23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!
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We are looking at recaps. Your whole doctrine is based upon Rev 20 coming after Rev 19 in time. When that has been debunked your doctrine falls apart like a deck of cards. You have nothing.
I hate to burst your bubble, but, the old covenant is gone forever, never to return. With the first advent of Christ, God introduced a new religious arrangement that changed the format of God’s engagement with man, and also enlarged the geographical range of His grace. Israel lost its exclusive privileged place under the new economy. The theocratic system was dismantled. The old covenant ceremonial system was replaced with a better, stronger, broader, more glorious and longer-lasting covenant. Under the new covenant there was absolutely no difference placed between Jews and Gentiles. Both enjoy equal status through faith in Christ. The New Testament expanded the Gospel thrust to embrace all nations. The new covenant knew no ethnic, political or religious boundaries. It was a global trans-national scheme that targeted a fallen world.
A lot of Christians today overlook this reality because they have a bias and faulty perspective of natural Israel. They make the mistake of viewing physical Israel today through Old Testament glasses. They fail to see that the Old Testament dispensation has gone forever and the New Testament era has fully and wholly superseded it. The old system has been totally dismantled and abolished because it was only ever intended to be a temporary covenant with an expiration date. Its conclusion occurred when Christ died on the cross. We see that with the ripping of the curtain in the temple at the very moment Jesus breathed His last breath (Matthew 27:50-51, Mark 15:37-38 and Luke 23:45-46). It therefore has no further purpose for time and eternity.
Ignorance of New Testament truth leads many to a distorted and erroneous understanding of Old Testament truth. Ironically, and paradoxically, especially allowing for how they describe themselves, many Futurists choose to live in the past. They understand ethnic Israel today in an old covenant sense, rather than a new covenant context. It is as if the old covenant is still active and valid and the new covenant has yet to arrive. Futurists seem unable (or unwilling) to recognize the seismic shift that occurred through the introduction of the new covenant. When pressed, they continually run back to the Old Testament for some type of support for a favored place for national Israel, a return of the Jews to their ancient land boundaries, the reintroduction of the old covenant apparatus, including a rebuilt physical temple, animal blood sacrifices, and a restored Old Testament priesthood. They have to pitch their tent in the Hebrew Scriptures because they have absolutely no endorsement in the New Testament for their theological model.
Sensible and enlightened Bible scholars place greater emphasis on the New Testament because it is the fuller revelation and it is where we now reside. God’s truth has been a gradual progressive unfolding and unveiling of truth to mankind from the beginning. The change and advancement that came with the New Testament era did not jettison the old Hebrew promises but rather fulfilled them. The doctrinal light became a lot clearer with Christ’s appearance and vivid illumination of the whole dynamic between the Old and the New Testament and the first and second advents. Our Lord removed the existing vail, dispelled the religious mist and has shed much-needed light on God’s redemptive plan.
Timtofly
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Pre-mill is not solely based on Chronology. But if you remove the human opinion of recap, Amil will fall, because this first resurrection cannot happen after the Second Coming nor at the start of a Millennium Kingdom, or Amil would be contradictory. Amil does contradict Scripture. Thus a false doctrine, based on human opinion. Revelation does not need recap to make sense. Amil needs recap to be plausible, and avoid contradiction.
This sounds good, so why deny the clear NT teaching of a 1,000 year period after the Second Coming? You contradict this point, with the word Amil.
You base your whole doctrine on one chapter located in the most obscure setting in Scripture. What is more, you have no other corroboration for what you impose on Rev 20.
Keraz
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This comment is about the dumbest and most belittling of Bible truths seen yet!
You cannot push ANY scripture into obscurity because it suits you.
I and many others have posted corroboration for the future Millennium. You either wilfully ignore it or you are simply incapable of understanding Bible truths that destroy the AMill theory.
Actually, your being made incapable because of belief in false theories, is the most probable. As Jesus said: Father, You hide these things from the wise and learned..... Matthew 11:25
jeffweeder
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I think it is most important we all corroborate bible truths with the NT. It shouldn't be a struggle to convincingly do that.
Not so. You have nothing to corroborate this imaginary period. It only exist in your head. It will never happen.
By the way: is Jesus God? You are so uncomfortable answering this.
jeffweeder
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I think he might know that the answer he gives will be very uncomfortable to a lot of us.
If only he had the same conviction he has regarding other things.
That only means one thing =there is Hope.
Keraz
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Amos 9:13-15 The time is surely coming, says the Lord, when the one who plows shall overtake the one who reaps, and the treader of grapes, the one who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, all the hills shall flow with it. I will restore the fortunes of My people, Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them upon their Land and they shall never again be plucked up out of the Land I have given them.
That scripture promises restoration for a devastated land and a scattered people and it does so in a beautiful description of overflowing fertility in field and vineyard along with an unqualified pledge of “never again” for His faithful Christian peoples, from every tribe, race nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, to be dispossessed. Psalms 37:29
Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.
This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.
Daniel 7:27 The Kingly power, sovereignty and greatness of all the Kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their Kingly power will last for ever and every realm will serve and obey them.
So, how will the God of justice and righteousness treat the Gentiles in establishing this utopian Kingdom on earth?
Micah 4:1-2 In days to come, the Lords House will tower above the hills. The nations will stream toward it, saying; Let us go to the House of Jacob’s God, that He may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion. [and in Isaiah 2:2-4]
Zechariah 8:20 Nations and dwellers in many cities will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. Zechariah 14:16-21
Those warlike and idol worshipping peoples will be converted to godly worship, under a God of justice and peace. They will not become Israelites, but all will live together under God. This will be the situation after Jesus Returns, during His Millennium rule.
That scripture promises restoration for a devastated land and a scattered people and it does so in a beautiful description of overflowing fertility in field and vineyard along with an unqualified pledge of “never again” for His faithful Christian peoples, from every tribe, race nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, to be dispossessed. Psalms 37:29
Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.
This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.
Daniel 7:27 The Kingly power, sovereignty and greatness of all the Kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their Kingly power will last for ever and every realm will serve and obey them.
So, how will the God of justice and righteousness treat the Gentiles in establishing this utopian Kingdom on earth?
Micah 4:1-2 In days to come, the Lords House will tower above the hills. The nations will stream toward it, saying; Let us go to the House of Jacob’s God, that He may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion. [and in Isaiah 2:2-4]
Zechariah 8:20 Nations and dwellers in many cities will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. Zechariah 14:16-21
Those warlike and idol worshipping peoples will be converted to godly worship, under a God of justice and peace. They will not become Israelites, but all will live together under God. This will be the situation after Jesus Returns, during His Millennium rule.
Exactly! It seems we are facing some serious deep-seated underlying heresy within the Premil camp on these forums.
Timtofly
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And you base your argument against pre-mill on your own personal opinion.
Revelation 20 comes chronologically after 19, and you cannot change that fact.
Paul pointed out an order in 1 Corinthians 15, and you blatantly deny Paul's Order as given. The Second Coming is between the Cross and the end, and there has been and will be time between these 3 different points of Paul's order.
Amils have debunked your claims numerous times. You have no answer to it. Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”
Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.
The Greek simply reads:
Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end
The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.
The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.
The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.
The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.
Keraz
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With this sort of comment, I have to think that AMill believers have no proof for their claims.
When Jesus Returns, He has the Name of King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 19:16
If AMill's believe Jesus has been the King of Kings before His Return and all thru this age of nearly 2000 years, then provide proof of that incredible claim.
Jesus did say He would be with us Spiritually until the end of the age, Matthew 28:20, as our mentor and helper; NOT as the Ruler of the world.
When you have such a blatant disregard for the biblical narrative any type of error works. I and others have presented multiple Scriptures that refute your rejection of Christ's kingship, His rule, His power and His glory. Your fight is with the Book. You explain away the rest of Scripture with your faulty opinion of Rev 20. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 forbids Premil. Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:20-23, Hebrews 2:6-11, Revelation 3:7, Philippians 2:9-11, Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15, 1 Peter 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14 which you ignore forbids Premil.
Ephesians 1:17-23: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness (megethos or magnificence) of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
The resurrection is constantly presented in Scripture as the moment Christ secured all power and authority over all creation, including His enemies. It is at the place of majesty that He now reigns in unchallenged power and glory.
Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven's power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords. Hebrews 1:1-3 confirms: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty (megalosune) on high."
The word “Majesty” is interpreted from the Greek word megalosune, meaning greatness, i.e. (figuratively) divinity (often God himself). It speaks of glory, mighty power, magnificence and splendour. The phrase “being the brightness of his glory” literally reads “He is the radiance of his glory.”
Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.
Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”
He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.
Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."
This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.
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Keraz
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Will somebody tell this to Putin? To Irans crazy mullahs? To all the people who abuse their positions of power now and in the past>
But I realize you cannot now change your beliefs. Only as things happen, will you and all the deceived and confused people finally see and understand the truths of the Prophetic Word. Psalms 94:8, Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:24
I trust Christ will be merciful upon your scoffing. Christ permitting evil does not mean He does not have power to negate it. He uses it for His ultimate glory. After all, He is God, something you refuse to believe.
• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this great battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.
You need to see the enemy for who he is. You need to see demons for who they are. They are just like grasshoppers trying to stop God doing His will. It would be easier to stop Niagara Falls with a lollipop stick than to stop God doing what he wants to do. Our Lord sits in the heavenlies laughing at the schemes of the wicked.
Timtofly
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That is your personal opinionated spin.
There are 3 parts to the order:
The Cross and the OT firstfruits. The entire OT body was presented to God.
The Second Coming. The entire church is glorified and presented to God.
Then comes the end. All creation is presented to God.
If you cannot see the time between the Cross and the Second Coming, you are blind to Paul's order.
You are definitely blind to the time between the Second Coming and the end. If you cannot see the time between the Cross and the Second Coming, how can you call the time between the Second Coming and the end the same length as between the Cross and the Second Coming. It has been 1992 years. There will be a 1,000 year period between the middle presentation and the final presentation. We know both lengths of time so far. They are not equal to each other.
Daniel says:
"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."
Times, time, and half of time will be understood at the end. Not the end of time. The end of the prophecy. John gives us the time as 1,000 years. Twice that is 2,000 years. Half of that is 500 years. There was 500 years between Daniel and the Cross. You all try to force 490 years into 500. 483 fits as easy as 490.
It has been 1992.5 years since the Cross.
That is how we know the time is 1,000. Since the total is 3500 years, and we are almost to 2500 years, there is 1,000 years left in the equation. The Second Coming is not in another 1,000 years as you try to teach, as you claim the 1,000 is also part of the 2,000. Or is the 2,000 with your fuzzy math, as you think the end is soon. You have shrunk Daniel's time down from 3500 to 2500.
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