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Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by MUSTAFAA, Mar 8, 2007.

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  1. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    Trinity Relationship:1. FATHER (GOD)2. JESUS (SON)3. HOLY SPIRITIf true that all three or equal in every way and from the same substance as the church states then this should be true over the entire life of the beings or being. No matter what form the being chooses to take its substance, abilities and attributes would have to stay the same constant without change! If not then we would be able to say that we now have a “lesser” or “greater” being, not equal in knowledge or substance etc… as the original. According to what the church tells us or Gods absolute attributes omnipotent; immutable; everlasting just to name a few, would and should also be true over the life of the being or beings existence. Omnipotence meaning: an omnipotent being is one who can do anything that is logically possible and is consistent with his other attributes.Immutability meaning: That God attributes and essence cannot change; Can someone tell me where the problems or with my thinking...
     
  2. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    The son of God, Jesus is the embodiment of the Father, Jesus said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." The Holy Spirit is the combination of the Father and the Son sent forth.. for without both intities , you cannot have the Holy Spirit....The Ruach Ha Kodest...Holy Sprirt.... is the unseen attirbutes of God that He sends to each of us...It is His living spirit sent to the earth, poured out to each of us who believe...We can do things we could not do, with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the line of communication we have with the Father. He uses the His Spirit to speak to us and the proof of it is in the Word. It was te Holy Spirit that spoke to Daniel and told him the dream of Nebuchanzzer... Before Christ came died and returned to the Father, the Spirit was put ON his people of choice. IE: David, Samson. ect. Now the Spirit is here and available 24/7 to any who ask for it. It lives within us. Christ said in John 5:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing; the words I speak unto you are the spirit, and they are life.Remember in the beginining God spoke and created all things. As then, now the Words that proceed from the mouth of God are the Spirit of Him and now that Jesus has returned to God they combined are ONE. Shema Israel Yahveh Elohanu Yaveh EchadHEAR ISRAEL, GOD IS ALMIGHTY , GOD IS ONE(Echad is the key here Echad means the oneness of many)This prayer is the one said by all Jews as they lay down and rise up, at all meetings and services and more than any other prayer said by them.The study of Genesis in the original language really helps you to understand who we are and who Christ is... If you are really interested in learning the deep things of God's creation of men and their spiritual natures please contact me and I will send you a study.I am not sure that the concept the church is teaching as the 3 having distinctive power and separatness is correct, exactly.I think is is more true that the 3 are all from the same source for without the Father , none would exist. Father is the one whom we look to for everything... AS christ taught us to pray "Our Father who art in Heaven Hallowed be thy name." But It is Christ's power and authority we use on the earth to fight against Satan and his angels." And it is the Holy Spirit that commnunicates all these things to those we are speaking to in the spiritual realm.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    It may help you to understand this concept if you think of the human body we have a physical body that breathes and makes your heart beat without you thinking about it, We have a mind that thinks and makes choices,we have a soul that feels and is who we really are that part of us that is connected to God. So we are made of body, mind and spirit. 3 parts = 1 person. This is not exactly the same as God but a similar example as we are made in his image.
     
  4. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    Shema Israel Yahveh Elohanu Yaveh Echad HEAR ISRAEL, GOD IS ALMIGHTY , GOD IS ONE (Echad is the key here Echad means the oneness of many) This prayer is the one said by all Jews as they lay down and rise up, at all meetings and services and more than any other prayer said by them. The study of Genesis in the original language really helps you to understand who we are and who Christ is... If you are really interested in learning the deep things of God's creation of men and their spiritual natures please contact me and I will send you a study. I am not sure that the concept the church is teaching as the 3 having distinctive power and separatness is correct, exactly.I think is is more true that the 3 are all from the same source for without the Father, none would exist. Father is the one whom we look to for everything... AS christ taught us to pray "Our Father who art in Heaven Hallowed be thy name." But It is Christ's power and authority we use on the earth to fight against Satan and his angels." And it is the Holy Spirit that commnunicates all these things to those we are speaking to in the spiritual realm. Re:Can you tell me the verse in the bible you quote from “hear Israel, God is almighty, God is one”… I totally agree with you that “the Father is the one whom we look to for everything” and that “without the Father none would Exits” (does this include Jesus?) but just to make myself more clear I would think from my limited understanding that the Son(Jesus) and the Father are different and not equal in some unknown way to me. I think I would have to refer to the verse in the bible below… Mt 27:46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I can’t understand why he would cry out to God if he was God, this says to me and correct me if I’m wrong that Jesus knew he was not God and he knew he had a God to help him and he cried out to him. Also I would like to give on more verse for now to show my confusion about the belief that Jesus is God… Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. Jesus Cleary says that God in greater then him, not equal but greater. I can’t understand how he could make such a statement if he believes that he was equal in every way to god. If he has a dual nature then to me it would seem that they are not in knowledge of each other. And this verse… Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Am I taking these verses out of context… because this seems to say to me that Jesus is God’s son not god in the flesh? Why does God not state these things clearly “I’m coming to earth in the flesh…” I’m not sending my son but me God… I’m coming”.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  6. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    thanks for that verse... I would like to study that as it relates to Jesus Christ. that's truly something to think about. thanks
     
  7. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    The prayer that is said by Jews as they lay down and rise up is from Deut. 6:4My intepretation is a bit different than what is in the word...This is said in our home often in Hebrew and I apoligize for not having an exact translation. Deut 6:4 Hear Oh Israel the LORD our God is one LORDThe LORD in the Bible that you see all capitalized is how the interpreters mark the holy name of God which is in Hebrew ....YahVeh... or Yod Hah Vav Hah the hebrew letters that form the holy name. Most Jews never say this name in order to prevent themselves for using it in vain. They say instead things like HaShem or the Name..I'd like to look at the Ps. 22 with you here also for others to see who may not take out the Bible... The first verse is the :My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me...but further we see the similarities to the things happening around Christ at the time of His crucifiction.vs 7-8 All that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying, He trusted on the LORD(YAHVEH)that he would deliver him , let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.14: I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint, may heart is like water; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.15: My strength is dried up like a potschard and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; they have brought me into the dust of death.16. For dogs have compased me; the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND MY FEET18:THEY PART MY GARMENTS AMONG THEM AND CAST LOTS UPON MY VESTURE.The next chapter in the Psalms is the one most of us have memorized from a young age and the most recognized one:THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD... I SHALL NOT WANT....ect.remember verse 4: Yea , thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me.I am truly thankful for the opportunity to be reminded of the Truth of the Word and how God has again and again placed in the Word confirmations of the the omnitientcy of the Word and our Father who inspired it.AS to Jesus stating that the Father is greater... of course the Father is greater than all of creation including the son...It is difficult to see the corelation between the spiritual and the flesh...For me it took many years of prayer and study and it came to me in a stange way.WE are flesh, but inside us all are spiritual bodies... these are the intities that God placed within each of us at conception. We were with Him in these spiritual bodies until the time HE chose to place us in the flesh on this earth.In exactly the same way Christ was place into His flesh body ..only His Spirit was the Spirit of the Father....This is a simplistic explaination... there is much more to understanding the whole relation we have between the spiritual and the flesh, but we are limited here. I hope this helps you. I know that if you pray and ask God to give you understanding He will. Seek and ye shall find.
     
  8. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Additional explaination: We do not remember the time before we were placed in the flesh.. I believe that is why our brains are only partially used. In the same way as we have spiritual growth, so did Christ... The Holy Spirit and the Word lead guide and grow us into who we are....Christ prayed to the Father just the same way we do.... but He was holy, unlike us... His spirit inside was from the Mighty, Glorious, Father of the Universe.... and as it says in the Word in John... IN the beginning was the Word, the Word was God and the Word was with God. This makes Jesus so much more than we can ever be. And yet he was made " a liitte less than the angels" The flesh is sinful, and unclean... the opposite of holy... but God inhabited it in this special supernatural way. I hope this helps.
     
  9. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    MUSTAFAA,Well said, pointed out. Take a close look at Isaiah 45 in your own Bibles and check this out ~ Isaiah 45:1. THUS SAITH JEHOVAH... 3. I, JEHOVAH ... AM THE ELOHIM OF ISRAEL. 5. I AM JEHOVAH ... THERE IS NO ELOHIM BESIDE ME. 6. I AM JEHOVAH, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. 7. I, JEHOVAH DO ALL THESE THINGS. 8. I, JEHOVAH HAVE CREATED IT. 11. THUS SAITH JEHOVAH, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL, AND HIS MAKER. 13. SAITH THE JEHOVAH OF HOSTS. 14. THUS SAITH JEHOVAH. SURELY EL IS IN THEE; AND THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO ELOHIM. 15. VERILY THOU ARE AN EL THAT HIDEST THYSELF, 0 ELOHIM OF ISRAEL, THE SAVIOUR. 17. BUT ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED IN JEHOVAH. 18. FOR THUS SAITH JEHOVAH THAT CREATED THE HEAVENS; ELOHIM HIMSELF THAT FORMED THE EARTH AND MADE IT... I AM JEHOVAH; AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. 19. I, JEHOVAH SPEAK RIGHTEOUSNESS. 21. HAVE NOT I, JEHOVAH? AND THERE IS NO ELOHIM BESIDE ME; A JUST EL AND A SAVIOUR; THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. 22. FOR I AM EL, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. 24. SURELY IN JEHOVAH HAVE I RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH. 25. IN JEHOVAH SHALL ALL THE SEED OF ISRAEL BE JUSTIFIED, AND SHALL GLORY. Are Jehovah, El, and Elohim one and the same? Is there only one God? And is not that one God Creator, Saviour, and the only One to be Note that in verse 23 El says something that is repeated in Ph'p 2:10. According to this, Christ is El. And El is both Elohim and Jehovah. Then who is Christ? * ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  10. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    Sometime when reading the bible I feel hungry to know the truth about a subject, and then I read something that feels my body like bread… that was the first time I ever read that Isaiah 45, thanks for your inspiration on the subject, I will keep that with me always.
     
  11. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    I would like to hear from someone more knowledgeable then myself in scripture as to what God is trying to convey to us in Isaiah 45 about the trinity of himself and about the oneness of himself. Side Note:Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Scofield:ISA 45:7 create evil Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin. It would seem to me that some would say that when God does something that seems evil to us it would really be a divine decree that we can not be aware of… what do you think? But why would he (God) use the world evil, just after saying the he makes “peace”.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    heres a thread where we discussed this subject you might find of interesthttp://www.christianityboard.com/did-god-c...t788.html?t=788...................................................................................repost from another thread is thisThe Godhead consists of three entities. The term God (divine) is applied to the Father (Rom. 1: 7), the Son (Heb. 1: 8), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5: 3, 4). While three entities comprise the Godhead (state of being God), they are one in nature, purpose, and thinking (cf. Jn. 14: 8-11). The scriptures never refer to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Godhead) as gods. When "gods" is used, it refers to idols or pagan pantheons (Ex. 12: 12). Moreover, it is significant that the Hebrew adjective of singularity (one) is used with the plural noun God (Elohim). "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut. 6: 4). Notwithstanding, the scriptures clearly present three separate and distinct entities or personalities: 2 Cor. 13: 14, Eph. 4: 4-6, Matt. 3: 13-17. The scriptures reveal no degrees of deity. Hence, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-existent, co-eternal, and co-equal. A careful study of the nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit reveals a nature, properties, and characteristics which can only be found concerning God (theios). While there are circumstantial variations (i.e. the incarnation), such a study reveals no variations in the essential nature of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If there had been any varying degrees and gradations of deity (such is really impossible, God is either God or not God, Isa. 46: 5-10), the incarnation would have been the opportunity. However, Jesus, in the flesh, remained God, modernism and some of my brethren to the contrary notwithstanding. Jesus did not "leave his essential nature in heaven (deity, dm) when he came to earth" (2 Cor. 8: 9). He simply disrobed himself of all the grandeur of deity which he enjoyed in heaven (Phili. 2: 6-10)
     
  13. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    shema and rhema,Looking a bit closer, or is it the expanded view, I don't know, but Elohim is the word for God in Gen. 1:1. El is God in contrast to the gods of the heathen. See it in Gen. 14:18. Jehovah is the I AM that was revealed to Moses at the burning bush.It is written also, that The Word made flesh is God~ not A god, as some would say, for that brings in other gods and that is contrary to the very first commandment and has to do with idolatry (and ignores the Figures meant to draw arrest our attention). As true Christians we have to recognize the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was God, or no god at all. Only God is to be worshiped, according to the law of Israel. That has not been changed. Worship is ordained for Christ in Ph'p. 2:10. Hebrews 1:6 says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Some have even tried to make Jehovah a lesser god. Chapter 45, (quoted above) speaks for itself. Jehovah is God and there is none else. Take away Jehovah and there is no God. Take away Jesus Christ and there is no God. The implications are plain. There is one God who has chosen to make Himself manifest in three persons.That the Lord Christ Jesus could say, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Mat 23:37) deserves more than a mere once over. Why, we do not only see the Lord taking care of these people throughout the OT, but can we not see the form of this very brooding as far back as Genesis 1:2?
     
  14. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Perhaps this will help find it's mark, or open up further what others have brought to bear here, regarding, what evil might the Lord create;God teaches oft through contrast. We see this plainly sprinkled throughout Scripture. Let's look at these verses again ~Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?That they may know...there is none elseI form...all these thingsDrop down...I the LORD have created itWoe unto him that striveth with his Maker...What makest thou?firstly, do you see the contrast? What does the Maker make, and the direct and immediate contrast is, 'striveth...what makest thou'? This is the point here, and the point of the usage of this word evil, as it is used here. Now, there are a wide variety of Hebrew possibilities as they are used with this word 'create', or bara.here it means 'bring about'.better for our English mind, is to find its own concept:God doesn't create evil, but does create the repercussions of participating in that which is evil.it is called righteous indignation.Bullinger writes ~, create, affords the Poel Participle of subject, which, with, and requires the rendering 'bring about'. this is not in the same form as in vv8, 12, or v18 in connection with the earth. in Jer 18:11 it is the verb yazar, to frame, to mold. in Amos 3:6 it is the verb ashah, to bring about.Evil, is never rendered sin. God brings calamity about as the inevitable consequence of sin. it is rened 'calamity' in Ps. 141. 5 'adversity' in 1 Sam. 10:19, Ps 94:13, Ecc. 7"14; 'grief' in Neh 2:10,...; 'affliction' in Num. 11:11,elsewhere rendered misery, hurt, noisesome, sore, wretchedness, harm, and mischief.so God is not and has not and does not create evil, it is a figure of speech, an idiom, an Hebraism. God does bring about the repercussions of mans (moral) inventions.What is an idiom?“An accepted phrase or expression having a meaning different from the literal meaning”....what makest thou? should, at this point, take on a new tone, perhaps even reflecting us back up to that word evil (and the context).Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! * - ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* - ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* - ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  15. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    If I may be so bold, I think both of you put forth valid truths, there is only one Potentate, Paul sets this forth again reminding (I think these are words of earth, holy words) ~1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (OT states only Jehovah can do this); of whom I am chief. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. ~ It may be seen in Ph'p, the Saviour has taken seven steps down from Glory, where He will take on the 'form' (morphe) of a slave ~Phi 2:5-8He made himself of no reputation –1Taking upon Himself the form of a slave –2 Being made in the likeness of men: -3And being found in fashion as a man –4He humbled himself –5And became obedient unto death –6Even the death of the cross, the death of a slave –7A 7 step return to Glory ~vv. 9-11Given him a name which is above every name –1That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow –2Of things in heaven –3And things in earth –4And things under the earth –5And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord –6(Finally, His image finally returns to God the Father so that God is again, all in all) To the glory of God the Father –7(Gr. morphe. occ once in Mark 16)Then what Christ has worked in, we are to work out. Christ has worked in all this, and more, leading one to walk a worthy walk, based upon 'sound doctrine', from the doctrine, practice ~Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
     
  16. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah New Member

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    Hi MUSTAFAA, The doctrine of the trinity has long been taught by the churches. It was not an established doctrine of the church for almost three hundred years following the death of the apostle John in about 100 C.E. The Catholic Encyclopedia says of the trinity: "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion . . . Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”Nearly all other churches in Christendom agree. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church also calls the Trinity “the fundamental doctrine of Christianity,” even saying: “Christians are those who accept Christ as God.” In the book Our Orthodox Christian Faith, the same church declares: “God is triune. . . . The Father is totally God. The Son is totally God. The Holy Spirit is totally God.”Thus, the Trinity is considered to be “one God in three Persons.” Each is said to be without beginning, having existed for eternity. Each is said to be almighty, with each neither greater nor lesser than the others. Is such reasoning hard to follow ? Many sincere believers, such as yourself, have found it to be confusing, contrary to normal reason, unlike anything in their experience. How, they ask, could the Father be God, Jesus be God, and the holy spirit be God, yet there be not three Gods but only one God ? Cardinal John O’Connor (1920-2000) once stated: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.” And former Pope John Paul II (1920-2005) spoke of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”A Protestant publication states: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”-New Catholic Encyclopedia.While the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it ? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures (“Old Testament”) reveal ? The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: “Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.” And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”How then, did the trinity develop ? For many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended of the about 1800 in the empire a conference in Nicaea. The Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead. After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. The Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.” Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions ? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations ? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”However, what does the Bible say about God, Jesus, and the holy spirit being "co-eternal", "co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent" ? That is the foundation upon which the trinity should have support. Does the Bible support it ? Here are some Scriptures for all to consider and reason on. The apostle Paul, in writing to the Colossians, said that Jesus is "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."(Col 1:15, American Standard Version) How can Jesus be "co-eternal" and yet be God's firstborn and the "image of the invisible God" ? Furthermore Jesus, when speaking to the seven congregations in the book of Revelation, told them that "these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."(Rev 3:14, King James Bible) How can Jesus, as the "Amen", be "the beginning of the creation of God" and yet be "co-eternal" ? On the day of Jesus resurrection, Jesus told Mary, to "touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."(John 20:17 King James Bible) This statement is very clear, that Jesus was ascending to ' his God'. Hence, how could he be "co-equal" ? On the night before Jesus death, in prayer to his Father, said: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."(John 17:3, King James Bible) Thus, Jesus made known that his Father is "the only true God", with him as having been sent forth by him. Jesus is therefore not God, nor part of a "Godhead". At Revelation 3:12, Jesus says to the "church in Philadelphia" that the "one that conquers -- I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God...and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God." How could Jesus say this if he were God, part of a trinity ? The apostle Paul wrote of Jesus, that "in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; "(Heb 5:7-9 American Standard Version) If Jesus were God, why did he have "godly fear", why did he have to have "learned obedience", or be "made perfect" ? Does God have to fear or be obedient to anyone, or have to be "made perfect" since he is the very epitome of perfection, setting the standards of it ? The apostle Paul, in writing to the Ephesians, said that "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"(King James Bible) This statement by Paul says that Jesus has a Father and a God, just as he himself told Mary at John 20:17. These are just a few Scriptures that assist individuals to reason on Jesus role, as the apostle John wrote in completing his book of John, saying: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."(John 20:31 King James Bible) There are more to consider, if one wishes to examine this even more closely. As a point of interest, many will turn to John 1:1, directing attention to it and say here is "my proof that Jesus is God". This Scripture, when properly analysed, does not support the trinity, as does not John 10:30, where Jesus said that "I and the Father are one", nor Titus 2:13, nor Hebrews 1:8. Many look at these and a few other Scriptures topically, on the surface, but have not done their "homework" regarding them, digging deep to grasp what was really said. I must finally add that to grasp or understand Jesus role as the "Word of God", one must put aside preconceived ideologies and look carefully at him, his Father, and the holy spirit from the Bible.
     
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  17. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah New Member

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    Hi MUSTAFAA, Those that believe in the trinity fail to give thoughtful consideration to a number of other Scriptures or just dismisses them. These accept what they have been taught by the religious leaders. During his ministry, Jesus clearly noted that the "common people" were bogged down with the "teachings of the Pharisees and Sadduces".(Matt 16:12) However, Jesus said, at Matthew 4:4, that " It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."(King James Bible) And the apostle Paul wrote, at 2 Timothy 3:16, that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"(King James Bible) Thus, to come to an accurate understanding of the Bible, all the Bible must be given careful study. The ancient Boreans did just this, for it was written of them that "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."(Acts 17:11) Yes, they wanted to know if what they were being taught "were so" or the "truth".As you have reasoned on several Scriptures, questions came up that those who support this doctrine are unable to satisfactorily explain. If Pope Paul and Cardinal John O'Connor saw this doctrine as a "mystery", then can one to expect that the "flock" would be able explain it ? Many turn to John 1:1 as their favorite Scripture when speaking of the Trinity, in which the King James Bible says that "the Word was God". However, here is something to consider: In digging deeper into the original Greek, it was found that John 1:1,2 does not say that "the Word was God", as so many Bibles have rendered it. The original Greek says: "En arche en ho Logos, kai ho Logos en pros tonTheon, kai theos en ho Logos." This literally means "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and god was the Word". The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, the interlinear reading says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word". Thus, this interlinear reading says that the "Word" was "a god". This was written in Koine Greek and the first mention of "god" in this verse is preceeded by the Greek definite article ton, which literally means "the". Koine, or common Greek, had no indefinite article,(corresponding to “a” or “an”). However, in the second occurrence of "god", there is no definite article. Why did John use "the" before the first occurrence of God (theos), but not before the second occurrence of it, and yet again in the third occurrence ? Is there a difference between asking for "the" black suit and "a" black suit ? Yes, there is. Likewise with the apostle John using the Greek definite article of "ton" (the) before the first use of God. He intentionally used it to separate who is meant by "god". How else would one distinguish between two individuals, except by saying "the man", as opposed to "a man" ? By use of "the"(Greek ton), John is speaking of a specific person - God, whereas in using "god" without a definite article, he was identifying the "Word" as being godlike, or having a godly quality, thus describing the nature of the Word. Therefore, Philip B. Harner, in his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” published in Journal of Biblical Literature, said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate (without definiteness ) preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos. There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite.” Thus, five German Bible translators likewise use the term “a god” in that verse. At least 13 others have used expressions such as “of divine kind” or “godlike kind.” For example, "In the beginning the Word [Greek, Lo´gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” The Complete Bible-An American Translation (1939), A New Translation of the Bible (1935); or “of divine being,” Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.”(John 1:1,2) The apostle John, in using the Greek article "ton" (the) before the first occurrence of God at John 1:1, 2 but not in the second occurrence, and yet in the third, was thereby pointing toward the Word, Jesus Christ, as having the quality of godlike ones, but not the person of God. If John had said ton theos en ho logos, (the God is the Word), instead of kai theos en ho Logos, (and god is the Word) in verse 1, using a definite article in front of both nouns, then he would definitely have identified the logos [the Word] with God, but because he has no definite article in front of theos in it's second occurrence at John 1:1, it becomes a description, more of an adjective than a noun. Thus a logical question arises - If Jesus were God, then why did John twice say that the "Word" was with God ? This would have been unnecessary, for how can you be with someone and at the same time be that person ? Even Pontius Pilate identified Jesus as a specific person, by saying: "Look! The man!" (John 19:5) He did not say ' Look! A man '. Here is another thought for many to consider: If Jesus had been God, could the apostle John have said that ""no man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god (monogenes theos - "only-begotten god", not "God only-begotten" ) who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him" ?(John 1:18; 1 John 4:12) Thousands of people saw Jesus during the course of his ministry, including John, so how could John say this, not once, but twice, if Jesus were God and not be lying ? How is this to be explained ? Too, how could Jesus or the Word be in the "bosom of the Father"(King James Bible) and at the same time be God ? These questions have caused many to reconsider the teaching of the trinity.Another example that some may use, according to the King James Bible at 1 Timothy 3:16, which reads: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Why does the King James Bible, along with some other Bibles, continue to read that "God was manifest in the flesh", since it is now known that this Scripture had been tampered with ? Through the efforts of Konstantin Von Tischendorf, who upon textual comparison with the Sinaitic Manuscript of the fourth century and John James Wetstein(1693-1754), in comparing this Scripture with the Alexandrine Manuscript of the fifth century, found that the Greek word for "He" had been changed to the abbreviation for "God". Thus, many Bibles today read: "He who" instead of "God".(American Standard Version, Williams New Testament, The New English Bible) Thus, it was revealed that there had been a later corruption of the text, evidently introduced to support the Trinity doctrine. This was also true of 1 John 5:7, in which the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one” was added. In the fourth century C.E., in a Latin treatise, an overzealous advocate of Trinitarianism evidently included these words as if these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7. Later that passage was put right into the text of a Latin Bible manuscript. Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”-A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.A footnote in The Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation, says that these words are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself.” A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), traces in detail the history of the spurious passage. It states that the passage is first found in a treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, of the fourth century, and that it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures, beginning in the sixth century. Modern translations as a whole, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include them in the main body of the text, because of recognizing their spurious nature.(Revised Standard Version, The New English Bible,The New American Bible, (1970), Catholic Biblical Association of America)Because some Bible translators have let theological interest cloud their thinking rather than a real desire for the "truth", these have tampered with or tainted some of the Bibles. There are many more Scriptures that show that Jesus is indeed God's "only-begotten Son". I have touched on just a few and hope to add another reply to further clarify Jesus role.
     
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  18. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Being that John 1 is surfaced, permit me to expound upon this a bit with some help from ye ol Companion Bible.Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.En arche (4 times in NT ref Gen 1.1){supplies the dependent word by context, where it is not expressed} as here and v.2, supply ‘[of the aions = ages]’. was=was (pre-existent), creation is not mentioned till v.3 – for the Logos then ‘was’, and the aions were prepared by Him - Heb 1:1,2; God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds (aions) were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.Other combinations of ‘arch’;In Acts 11.15 supply ‘[of our ministry’ (1 Jon 2.4)]. In Phil 4.15 supply ‘[the proclamation of] the Gospel’. Other prepositions on John 6.64 (“ex arches”); John 8.44 (“apo arches”), Heb 1.10 (“kai archas”),.The same “was” as in v 14. the Word (Logos), as the spoken word reveals the invisible thought, so the Living Word reveals the invisible God; V18 ‘hath declared Him’ – ‘eis’, ‘in’=into, expresses continued relationship. We have therefore, the Living Word to make known, lead the way by expounding “exegesis”, only here Luke 24.35; Acts 10.8; 15.12, 14; 21.19.Note the figure Polysyndeton, with ‘pros’ implying personal presence and relation (also v18) God with the article = the revealed God of the Bible, THE WORD WAS GOD. This is correct, the article designates THE WORD as the subject.(1) The order of the words. - In the second sentence of the first verse the original is: Ho logos en pros ton Theon (‘The Word was toward the God’). In the third sentence, however, the order of the words is reversed, Kai Theos en ho logos (‘And God was the Word’).This change of order is an example of the figure called in Greek Hyperbaton (‘To step over’) and in English ‘Transposition’.‘Special attention is desired for some particular word. Placed in its ordinary and usual position, it may not be noticed. But, put out of its usual and placed at the beginning, instead of at the end of a sentence, it is impossible for the reader not to be arrested by it’ (Dr. Bullinger’s ‘Figures of Speech’).The particular word brought into prominence in this case is Theos. The figure therefore emphasis’s the fact that the One Who is revealed under the title Ho Logos is Himself truly and essentially ‘God’. With a few exceptions, we may tell which is the subject or the predicate of a sentence by the presence or absence of the article. In all three clauses here it is ‘The Word’ that is the subject:‘THE WORD’. - He it is Who was in the beginning.‘THE WORD’. - He it is Who was with God.‘THE WORD’. - He it is Who was God.Parallel with this last form of expression is that found in 4:24, Pneuma ho Theos. Literally, this would be ‘Spirit the God’, but if we render it so that the English reader will get the same effect as the original would give to a Greek, we should have: ‘God is (as to His essence) SPIRIT’ (not ‘a spirit’). So in 1:1, ‘The Word was (as to His essence) GOD’ (not ‘a god’).(2) The absence of the article. - There are some who would translate it thus: ‘The Word was a God’, because Theos is without the article. The following references, however, all of which occur in the prologue, will be enough to show the incorrectness of such a translation (The Berean Expositor). ‘There was a man sent from a God’ (6).‘Power to become children of a God’ (12).‘Which were born of a God’ (13).‘No man hath seen a God at any time’ (18).The last reference from verse 18 corresponds with that of verse 1, as is seen by the structure:{/a In the beginning was the WORD.b The Word was WITH God.c The Word was GOD.c God only begotten.b In the BOSOM of the FATHER.a He hath DECLARED Him.We see this inverse pattern throughout the Bible, a-b-c-c-b-a. Here the ‘Word’ is echoed by ‘declared’, and the term ‘with God’ finds its echo in ‘in the bosom of the Father’. The reading ‘God only begotten’ echoes the statement that the ‘Word was God’. The structure of the complete section is as follows:A 1:1. a THE WORD. In the beginning.b WITH. The Word was with God.c GOD. The Word was God.B 2. The same was in the beginning with God.C 3. All things were made by Him (egeneto dia).D 4,5. In Him light and life (en).E 6-8. JOHN. Witness (marturia).F 9. True light cometh into the world (erchomenon).G 10,11. Received not (paralambano).G 12,13. Received (lambano).F 14. The Word made flesh dwelt among us (eskenosen).E 15. JOHN. Witness (martureo).D 16. Out of His fulness (ek).C 17. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (egeneto dia).B 18. No man hath seen God at any time.A 18. c GOD. God only begotten (The Word was God).b BOSOM. The bosom of the Father (With God).a DECLARED. He hath declared Him (The Word)./}‘The Word was God’ (as to His substance or essence).‘No man hath seen God’ (as to His substance or essence).A similar usage of the article, or rather of its absence, is found in verse 14: ‘The Word was made flesh’. It would be manifestly absurd to translate this ‘The Word was made a flesh’. The word Theos is used of God in the Scriptures in three different ways:(1) Essentially, as in John 4:24: ‘God is Spirit’.(2) Personally, as of the Father: ‘God the Father’ (Gal. 1:1).Personally, as of the Son: ‘Unto the Son, He saith ... O God’ (Heb. 1:8). Personally, as of the Spirit: ‘The Holy Ghost ... God’ (Acts 5:3,4).(3) Manifestly, as of the Word: ‘The Word was God’ (1:1).* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  19. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah New Member

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    Hi epouraniois,It is interesting that many Bibles render John 1:1 as the "Word was God" without any assistance of a definite article "the". Yet at Revelation 19:13, Jesus is called the "Word of God". How can Jesus, as the "Word" be God, and at the same time be spoken of as the "Word of God" ?(Rev 19:13) At Genesis 24:15, Milcah is spoken of as the "wife of Nahor". Was Milcah then Nahor or was she "owned" by Nahor ? At Revelation19:15, Jesus, as the "Word of God", is spoken of as treading " the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."(Rev 19:15 King James Bible) How can Jesus be said to be treading the "winepress...of Almighty God", being God's executioner if he were God himself ? Jesus, on the night before his death, told his eleven faithful apostles, John 14:28, that " Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."(King James Bible) If Jesus were "fully God and fully man", then why would he make such a statement ? At John 8:28, Jesus told his Jewish listeners, that "when ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."(King James Bible) How can Jesus be God and yet have been "taught" and speak "nothing of myself" ? Is God "taught" anything ?When Jesus was previously in the temple, he said, at John 7:28,29, that "Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me."(King James Bible) or as a modern English Bible says: "You both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and you do not know him. I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.” (New World Translation) How can Jesus be God and "not come of myself " ? At Mark 14:36, Jesus, in prayer to his Father, said: "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."(King James Bible) If Jesus were God, why would he use an expression that basically means "daddy" or "papa", that a child would use when talking with his Father ? The apostle Paul said, at Romans 8:15, of those who are chosen as "God's sons": "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."(King James Bible) Why would Jesus called his Father "daddy" if he were God, unless he were truly his "Son" ?At Matthew 28:18, after Jesus was resurrected, said to those at a mountain in Galilee, that "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."(King James Bible) If Jesus were God, who already has "all power", then why was Jesus given something he is supposed to already have ? Almost twenty years later, the apostle Paul wrote that "I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."(King James Bible) How could Jesus be God and yet according to Paul that the "head of the Christ is God" ? In the early morning of Nisan 14, 33 C.E., when Jesus was being arrested, he said: "Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now?"(Matt 26:53 International Standard Version) Why would Jesus have to "call on (his) Father" for "more than twelve legends of angels" if he were God ? Too, when Jesus was hanging on the torture stake, he cried out: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."(Luke 23:34 King James Bible) Why would Jesus request this if he were God ? In addition, the Scripture at John 1:14, whereby Jesus is shown to have been "made flesh" is proper, for the word "flesh" is descriptive that shows what Jesus became. Just as at Ezekiel 29:18, in which Nebuchadnezzar's army was "made bald" by their helmets chaffing against their heads when sieging Tyre sometime after the fall of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. Thus "bald" was descriptive of their heads during the siege.
     
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  20. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    Logos General Information The word logos (from the root of the Greek verb lego, "to say") figures prominently in a number of Greek and Christian philosophical doctrines. Although the word's earliest meaning probably was "connected discourse," by the classical period it already had a wide variety of other meanings: "argument," "rational principle," "reason," "proportion," "measure," and others. For this reason, it is difficult to interpret the logos doctrines of philosophers and dangerous to assume a single history for these doctrines. Heraclitus was the earliest Greek thinker to make logos a central concept. He urges us to pay attention to the logos, which "governs all things" and yet is also something we "encounter every day." We should probably emphasize the linguistic connections of logos when interpreting Heraclitus's thought. In our efforts to understand the world, we should look to our language and the order embodied in it, rather than to scientific or religious views that neglect this. In the 3d century BC the proponents of Stoicism borrowed the idea of logos from Heraclitus (neither Plato nor Aristotle had given the term prominence) and used it for the immanent ordering principle of the universe - represented, at the level of language, by humankind's ordered discourse. Nature and logos are often treated as one and the same; but logos is nature's overall rational structure, and not all natural creatures have logos, or reason, within them. Humans are urged to "live consistently with logos." In the New Testament, the Gospel According to Saint John gives a central place to logos; the biblical author describes the Logos as God, the Creative Word, who took on flesh in the man Jesus Christ. Many have traced John's conception to Greek origins - perhaps through the intermediacy of eclectic texts like the writings of Philo of Alexandria. More recently, however, scholars have emphasized that the Old Testament contains a doctrine of the Word of God; and in Aramaic paraphrases the "Word of God" takes on some of the functions of God. Later Christian thinkers clearly did incorporate the Stoic logos doctrine; logos was associated particularly with Christ and later, in Arianism, no longer identified with God. Martha C Nussbaum BibliographyJ Carey, Kairos and Logos (1978); W J Ong, Presence of the Word (1967).
     
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