3d/3n is NOT an idiom!

[FHII]

Yes. Its another crucixion/resurrection thread! And I am starting it because some points I have made have gone undressed. Or, if they have been adressed I missed them. Easy to do with multiple pages on the subject. If anyone did address it and I missed it, I apologize.

I am flat out stating that the phrase "3 days and 3 nights" is not an idiom. I am looking to show my evidence for that. I have 2 pieces of evidence to put forth:

1. Ester 4.

This is not hard to show other than the fact that those who believe the phrase is an idiom use this verse to prove so. But they are wrong.

Esther 4:16 KJV
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

Esther 5:1 KJV
Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel , and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

What has happened is that a fast for 3 days and 3 nights was called for by Ester. And on the 3rd day she went to see the king.

Do you see how this can be interpreted to believe that 3 days and 3 nights is anything less than 72 hours?

I can't! Those that believe that is true get hung up on when Ester went to see the King. But the 3 days and 3 nights refers to the fast... Not her visit to the king.

The fast was called for the people first. Ester joined it. It was primarily what she asked others to do. It was secondary that she joined and her going before the King on the 3rd day has NOTHING to do with the call for the fast.

So now we must understand the time tables of a fast. There are many different types of fasts. However, in cases like this the Hebrews tend to be exact. A fast will begin at sundown and end at sundown. Some references I've checked say they add an hour "just to be sure". But the bottom line is that a day and night fast is 24 hours. A 3 day and night fast is 72 hours.

So this has to do with Jesus being in the tomb. If you are orthodox and believe in a friday burial and sunday ressurection, and use this Ester reference, you have a problem.

Friday to Sunday morning spans 3 days. So can a Hebrew fast 18-20 hours and call it a 3 day fast? I challenge anyone to talk to a Jew about that and see what they say!

3 days and 3 nights for a fast is officially 72 hours. So those who use Ester to try to prove a Friday crucixion are wrong.

 

[FHII]

2nd Point and most damaging. I am going to refer to an actual Rabbi. Rabbi David Markel Hall:

"It is claimed that the reference in Matthew 12:40 is an idiom in attempt to explain away the three days and nights. However, phrases which include the words "and night(s)" are not considered to be idioms.... Therefore using the phrase, "days and nights" removes the phrase from the realm of idioms and causes the understanding to become three literal twenty four hour periods of time."

There you have it from an actual Rabbi! 3 days and 3 nights is not an idiom. "The third day"... That can be an idiom. So when Ester says she visited the king on the third day: idiom. When she requested a 3 day and night fast: 72 hours. Jesus rising on the 3rd day: idiom. Jesus in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights: 72 hours.

Conclusion:

Though this may not be the end of the debate on the passion week timeline, it really should put an end to the belief that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom.

http://m.tzion.org/site/articles/threedays.html

 

[Suneses]

Correct….Jesus Christ was crucified and died about the ninth hour (around our 3pm in the afternoon) Wednesday the 14th of Nisan….. He was entombed sometime before sunset …. and that, according to the Word is when we start our count. Not from the time of death, but from the time of burial.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The 15th of Nisan (Thursday) which began at sunset was Passover, a high day or special Sabbath.

Three days and three nights, as you so correctly advocate, is not an idiom. Any portion of a day can be called a day when used by itself. However…….. whenever the Bible uses the words day and night together a literal period of 24 hours is denoted.

Those who adhere to the idiom illogic and the traditional religious teaching of Good Friday through Sunday … are still coming up short, by a night…. It doesn’t fit, no matter how they try to force it.

God raised Jesus Christ was from the dead three days and three nights (72 hours) later …..sometime before sunset on Saturday the 17th of Nissan, which was the weekly Sabbath.

When you correlate the scripture in the gospels regarding the crucifixion it totally substantiates the time period of 72 hours.

 

[Enoch111]

sometime before sunset on Saturday the 17th of Nissan, which was the weekly Sabbath

Since the 7th day Sabbath was also God's day of rest (originally after creation) then the stupendous and mighty work of the resurrection of Christ could not possibly occur on God's day of rest! God would not violate His own Sabbath. So it was the 18th of Nisan -- the first day of the week -- when Christ arose.

This also corresponds to Christ being called "the First Fruits of them that slept" (1 Cor 15:20,23), since the sheaf of first fruits (representing Christ) was waved on "the morrow AFTER the sabbath".

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Lev 23:10,11).

 

[FHII]

Since the 7th day Sabbath was also God's day of rest (originally after creation) then the stupendous and mighty work of the resurrection of Christ could not possibly occur on God's day of rest! God would not violate His own Sabbath. So it was the 18th of Nisan -- the first day of the week -- when Christ arose.

Wouldn't be the first time Jesus broke the Sabbath:

Matthew 12:2-8 KJV
But when the Pharisees saw it , they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. [3] But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; [4] How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? [5] Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? [6] But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. [7] But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. [8] For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

 

[Enoch111]

Wouldn't be the first time Jesus broke the Sabbath

You are forgetting that Christ is called "the First Fruits". Therefore there was no Sabbath-violation.

1 CORINTHIANS 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[FHII]

You are forgetting that Christ is called "the First Fruits". Therefore there was no Sabbath-violation.

1 CORINTHIANS 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Taking a verse in Corinthians and pairing it with a verse with a verse from LevLeviticusDo you feel this proves that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom? Are those two verses stronger evidence than a Rabbi explaining what an idiom is and isn't ?

 

[epostle1]

Taking a verse in Corinthians and pairing it with a verse with a verse from LevLeviticusDo you feel this proves that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom? Are those two verses stronger evidence than a Rabbi explaining what an idiom is and isn't ?

Two verses doesn't disprove 3d and 3n idiom either. I did a search for "three days and three nights hebrew idiom" and I got 147,000 results, most of them Jewish. A 3d and 3n idiom resolves the scriptural gymnastics of 3 24 hour days.

 

[FHII]

Two verses doesn't disprove 3d and 3n idiom either.

I would say that a Rabbi claiming it isn't an idiom and actually explaining how idioms work does disprove it though.

I would also say that the undeniable fact that fasts were exact and that the 2 or 3 scriptural references from the OT that are used to support the notion are about fasting (and thus, don't really support the belief that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom).

I did a search for "three days and three nights hebrew idiom" and I got 147,000 results, most of them Jewish

So what? Did you read them all? I did a search too and looked at the first 9 or 10. At least 3 of them say its not an idiom. 3 of the sites that support that it is an idiom reference the same source.

No one would expect someone to read through 147000 resources. However, it it not reasonable to point to the number of google hits and assume all of them are credible or support their stance.

Like I said, I looked at the first 9 or 10. I am not impressed with the reasoning of those who say, its a known idiom". That of course is my opinion, and if you want to believe them over the Rabbi (who's article I referenced is one of the first 4 that came up in my search), go ahead.

A 3d and 3n idiom resolves the scriptural gymnastics of 3 24 hour days.

I don't believethat claiming it is an idiom resolves any "scriptural gymnastics", but instead it creates them.

I appreciate you input Kelpha and look forward to any solid reasoning you can provide. However, at this time I don't see any reasoning to support that this is an idiom.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You are forgetting that Christ is called "the First Fruits". Therefore there was no Sabbath-violation.

1 CORINTHIANS 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I thought that I have seen --and known-- everything, but you showed me herewith that I did not!

Thank you very much!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Taking a verse in Corinthians and pairing it with a verse with a verse from LevLeviticusDo you feel this proves that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom? Are those two verses stronger evidence than a Rabbi explaining what an idiom is and isn't ?

I have no idea what this is about, but I do know that no numbers or rank of Jewish Rabbi's can compare with Christian Scripture!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I thought that I have seen --and known-- everything, but you showed me herewith that I did not!

Thank you very much!

My appreciation for your post, dear Enoch 111, does not mean that your interpretation or conclusions or reasons agreed with mine; on the contrary!

But nevertheless what your post opened my eyes for, could not be missed and deserves further study.

The fact Jesus died a Man meant that He WAS raised, passively, resting because of his humanness, as well as actively, working because of his Divinity, thus "God from all his works RESTED", while and as He "FINISHED" and "HALLOWED" and "BLESSED", and did NOT '~violate His own Sabbath -- when Christ arose~', but since the Seventh Day Sabbath was God's Day of Rest (originally after creation), then the stupendous and mighty work of the resurrection of Christ could not possibly '~break~' God's Day of Rest, but FULFILLED IT WITH OBEDIENCE!
And so it was the 16th of Nisan -- "IN, THE FULLNESS OF, THE SABBATH BEING IN THE VERY MID-AFTERNOON DAYLIGHT, BEFORE, the First Day of the week" Matthew 28:1-4 -- when Christ arose.

 

[FHII]

I have no idea what this is about, but I do know that no numbers or rank of Jewish Rabbi's can compare with Christian Scripture!

When scripture ageees with a Jewish Rabbi who explains how Jewish idioms work then its pretty easy to see the truth which is that Jesus died on a Wednesday.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

When scripture ageees with a Jewish Rabbi who explains how Jewish idioms work then its pretty easy to see the truth which is that Jesus died on a Wednesday.

I won't even ask the rabbi's or you to explain that to me realising whatever one might know about idiom won't help as long as Scripture does not.

 

[FHII]

I won't even ask the rabbi's or you to explain that to me realising whatever one might know about idiom won't help as long as Scripture does not.

You haven't read the link, have you?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You haven't read the link, have you?

I have read it all in many places many, many times.

 

[FHII]

I have read it all in many places many, many times.

Sounds like a "no I haven't " to me. Especially since in post #11 you admitted you didn't know what this is about.

Honestly... I believe you. Without a doubt, I believe you.

What this is about is the Christian world believing that 3d/3n ist some kind of Hebrew or Jewish idiom. Its not. I mean, here IS a hebrew saying its not... Yet, you say he is wrong about what he believes?

Really?

Its even funnier when you start quoting the OT and start talking about the Jewish calandar.... And then call him a "rank rabbi". Like... His input as a rabbi on scripture isn't important.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Sounds like a "no I haven't " to me. Especially since in post #11 you admitted you didn't know what this is about.

Honestly... I believe you. Without a doubt, I believe you.

What this is about is the Christian world believing that 3d/3n ist some kind of Hebrew or Jewish idiom. Its not. I mean, here IS a hebrew saying its not... Yet, you say he is wrong about what he believes?

Really?

Its even funnier when you start quoting the OT and start talking about the Jewish calandar.... And then call him a "rank rabbi". Like... His input as a rabbi on scripture isn't important.

Referring your post #2,

Rabbi David Markel Hall: "It is claimed that the reference in Matthew 12:40 is an idiom in attempt to explain away the three days and nights. However, phrases which include the words "and night(s)" are not considered to be idioms.... Therefore using the phrase, "days and nights" removes the phrase from the realm of idioms and causes the understanding to become three literal twenty four hour periods of time."

I did not '~say he is wrong about what he believes~'. You say I said so. Wrong, I did not.

You say, '~What this is about is the Christian world believing that 3d/3n ist some kind of Hebrew or Jewish idiom.~'

Again, you're wrong. You have not read it all like I have. I know that few if any 'usual' Christians think so, what believe '~that 3d/3n ist some kind of Hebrew or Jewish idiom~', and I know of NO real Christian scholars who think it is.

Your problem is your tunnel-vision. You only look at this '~3d/3n~' issue through the garden hose-pipe telescope of the hand full of WCs who think they are the alpha and omega of wisdom, knowledge, virtue and sciences like language, JUST LIKE THEM JEWS do.

My opinion is, your Jewish rabbi suffers of the same malady as the WCs, aka COG Church-of-gotters, or JRR jewish roots rot.

Because he says '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40 ... become three literal twenty four hour periods of time"~'. Yes because of just saying this.
It shows, yea, proves, that this Jewish boy knows as little as them WCs who say exactly the same!

And NEITHER of them understands OR KNOWS that the '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~' is (are, if you like) THE '~three days and nights~' of Exodus 10:21-23 and further to 15:22a.

1) "the first day kill" Exodus 12:6,7//15a,b//12:21-24 to 12:40//13:1-4 (Leviticus 23:5, 10, 21,22);

2) "the first day 7 days ulb" Exodus 12:8-18//12:25-40//41-51//13:4-12 (Leviticus 23:6-8;11a;15-2);

3) "the first day count" Exodus 14:13 to 15:22 (Leviticus 23:3,38)

Your Jewish rabbi suffers of the same malady as the WCs because he claims '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~', '~become three literal twenty four hour periods of time"~' -PARTS of RANDOM and SEPARATE days, instead of THESE "three days" of "This That Selfsame Whole-Day BONE-DAY" of the Passover-of-Yahweh.

 

[FHII]

Referring your post #2,



I did not '~say he is wrong about what he believes~'. You say I said so. Wrong, I did not.

You say, '~What this is about is the Christian world believing that 3d/3n ist some kind of Hebrew or Jewish idiom.~'

Again, you're wrong. You have not read it all like I have. I know that few if any 'usual' Christians think so, what believe '~that 3d/3n ist some kind of Hebrew or Jewish idiom~', and I know of NO real Christian scholars who think it is.

Your problem is your tunnel-vision. You only look at this '~3d/3n~' issue through the garden hose-pipe telescope of the hand full of WCs who think they are the alpha and omega of wisdom, knowledge, virtue and sciences like language, JUST LIKE THEM JEWS do.

My opinion is, your Jewish rabbi suffers of the same malady as the WCs, aka COG Church-of-gotters, or JRR jewish roots rot.

Because he says '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40 ... become three literal twenty four hour periods of time"~'. Yes because of just saying this.
It shows, yea, proves, that this Jewish boy knows as little as them WCs who say exactly the same!

And NEITHER of them understands OR KNOWS that the '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~' is (are, if you like) THE '~three days and nights~' of Exodus 10:21-23 and further to 15:22a.

1) "the first day kill" Exodus 12:6,7//15a,b//12:21-24 to 12:40//13:1-4 (Leviticus 23:5, 10, 21,22);

2) "the first day 7 days ulb" Exodus 12:8-18//12:25-40//41-51//13:4-12 (Leviticus 23:6-8;11a;15-2);

3) "the first day count" Exodus 14:13 to 15:22 (Leviticus 23:3,38)

Your Jewish rabbi suffers of the same malady as the WCs because he claims '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~', '~become three literal twenty four hour periods of time"~' -PARTS of RANDOM and SEPARATE days, instead of THESE "three days" of "This That Selfsame Whole-Day BONE-DAY" of the Passover-of-Yahweh.

Your post is rather confusing amd at times offensive. Sorry... But I believe that "Jewish boy" over you.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Your post is rather confusing amd at times offensive. Sorry... But I believe that "Jewish boy" over you.

How do you manage to, I agree with both of you that '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~' is NOT an idiom. Never did!
And never said '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~' = '72 hours'!
Have only and always maintained '~3d/3n in Matthew 12:40~' refers to "three days thick darkness" of the SUFFERING, DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION OF THE FIRSTBORN OR FIRST SHEAF OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH.

Does your Rabbi believe that, and you agree with him rather than with Scripture?!