, where the members will spend eternity far above all heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. We, in this church,who have the eyes to see this calling, mainly in Eph and Col, are the 1st group in the Bible to ever have a hope of heaven. Search and see. These books are the only books in the Bible that are written directly TO us today. They are the only letters with our name on the envelope. The marriage of the Lamb will consist of Christ and us, His Body, which make up the bridegroom, and the Acts Church, the occupants of the New Jerusalem, the city that comes down out of Heaven and docks on the New earth. In Revelation, the NJ and, by association, its occupants, is called the Bride. We now live in the only period of pure grace in the Bible.

The Word must be more difficult than you think, since little in your post resembled the truth, as the scriptures define it. I know you're not rightly dividing God's Word between Israel and Gentiles, and it's impossible for you to ever have any thorough understanding of the Bible without doing so. Right division is really a big deal.The only people that attempt to obey the principal of right division are the dispensatinalists. If you don't rightly divide, you're not approved unto God, according to 2Tim 2:15.

Maybe the greatest enemies of Bible truth are assumptions, which the denominations, and especially, the Catholic Church. are masters at. When something is given to Israel or a particular group of people, like the 12 (Great Commission, e.g.), you can never assume it's also for you, unless your only apostle, Paul, says it's for you in his last 7 epistles, written after Acts 28:28. To not obey this is to pervert the scriptures.

I spent many years searching for a totally unbiased bible scholar whose only goal was to discover what was bible truth. They're rarer than you think. Along with him, I discovered the only interpretation system that always discovered the truth of the matter, Acts 28 dispensationalism. Mid-Acts dispensationalism is the 2nd best system for discovering truth but it's way behind Ac28, since it artificially believes that the church in Acts is progressive and merges into the post-Acts church - the truth is that the church in Acts is the same when it started as it is at the end of Acts. The milkiest, weakest form of dispensationalism is Acts 2, the more famous form popularized by Darby, Scofield, Larkin, etc.

Acts 28 is an abrupt change in what the fake denominational system teaches.. The other 2 forms are dead wrong, but not that abrupt and are therefore more accepted. However, you will learn more in any dispensational system than you will in any non-dispensational system, probably because only the 3 dispensational systems rightly divide. In fact, I would define dispensationalism as a system that correctly obeys God's Word and rightly divides the Word of God as directed by 2Tim 2:15.

In scripture, the actual change in the church is super abrupt. One second before Acts 28:28 is uttered, the Gentiles are second class members of a Jewish church with a hope of the Jewish NJ. One second after Ac28:28. the Gentiles are members of the most glorious Church in history with the unique hope of Heaven.

 

[Naomi25]

On the internet, in many places. it says that there are 34,000 denominations in the word - some say 40,000. That seems high, but if you define a denomination as any group or spin-off with a different interpretation of at least a portion of the scriptures, I guess that number might be true. God is not a liar and He is not the author of confusion. Therefore, concerning scripture, for any specific question we could think up, there is only one right answer. Therefore, the odds that any of us have the absolute truth is slim to none. You'll never find truth in a denominational church because all of them are locked into a small doctrinal box. If you look outside that box, you are judged a heretic.

Um...by your own definition, "Ac28" would also be a "denomination". Welcome friend!!!