50 Things You Should Know About Tongues And Healing

[Jimmy Engle]

1. The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).

2. The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam. 10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).

3. The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38; 16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).

4. The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).

5. According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).

6. These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).

7. These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12 and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.

8. Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).

9. The Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).

10. The Bible speaks of various spiritual gifts to believers, but tongues and healing are never emphasized more than the other gifts (1 Cor. 12:4-11).

11. The gifts of tongues and healing were not considered the best gifts (1 Cor. 12:28-31).

12. The gift of healing was a sign (Mar. 16:17-18; Exo. 4:6-8; 2 Kgs. 20:8-9).

13. It is not God's will for all Christians to be healed (2 Cor. 12:5-10).

14. The apostle Paul could not heal himself (2 Cor. 12:5-10).

15. Near the end of his ministry, Paul could not heal Trophimus (2 Tim. 4:20).

16. Instead of healing Timothy, Paul gave him medical advice (1 Tim. 5:23).

17. Contrary to the modern faith healers, "love gifts" and "faith offerings" were not a part of the healing ministries of the disciples (Mat. 10:8-9).

18. A Christian who hasn't confessed his sins and repented of them has no business expecting God to heal him of anything (Psa. 6:1-4; 41:4; 2 Chr. 7:14; Hos. 5:10-13; 1 Cor. 11:29-32; Jas. 5:14-16; 1 Jhn. 1:7-10).

19. If modern faith healers really have the gift of healing, then they should prove their ministry by visiting hospitals and nursing homes and healing the sick, rather than writing books, holding healing meetings, and begging for money on television (2 Tim. 4:5; Mat. 10:8-16; 1 Tim. 6:5-10).

20. Satan has the power to heal and this will cause millions to be led astray in the coming Tribulation Period (Rev. 13:1-4, 12).

21. The gift of tongues was given as a sign (Mar. 16:17; 1 Cor. 14:22).

22. The gift of tongues was the supernatural ability of some Christians to speak in foreign languages in the presence of unbelieving Jews (Acts 2:7-11).

23. God has never caused or commanded Christians to speak in unknown tongues (Mar. 16:17; Acts 2:4; 1 Cor. 12:10; 1 Cor. 14).

24. The Bible never says once that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

25. There is no baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1 Corinthians 14.

26. Paul said that all true Christians were baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 12:13), and all true Christians were sealed with the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30), but all Christians did not speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:29-31).

27. The Bible never says that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a second Christian experience or blessing.

28. The baptism of fire is the condemnation of the wicked in Hell (Mat. 3:11-12), not being "on fire for the Lord."

29. Acts 2:3 speaks of "cloven tongues LIKE AS of fire," but the Book of Acts says nothing at all about tongues of fire or a baptism of fire.

30. If a person does not have the spirit of Christ, he has no business waiting for the baptism of the Holy Ghost, because he doesn't even belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9).

31. Pentecost was never a religious movement, or a religious experience. It was a Jewish feast day which always occurred fifty days after the Passover (Lev. 23:15-22 ).

32. Jesus said that when the Holy Ghost came He (the Holy Ghost) would not speak of Himself, because He would glorify Christ (Jhn. 16:13-14).

33. No Christian in the Bible is ever told to pray, preach, sing, or praise God in tongues.

34. The disciples received the Holy Ghost in John 20:22, but they did not speak in tongues when this happened.

35. The filling of the Spirit in Acts 4:31 and Eph. 5:18-20 does not include speaking in tongues.

36. When speaking of spiritual gifts in Ephesians 4:8-12, Paul does not mention tongues.

37. There were only three cases in the Book of Acts where people spoke in tongues (not unknown tongues), and these tongues were a sign to the Jews each time, because the Jews require a sign (Acts 2:1-11; 10:44-46; 19:6-8; 1 Cor. 1:22; 14:22).

38. The former and latter rain of Joel 2 has nothing to do with Acts 2 or the modern-day Charismatic Movement, because the rain of Joel 2 is literal wet rain from the sky in Israel (Joel 2:1-31).

39. Tongues are not even mentioned in the list of spiritual gifts in Romans 12:6-8.

40. Although tongues (not unknown tongues) were permitted in 1 Corinthians 14 (because there was a Jewish synagogue in Corinth - Acts 18:1-4), they were not encouraged because tongues did not edify the church (1 Cor. 14:4-5, 26).

41. It is better to speak five words clearly than ten thousand with an unknown tongue (1 Cor. 14:19).

42. No more than three people were allowed to speak in tongues in the church assembly, and then only one could speak at a time (1 Cor. 14:27).

43. No one was permitted to speak in tongues in the church without an interpreter (1 Cor. 14:27-28).

44. Women were not allowed to speak in tongues in the church (1 Cor. 14:34-35).

45. Those who did speak in tongues (foreign languages) had power over their own spirit (1 Cor. 14:32).

46. A religious man who doesn't bridle his tongue is deceived and he has a vain religion (Jas. 1:26).

47. Many "seducing spirits" are in the world and it is every Christian's duty to "try" these spirits (1 Tim. 4:1; I Jhn. 4:1; Rev. 2:2).

48. The word of God is the standard by which we are to judge all doctrines (Isa. 8:20; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

49. He that is spiritual judges all things (1 Cor. 2:15).

50. Teaching the Scriptural Truth about signs, healing, and tongues is not a matter of being mean, prejudiced, or intolerant. It is simply a matter of obeying the command to RIGHTLY DIVIDE God's word (2 Tim. 2:15).

http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/tongues.html

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Good post.

 

[fivesense]

James, I applaud you for your stance. You are taking a position that is divisive and perpetually arousing anger and distress. I am hoping that you may be able to provide us with the details as to why God, Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, would present His giftings to the world at one point, and then withdraw them? These are good and honorable giftings, meant to bring about God's Kingdom on the earth for all to see, as a witness of His presence among us. Certainly the Kingdom of God has not vanished. For you to claim that these things are no longer operative today would require you to be able to offer a reason for their disappearance. If not, then the undermining of religious beliefs without supplying further truth is nothing more than a vendetta.

Also, if these things be not present, how do you explain their manifestation when they do occur? Are you proposing they are counterfeits and mimicry, not really from God? The ones who operate in these giftings, especially those who have "tongues" given to them, would refuse to accept that it is not of faith, but flesh, that these come forth.

I am looking for an explanation, not a confrontation. I need the truth about it, that my service towards God may be noble and not out of ignorance.

fivesense

 

[[email protected]]

Also, if these things be not present, how do you explain their manifestation when they do occur? Are you proposing they are counterfeits and mimicry, not really from God? The ones who operate in these giftings, especially those who have "tongues" given to them, would refuse to accept that it is not of faith, but flesh, that these come forth.

I am looking for an explanation, not a confrontation. I need the truth about it, that my service towards God may be noble and not out of ignorance.

fivesense

The explanation is that these things do happen.
The truth is that reason has become muddled and faith has eroded away.
Without faith you can accomplish nothing.

The spiritual vision and experience of humanity is at once both temporary and fickle, only the desires of the belly and our loins seem to stay with us.

If there is an enduring lesson from history it is that few things God does with men ever seem to 'sink in' the first time around.
That's why there is a constant reminder in scripture to renew the mind and to remember God's words and deeds of the past.

The problem with spiritual things is that they are both rare and seemingly inconsistant from a human point of view.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8

Humans are not in control of times, places and events wherein the Holy Spirit will manifest its gifts (thank God).

We began by saying that spiritual things do happen; healings, tongues, and the like are with us whether we like it or not.
God has not stopped working and neither has He forgotten how to bless His people.

The Biblical lesson always goes back to faith. In faith we can do all things in Christ.
Apart from it we have only the ravings and rules of the pharisees to comfort us.

Those who deny Christian testimony of spiritual blessings are often those with little or no faith.
If you wish to see signs and wonders from God you must have faith in His willingness to give gifts to men (and not a little willingness to express your grattitude once received).

 

[Jimmy Engle]

Thanks for sharing your views/concerns about what I shared. Keep in mind this is not my work...I'm just sharing what I came across and for the most part I agree with what this person has said. I will try to answer your questions but it's up to you if you want to agree or disagree.

I am hoping that you may be able to provide us with the details as to why God, Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, would present His giftings to the world at one point, and then withdraw them?

I honestly think that people take that verse out of context at times and stretch it too far...saying that God can't do anything knew or stop doing something He has done in the past. I think it was speaking more about His attributes such as His sovereignty, justice, Holiness, righteousness...and so on....they will never change....
God does change...Look at the flood. God flooded the earth and afterwords said He would never do it again. Now one could say...God is the same yesterday, today and forever and yet God said He will never repeat that particular outpouring of wrath upon us again.......I just want you to see how that thinking can be taken too far at times...

For you to claim that these things are no longer operative today would require you to be able to offer a reason for their disappearance.

I never said any such thing...this post is from the work of another and not my own.

Also, if these things be not present, how do you explain their manifestation when they do occur?

In all honesty, I think for the most part, the signs/manifestations that occur today are fake. I do believe that God can and will still use these gifts...I think He doesn't because they are no longer needed. The tongues of today are not the tongues used in Acts/1 Cor. They were real languages...not gibberish like you will find today. They were for a sign for the unbelievers NOT the believers. So many people who are charismatic make much of the Holy Spirit and the gifts. Everything is about the Spirit and it has little to do with God. They emphasize gifts over giver (God). The bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit if it is really in you will speak much of God and Christ and not of itself. People who believe they speak in tongues or can heal boast in it...they are not humble before God but rather boast in gifts they believe they have received. If someone really has the ablility to heal then why are they not in hospitals healing people...no they hide behind a pulpit.
Now God can still use these gifts. One such example is that there was a woman at a conference up in Alaska. She didn't know any english and the preacher was speaking in english. Towards the end of the sermon she was able to understand the preacher and repented and was saved that very moment. Now that is tongues! God supernaturally enabled that women to understand english so she can be saved. I can't prove it this really happened or not but that would be a good example of God at work...not the charismatic stuff going on today.

I have a question for you. Since the bible says that tongues is a sign for unbelievers and not believer...how do you explain the use of tongues today? If my logic is correct....when people pray in tongues and speak in tongues as a means to edify themselves...they are contradicting scripture that says that it's for unbelivers....so if they really do have a gift of tongues....they are using it wrong.

 

[HammerStone]

I honestly think that people take that verse out of context at times and stretch it too far...saying that God can't do anything knew or stop doing something He has done in the past. I think it was speaking more about His attributes such as His sovereignty, justice, Holiness, righteousness...and so on....they will never change....
God does change...Look at the flood. God flooded the earth and afterwords said He would never do it again. Now one could say...God is the same yesterday, today and forever and yet God said He will never repeat that particular outpouring of wrath upon us again.......I just want you to see how that thinking can be taken too far at times...

James you've touched on an issue I see time and again that stirs up some interesting emotions.

I agree with your response, but even more so I'd point out that an "attack" on tongues or healing always seems to end up as an attack on God with certain groups. I've noticed it far too easy to say that healing is a matter of faith and that if your friend or loved one is not healed, they just don't have the faith! I'm even going to put aside the healing part because Christ's response to the Tower of Siloam should show us that it's not always within God's will to heal every bad thing or physical ailment (Luke 13:4). With that though, I'll simply lay aside the healing issue because it's clearly an issue of degrees of belief.

The next topic seems to stir the emotional pot much more.

Tongues is a much more intriguing discussion because something mentioned no more than a handful of times in the New Testament is so tenaciously held on to by some that it becomes maddening. I'm not accusing anyone here of that point, but I love how a disagreement on the interpretation of the term "tongue" can turn into an all out attack on God. I see this red herring time and again, and it often gets ignored even when one is the victim of the invective.

I don't particularly care what the person believes or disbelieves about tongues. I just take issue when it becomes a means of identifying a Christian or true Christian. When it becomes - as we are warned in the verses posted above - a sign. No human needs any kind of sign to determine your Christianity and never let anyone tell you otherwise. That is between you and the Lord and some man or woman "clearing" you because you speak a certain way or perform a certain act is absurd and clearly against the Bible.

Unfortunately the issue is further always addressed in an ambiguous tone as you can see demonstrated quite well above. These tongues are amorphous sounds that sometimes might come out as strange mutterings or really awkward noises are tongues for some; the real point I'm trying to make is you never really know to what the person is saying when they use the word

While, for others, it might simply mean another language spoken elsewhere on Earth where the current speaker simply was not previously fluent in the language.

Instead, the above belief switches you immediately to the bad category where you totally question the Father because your interpretation of one gift out of many is not the same as theirs.

 

[brionne]

I just wanted to add a general reply here regarding tongues.

The tongues that the diciples in the first century spoke were actual foreign languages. This gift was given in order for the jewish diciples to preach to the gentiles....many of whom did not speak hebrew or greek. Acts 2:5-6 "As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."

So the purpose of tongues was to communicate the message of Christ to non believers and they in turn would take the message back to their own country and thus the message of christianity would be sent out into all the world. That was Gods purpose for the tongues and it was accomplished back then the way God had wanted.

However, what we see today is not this sort of tongue at all. No one can understand what is being spoken so the question is what is its purpose today? God wants people to hear and understand the message which is why I dont believe it is actually God causing someone to speak in 'tongues' The good news is readily available in all nations on earth today, so there is no need to communicate in a foreign tongue in order to spread the message. So we could not say the source is from God.

 

[jiggyfly]

I just wanted to add a general reply here regarding tongues.

The tongues that the diciples in the first century spoke were actual foreign languages. This gift was given in order for the jewish diciples to preach to the gentiles....many of whom did not speak hebrew or greek. Acts 2:5-6 "As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."

So the purpose of tongues was to communicate the message of Christ to non believers and they in turn would take the message back to their own country and thus the message of christianity would be sent out into all the world. That was Gods purpose for the tongues and it was accomplished back then the way God had wanted.

However, what we see today is not this sort of tongue at all. No one can understand what is being spoken so the question is what is its purpose today? God wants people to hear and understand the message which is why I dont believe it is actually God causing someone to speak in 'tongues' The good news is readily available in all nations on earth today, so there is no need to communicate in a foreign tongue in order to spread the message. So we could not say the source is from God.

What kind of tongue do you think Paul is referring to here?
[font="'trebuchet ms"]1Cor. 14:2[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.[/font]

 

[brionne]

What kind of tongue do you think Paul is referring to here?
1Cor. 14:2
For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.

the tongue Paul is referring to is a foreign language. Paul says it will be mysterious 'to those listening' so he was very clear that speaking in tongues was only beneficial if they could be interpreted for the benefit of all 1 Corinthians 14:5

If they couldnt interpret what they had spoken, then he didnt want them to speak at all 1 Corinthians 14:27, 28

So if you have church members speaking in tongues it should be asked how necesssary it is...especially considering your congregation would likely all speak english. And if they are not actually speaking a real language, then you should certainly questions exactly what is going on with them...perhaps they are demon possessed.

 

[Martin W.]

James.

You need to learn theology and systematic theology before you begin to teach doctrine.

You are entitled to love tongues or hate tongues. That is your personal choice . Your personal choice benefits or harms only you.

But if you are planning to influence others , or teach others, you must line up all your ducks in a row.

At this point your ducks do not line up.

Neither do the ducks you copied and pasted.

Be careful that you do not become that which you preach against.

Best regards in your studies.

Martin.

 

[jiggyfly]

the tongue Paul is referring to is a foreign language. Paul says it will be mysterious 'to those listening' so he was very clear that speaking in tongues was only beneficial if they could be interpreted for the benefit of all 1 Corinthians 14:5

If they couldnt interpret what they had spoken, then he didnt want them to speak at all 1 Corinthians 14:27, 28

So if you have church members speaking in tongues it should be asked how necesssary it is...especially considering your congregation would likely all speak english. And if they are not actually speaking a real language, then you should certainly questions exactly what is going on with them...perhaps they are demon possessed.

No actually Paul is referring to a tongue that only God knows and it is very necessary unless you think God would give unnecessary gifts.

Here I'll post the scripture again and let's look a little closer at what Paul actually said.

For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. 1Cor. 14:2


A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. 1Cor. I wish you all had the gift of speaking in tongues, but even more I wish you were all able to prophesy... 14:4-5


So anyone who has the gift of speaking in tongues should pray also for the gift of interpretation in order to tell people plainly what has been said. For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying. Well then, what shall I do? I will do both. I will pray in the spirit, [fn] and I will pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will sing in words I understand.1Cor. 14:13-15




I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 1Cor. 14:18


So, dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don't forbid speaking in tongues. 1Cor.14:39


Pegg do you think it is unnecessary for an individual to be personally strengthened in the Lord? Would you call the act of someone being built up in the Lord demonic?


When the 14th chapter of this letter to the Corinthians is studied properly without religious paradigm it becomes very clear that Paul was not against anyone speaking in tongues. He in fact, encourage it and even said that he wished everyone had the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of prophecy. I know I didn't cover the gift of prophecy in my post but i wanted to mainly focus on the gift of speaking in tongues but if someone wants, i would be happy to cover it also in another post.


So in regards to what Paul has actually said in this chapter concerning the gift of speaking in tongues ( strengthening the individual in the Lord) and the gift of prophecy (strengthening the whole group in the Lord) one must ask who would benefit most from these gifts ceasing? Would it be God, the individual believer, the ekklesia, or Satan?


Who is against believers being built up and strengthened in the Lord Jesus the Christ?

[font="'trebuchet ms"]
[/font]

 

[brionne]

So in regards to what Paul has actually said in this chapter concerning the gift of speaking in tongues ( strengthening the individual in the Lord) and the gift of prophecy (strengthening the whole group in the Lord) one must ask who would benefit most from these gifts ceasing? Would it be God, the individual believer, the ekklesia, or Satan?


Who is against believers being built up and strengthened in the Lord Jesus the Christ?

in Hebrews 2:1-4 we are reminded to pay close attention to the teachings of the apostles which began with Jesus and was confirmed by God thru signs/gifts and various powerful works in order to make the christians firm believers. So the purpose was to 'establish' the christian chruch. That was well and trully accomplished back in the first century.

Its for that reason that the gifts were said to eventually 'cease' 1 Corinthians 13:8,9,10 They had served their purpose in establishing the true religion and those whom God was identifying himself with. The millions of believers today are a result of the first century congregation so we could say that God was quite successful.

Now in answer to your question 'who would benefit most from these gifts ceasing' I can tell you that it benefits God the most. the reason I say that is because God wants people to worship him out of 'faith' not becaues they have been compelled to believe in him. John 4:23-24 says that God wants people who worship in 'spirit' and 'truth'

this means that our worship must go deeper than the things which are seen. God is a spirit, he wants us to worship him in the manner of the spirit, the spirit is unseen therefore the best sort of faith is based on things unseen. That why Jesus told thomas "happy are those who have not seen and yet believe"

Also, our faith must be based on 'truth'....this is refering to knowlege. We need accurate knowledge as Jesus said at John 17:3
in order to recieve everlasting life.


So, who benefits when gifts cease? God does for the reason that the people who come to worship him do so out of true faith, these are the sorts of people that God is looking for and drawing to himself John 4:23

 

[Jimmy Engle]

James.

You need to learn theology and systematic theology before you begin to teach doctrine.

You are entitled to love tongues or hate tongues. That is your personal choice . Your personal choice benefits or harms only you.

But if you are planning to influence others , or teach others, you must line up all your ducks in a row.

At this point your ducks do not line up.

Neither do the ducks you copied and pasted.

Be careful that you do not become that which you preach against.

Best regards in your studies.

Martin.

I'm not trying to teach or influence anyone. I'm just sharing something I came across that has many good truths to it. Another person asked me my opinion so I gave it....
Could you please show me where I am wrong so I can learn off of my mistakes? That would help me much better than just telling me that I am flawed and make indications that you have more knowledge than me.
It's like telling someone they are sinful without showing them in what way they have sinned....it's not helpful to either of us.
I'm not boasting in myself...I know my understanding is flawed...and there will never come a point in this life where I can boast in what I have learned....everyone should carry that attitude

The way I see it, the charismatics idea of tongues is wrong and it's not the true tongues of Paul's day. Whether someone agrees or disagrees...it will not effect salvation.
Now if you were to go around telling people that they need to speak tongues as a sing of receiving some baptism of the holy spirit...now that is a problem that needs to be dealt with...

I know that when it comes to spiritual gifts...it is a very controversial subject. Hammerstone made a good point by mentioning that. It seem that every time I post something...no matter what the subject...I always have to defend myself.
This is not the debate section. I found the list of scripture in regards to tongues and healing to be mostly true so I felt I would share it for other to read and agree or disagree. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
I'm not here to debate or argue about this....
Oh and Martin...I'm not just talking to you...this goes for everyone...if I feel like debating on this I would have put it in that section....I am not here to debate every little post I make. I am here to fellowship and spread truth...that is all

 

[fivesense]

I'm not trying to teach or influence anyone. I'm just sharing something I came across that has many good truths to it. Another person asked me my opinion so I gave it....
Could you please show me where I am wrong so I can learn off of my mistakes? That would help me much better than just telling me that I am flawed and make indications that you have more knowledge than me.
It's like telling someone they are sinful without showing them in what way they have sinned....it's not helpful to either of us.
I'm not boasting in myself...I know my understanding is flawed...and there will never come a point in this life where I can boast in what I have learned....everyone should carry that attitude

The way I see it, the charismatics idea of tongues is wrong and it's not the true tongues of Paul's day. Whether someone agrees or disagrees...it will not effect salvation.
Now if you were to go around telling people that they need to speak tongues as a sing of receiving some baptism of the holy spirit...now that is a problem that needs to be dealt with...

I know that when it comes to spiritual gifts...it is a very controversial subject. Hammerstone made a good point by mentioning that. It seem that every time I post something...no matter what the subject...I always have to defend myself.
This is not the debate section. I found the list of scripture in regards to tongues and healing to be mostly true so I felt I would share it for other to read and agree or disagree. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
I'm not here to debate or argue about this....
Oh and Martin...I'm not just talking to you...this goes for everyone...if I feel like debating on this I would have put it in that section....I am not here to debate every little post I make. I am here to fellowship and spread truth...that is all

I will comply with your wishes James, since you have made it clear that it is truth you are seeking, not debate. It may be difficult at times to arrive there with some of us, because we have been taught many things contrary to what you put forth, therefore we kneejerk into the subject out of a need to maintain our own opinion. May God's grace allow us to delve into controversy with the aim to recover or discover the mind of God.

fivesense

 

[jiggyfly]

in Hebrews 2:1-4 we are reminded to pay close attention to the teachings of the apostles which began with Jesus and was confirmed by God thru signs/gifts and various powerful works in order to make the christians firm believers. So the purpose was to 'establish' the christian chruch. That was well and trully accomplished back in the first century.

Its for that reason that the gifts were said to eventually 'cease' 1 Corinthians 13:8,9,10 They had served their purpose in establishing the true religion and those whom God was identifying himself with. The millions of believers today are a result of the first century congregation so we could say that God was quite successful.

Now in answer to your question 'who would benefit most from these gifts ceasing' I can tell you that it benefits God the most. the reason I say that is because God wants people to worship him out of 'faith' not becaues they have been compelled to believe in him. John 4:23-24 says that God wants people who worship in 'spirit' and 'truth'

this means that our worship must go deeper than the things which are seen. God is a spirit, he wants us to worship him in the manner of the spirit, the spirit is unseen therefore the best sort of faith is based on things unseen. That why Jesus told thomas "happy are those who have not seen and yet believe"

I agree with you about going deeper and that God is a Spirit so what better way than by way of the HolySpirit and his spiritual gifts given tho the body of Christ. Surely you put that above our carnal thinking and understanding.


But as far as your interpretation of what is said in 1Cor. 13:8-10 you are way off. There is no mention that they have already ceased, if that were so when exactly did they cease? What do you think "perfect" is referring to?

Also, our faith must be based on 'truth'....this is refering to knowlege. We need accurate knowledge as Jesus said at John 17:3
in order to recieve everlasting life.

So are you suggesting that those who believe the gifts are still present base their faith on a lie?
I disagree that is not what Jesus said, you are misunderstanding this scripture, the Greek word ginōskō is used here used here.

So, who benefits when gifts cease? God does for the reason that the people who come to worship him do so out of true faith, these are the sorts of people that God is looking for and drawing to himself John 4:23

I think thats is plain ludicrous Pegg.

 

[brionne]

I agree with you about going deeper and that God is a Spirit so what better way than by way of the HolySpirit and his spiritual gifts given tho the body of Christ. Surely you put that above our carnal thinking and understanding.

what makes you think that spiritual understanding is only 'carnal'? Do you not believe that the holy spirit is capable of helping christians to understand the word of God today? If you look again at Pauls words, he put understanding, teaching, prophecying ABOVE speaking in tongues. Also, Peter applied the prophecy of Joel to the event at Pentecost 33ce

Acts 2:16-21 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy..."

Spiritual gifts were needed in the past in order to convince people that God was with the Christians and in fulfillement of the above prophecy. Have a look at Acts 2:5,6,7 The tongues being spoken were foreign languages for the purpose of reaching foreign nations with the message of God.

5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal‧i‧le′ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par′thi‧ans and Medes and E′lam‧ites, and the inhabitants of Mes‧o‧po‧ta′mi‧a, and Ju‧de′a and Cap‧pa‧do′ci‧a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg′i‧a and Pam‧phyl′i‧a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y‧a, which is toward Cy‧re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.”

The tongues of the first century are nothing like what goes on today. No one understands whats being said and the people speaking in tongues today go into some weird trance with their body convulsing or doing some other strange thing. God has no use for such strange displays...he had use of the first century tongues because they were preaching the word in a foreign language. Cant you see the difference?

But as far as your interpretation of what is said in 1Cor. 13:8-10 you are way off. There is no mention that they have already ceased, if that were so when exactly did they cease? What do you think "perfect" is referring to?

In relation to the another 'gift of the spirit', tongues was of least importance according to Paul in 1 Coritinthians 1-13 He actually says that the most important gift is Love...the surpassing way. 1 Coritinthians 12:31 1 Corinthians 13:1,2,3 
This is in harmony with what Jesus told his diciples....he said people would recognize his diciples by the love they showed.
John 13:34-35
“By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

So love is the identifying mark of a true christian, not tongues, not prophecying, not raising the dead....just love. The only reason why this could be so is because the miraculous gifts were not going to be around forever as Paul said...they would cease and it seems that they ceased after the deaths of the apostles. The accounts of gifts being performed in the bible were always in the company of the apostles so it would seem that logically, after the deaths of the apostles, the gifts ceased back then. Its also apparent that by Jesus words at Matt. 7:21-23, that gifts were not the means of identifying the true christians for he said "i never knew you" and these are the words for christians living in the 'last days' which is our time today.



Let me ask you this, What message from God do we need today that Jesus Christ and the apostles did not supply for us? Are the tongues that you experience giving you any new information that you could share with us?

So are you suggesting that those who believe the gifts are still present base their faith on a lie?

All i'm saying is that there is a better way to attain faith then on the things we can see. If faith is based on a visible thing, what happens to that faith if the visible thing goes away? Will the person continue to have faith? Perhaps not.
Whereas if the persons faith is based on knowledge and understanding, that is something that will always be with them and they will not be easily shaken from their faith because it is a faith based on reason and logic.


With regard to tongues, I dont believe they are gifts from God...I beleive Pauls words that the gifts will cease...I also believe Jesus words that the way to identify true christianity is by the love manifest among the believers...Love is the greatest gift of the s its holy spirit for it uniteworshipers and nothing can break it. 1 Corinthians 13:13

I disagree that is not what Jesus said, you are misunderstanding this scripture, the Greek word ginōskō is used here used here.
I think thats is plain ludicrous Pegg.

The term used at John 17:3 is hi′na gi‧no′sko‧si se In greek it means to 'know' someone. In hebrew the same expression is used 'to know' someone, and the hebrew word means that one has 'intimate knowlege' of that person gained thru observance, by experience or by instruction depending on the context of course. So when Jesus said "that they may know you" he meant that his diciples would need to come to 'know' God thru observance, experience and/or instruction.

An example of what the term means in hebrew can be seen in what God said about Abraham. He said that he ‘knew’ (ya‧dha) Abraham not simply in the sense that he was aware that Abraham existed but, rather, that He had become well acquainted with Abraham and knew him intimately enough to know that Abraham would be faithful and loyal. Another example is with regard to a husband and wife. The same term is used in regard to sexual relations between a husband and wife...the husband is said to come to 'know' his wife...its a very intimate sort of knowlege, not something you get simply by sitting back and doing nothing.


the only way we can come to know God intimately is thru knowlege and we need to take in this knowlege to become aquainted with him. We cant sit back and wait for knowlege to come to us, we must go and get it.

 

[jiggyfly]

what makes you think that spiritual understanding is only 'carnal'? Do you not believe that the holy spirit is capable of helping christians to understand the word of God today? If you look again at Pauls words, he put understanding, teaching, prophecying ABOVE speaking in tongues. Also, Peter applied the prophecy of Joel to the event at Pentecost 33ce

Acts 2:16-21 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy..."

Spiritual gifts were needed in the past in order to convince people that God was with the Christians and in fulfillement of the above prophecy. Have a look at Acts 2:5,6,7 The tongues being spoken were foreign languages for the purpose of reaching foreign nations with the message of God.

5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal‧i‧le′ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par′thi‧ans and Medes and E′lam‧ites, and the inhabitants of Mes‧o‧po‧ta′mi‧a, and Ju‧de′a and Cap‧pa‧do′ci‧a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg′i‧a and Pam‧phyl′i‧a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y‧a, which is toward Cy‧re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.”

The tongues of the first century are nothing like what goes on today. No one understands whats being said and the people speaking in tongues today go into some weird trance with their body convulsing or doing some other strange thing. God has no use for such strange displays...he had use of the first century tongues because they were preaching the word in a foreign language. Cant you see the difference?





In relation to the another 'gift of the spirit', tongues was of least importance according to Paul in 1 Coritinthians 1-13 He actually says that the most important gift is Love...the surpassing way. 1 Coritinthians 12:31 1 Corinthians 13:1,2,3 
This is in harmony with what Jesus told his diciples....he said people would recognize his diciples by the love they showed.
John 13:34-35
“By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

So love is the identifying mark of a true christian, not tongues, not prophecying, not raising the dead....just love. The only reason why this could be so is because the miraculous gifts were not going to be around forever as Paul said...they would cease and it seems that they ceased after the deaths of the apostles. The accounts of gifts being performed in the bible were always in the company of the apostles so it would seem that logically, after the deaths of the apostles, the gifts ceased back then. Its also apparent that by Jesus words at Matt. 7:21-23, that gifts were not the means of identifying the true christians for he said "i never knew you" and these are the words for christians living in the 'last days' which is our time today.



Let me ask you this, What message from God do we need today that Jesus Christ and the apostles did not supply for us? Are the tongues that you experience giving you any new information that you could share with us?




All i'm saying is that there is a better way to attain faith then on the things we can see. If faith is based on a visible thing, what happens to that faith if the visible thing goes away? Will the person continue to have faith? Perhaps not.
Whereas if the persons faith is based on knowledge and understanding, that is something that will always be with them and they will not be easily shaken from their faith because it is a faith based on reason and logic.


With regard to tongues, I dont believe they are gifts from God...I beleive Pauls words that the gifts will cease...I also believe Jesus words that the way to identify true christianity is by the love manifest among the believers...Love is the greatest gift of the s its holy spirit for it uniteworshipers and nothing can break it. 1 Corinthians 13:13



The term used at John 17:3 is hi′na gi‧no′sko‧si se In greek it means to 'know' someone. In hebrew the same expression is used 'to know' someone, and the hebrew word means that one has 'intimate knowlege' of that person gained thru observance, by experience or by instruction depending on the context of course. So when Jesus said "that they may know you" he meant that his diciples would need to come to 'know' God thru observance, experience and/or instruction.

An example of what the term means in hebrew can be seen in what God said about Abraham. He said that he ‘knew’ (ya‧dha) Abraham not simply in the sense that he was aware that Abraham existed but, rather, that He had become well acquainted with Abraham and knew him intimately enough to know that Abraham would be faithful and loyal. Another example is with regard to a husband and wife. The same term is used in regard to sexual relations between a husband and wife...the husband is said to come to 'know' his wife...its a very intimate sort of knowlege, not something you get simply by sitting back and doing nothing.


the only way we can come to know God intimately is thru knowlege and we need to take in this knowlege to become aquainted with him. We cant sit back and wait for knowlege to come to us, we must go and get it.

Pegg it seems were going in circles here. The account in acts is not the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues it is the spiritual gift of words of knowledge. Why do you seem to ignore or at least avoid what Paul said in Cor. 14:2 and down through the chapter?

Have you ever spoke in tongues, have you experienced any of the spiritual gifts operating through you?

The tongues of the first century are nothing like what goes on today. No one understands whats being said and the people speaking in tongues today go into some weird trance with their body convulsing or doing some other strange thing. God has no use for such strange displays...he had use of the first century tongues because they were preaching the word in a foreign language. Cant you see the difference?

How many times have you personally witnessed someone speaking in tongues Pegg?

I speak in tongues but I don't go into some trance and start convulsing. I pray in the Spirit and speak in tongues daily. Back when I used to participate in religious liturgy I have attended services that were as you say strange and I am not saying that it was HolySpirit but I have also been to many of the baptist meetings that while they were not having convulsions they were not worshiping in spirit either. So I have been to all kinds and care for none of it, all of it is simply carnal.


One last thing Pegg I agree with you when you say that love is the way to spiritual maturity and an intimate relationship with Father but knowledge isn't. I recommend you do a study and look at the different Greek words that were all translated by KJV as knowledge and see the differences.

As in the other thread I see that there is no benefit in continuing to post the same scriptures and opinions. God bless you and us all with truth and spiritual understanding.

 

[Jimmy Engle]

1. The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).

2. The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam. 10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).

3. The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38; 16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).

4. The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).

5. According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).

6. These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).

7. These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12 and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.

8. Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).

9. The Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).

10. The Bible speaks of various spiritual gifts to believers, but tongues and healing are never emphasized more than the other gifts (1 Cor. 12:4-11).

11. The gifts of tongues and healing were not considered the best gifts (1 Cor. 12:28-31).

12. The gift of healing was a sign (Mar. 16:17-18; Exo. 4:6-8; 2 Kgs. 20:8-9).

13. It is not God's will for all Christians to be healed (2 Cor. 12:5-10).

14. The apostle Paul could not heal himself (2 Cor. 12:5-10).

15. Near the end of his ministry, Paul could not heal Trophimus (2 Tim. 4:20).

16. Instead of healing Timothy, Paul gave him medical advice (1 Tim. 5:23).

17. Contrary to the modern faith healers, "love gifts" and "faith offerings" were not a part of the healing ministries of the disciples (Mat. 10:8-9).

18. A Christian who hasn't confessed his sins and repented of them has no business expecting God to heal him of anything (Psa. 6:1-4; 41:4; 2 Chr. 7:14; Hos. 5:10-13; 1 Cor. 11:29-32; Jas. 5:14-16; 1 Jhn. 1:7-10).

19. If modern faith healers really have the gift of healing, then they should prove their ministry by visiting hospitals and nursing homes and healing the sick, rather than writing books, holding healing meetings, and begging for money on television (2 Tim. 4:5; Mat. 10:8-16; 1 Tim. 6:5-10).

20. Satan has the power to heal and this will cause millions to be led astray in the coming Tribulation Period (Rev. 13:1-4, 12).

21. The gift of tongues was given as a sign (Mar. 16:17; 1 Cor. 14:22).

22. The gift of tongues was the supernatural ability of some Christians to speak in foreign languages in the presence of unbelieving Jews (Acts 2:7-11).

23. God has never caused or commanded Christians to speak in unknown tongues (Mar. 16:17; Acts 2:4; 1 Cor. 12:10; 1 Cor. 14).

24. The Bible never says once that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

25. There is no baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1 Corinthians 14.

26. Paul said that all true Christians were baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 12:13), and all true Christians were sealed with the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30), but all Christians did not speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:29-31).

27. The Bible never says that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a second Christian experience or blessing.

28. The baptism of fire is the condemnation of the wicked in Hell (Mat. 3:11-12), not being "on fire for the Lord."

29. Acts 2:3 speaks of "cloven tongues LIKE AS of fire," but the Book of Acts says nothing at all about tongues of fire or a baptism of fire.

30. If a person does not have the spirit of Christ, he has no business waiting for the baptism of the Holy Ghost, because he doesn't even belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9).

31. Pentecost was never a religious movement, or a religious experience. It was a Jewish feast day which always occurred fifty days after the Passover (Lev. 23:15-22 ).

32. Jesus said that when the Holy Ghost came He (the Holy Ghost) would not speak of Himself, because He would glorify Christ (Jhn. 16:13-14).

33. No Christian in the Bible is ever told to pray, preach, sing, or praise God in tongues.

34. The disciples received the Holy Ghost in John 20:22, but they did not speak in tongues when this happened.

35. The filling of the Spirit in Acts 4:31 and Eph. 5:18-20 does not include speaking in tongues.

36. When speaking of spiritual gifts in Ephesians 4:8-12, Paul does not mention tongues.

37. There were only three cases in the Book of Acts where people spoke in tongues (not unknown tongues), and these tongues were a sign to the Jews each time, because the Jews require a sign (Acts 2:1-11; 10:44-46; 19:6-8; 1 Cor. 1:22; 14:22).

38. The former and latter rain of Joel 2 has nothing to do with Acts 2 or the modern-day Charismatic Movement, because the rain of Joel 2 is literal wet rain from the sky in Israel (Joel 2:1-31).

39. Tongues are not even mentioned in the list of spiritual gifts in Romans 12:6-8.

40. Although tongues (not unknown tongues) were permitted in 1 Corinthians 14 (because there was a Jewish synagogue in Corinth - Acts 18:1-4), they were not encouraged because tongues did not edify the church (1 Cor. 14:4-5, 26).

41. It is better to speak five words clearly than ten thousand with an unknown tongue (1 Cor. 14:19).

42. No more than three people were allowed to speak in tongues in the church assembly, and then only one could speak at a time (1 Cor. 14:27).

43. No one was permitted to speak in tongues in the church without an interpreter (1 Cor. 14:27-28).

44. Women were not allowed to speak in tongues in the church (1 Cor. 14:34-35).

45. Those who did speak in tongues (foreign languages) had power over their own spirit (1 Cor. 14:32).

46. A religious man who doesn't bridle his tongue is deceived and he has a vain religion (Jas. 1:26).

47. Many "seducing spirits" are in the world and it is every Christian's duty to "try" these spirits (1 Tim. 4:1; I Jhn. 4:1; Rev. 2:2).

48. The word of God is the standard by which we are to judge all doctrines (Isa. 8:20; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

49. He that is spiritual judges all things (1 Cor. 2:15).

50. Teaching the Scriptural Truth about signs, healing, and tongues is not a matter of being mean, prejudiced, or intolerant. It is simply a matter of obeying the command to RIGHTLY DIVIDE God's word (2 Tim. 2:15).

http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/tongues.html

I would like to add to this list with my own personal observation in regards to tongues....

21. Those who pray or edify themselves using tongues contradict scripture (1 Cor. 14:22)

 

[brionne]

As in the other thread I see that there is no benefit in continuing to post the same scriptures and opinions. God bless you and us all with truth and spiritual understanding.

I agree

So rather then debate the legitimacy of talking in tongues, perhaps you can help us understand the phenonemon better by answering my questions

What message from God do we need today that Jesus Christ and the apostles did not supply for us?

And what new spiritual information could share with us that we dont already have?

 

[jiggyfly]

I agree

So rather then debate the legitimacy of talking in tongues, perhaps you can help us understand the phenonemon better by answering my questions

What message from God do we need today that Jesus Christ and the apostles did not supply for us?

And what new spiritual information could share with us that we dont already have?

For me it's really about much, much more than having knowledge or understanding of a message, any message, it's about experiencing the reality of Christ. Paul used the Greek word epignōsis, it's experiential knowledge. It is relating to Christ directly.

As far as sharing any new spiritual information goes, your exactly right, you seem to believe that you already know everything about God that can be learned because you have a bible. So there's absolutely nothing I can offer you. But I can challenge others to move past what some have said is the standard when it comes to growing spiritually and relating to God directly. It is by the power of HolySpirit. So if you see me respond to your posts in the future it is not in an attempt to change or adjust your thinking but rather the other readers.