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6000 years or millions of years ?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by betchevy, Apr 24, 2007.

  1. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    The scientist have proven the earth and the dinosaurs bones are millions of years old, what does the Bible say ... ?
     
  2. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    We could just copy our entire conversation here from the shoutbox.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    2Peter 3:5Tells of a world destroyed /3:6 perished(this is not Noahs flood as the world was never destroyed nor perish in the flood)3:7 Tells of this earth and this heaven (this current age/world)2 Peter3:5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 3:6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 3:7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.]Noahs flood was not hidden.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  5. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    To understand the Word you must read it in the original languages , in order to do that you ust use a KJV and a Strong's Concordance.. I also like have a Massarah the text the world was translated from in the Hebrew, I love to read in Hebrew, though I do not understand it , I can use the translation to correlate from the KJV...to see what has been left out... To understand the Word you must read it from beginning to end the whole thing verse by verse and chapter by chapter, book by book... again going back to original language to get to the truth.....When you do this you will see the true Word no the fiction made up by the religionists of the world... the jewish preists, the scholors of King James or the newer one who never ever read the orginal meanings... and are far from what the true word says... an example... to start....The name "Genesis" is not even a Hebrew word, but a Greek rendition out of the Septuagint, which is part of the Torah. The original Hebrew name of this book was "The BeginningsGenesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took placeProverbs 8:23; "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." This is stating that wisdom was with God, and He possessed me.Proverbs 8:24; "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water." Before there was any need of an abyss, or pit, and the water to fill them, God's wisdom was there.Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul." The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961] Heres a brief start check me out in the Strongs the numbers are there for you... if you really want truth ask God to help you find it . Its much more important than any thing else, for without God's help you will never understand the whole truth of the Word.
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    To add a tip when you check out Bulinger he explains Heaven used in the plural form denotes all the universe heavens and earth the planets the all. used in the singular it refers to the heaven above only
     
  7. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    It is incredibly important that when one speaks of the word of God that they do so in context, and not in drawing out single verses to make a point that the context in which that verse was written does not support. I will show here, in this brief commentary on chapter 3 of 2 Peter, that this chapter does not support a Time Gap Theory, as is supposed here on the boards. The question must be: What does the Word of God say? For the Word of God is our final authority, and such is intended by God to be so. And if such is intended by God, then the Word of God can be understood, but the key to understanding the Word of God is simple: Context. For this reason, we shall be looking at not just the few verses referenced in the post above, but rather the entire Chapter, as the point made in this chapter is singular, as such shall be shown.
    1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
    It is here that Peter gives his reason for writing this second epistle to those Christians who were dispersed after the burning of Rome. His purpose here noted in Chapter 3 is this: That they may remember the words spoken of by the prophets concerning the Day of the Lord, found in such books as Isaiah, Micah, Obadiah, etc, and the hope that is ours in the return of our King to establish His Kingdom on the earth for the literal thousand year reign, and for eternity afterwards, when the New Heavens and New Earth will be made. The Day of The Lord (also meaning judgment for those who choose to reject Christ as their Savior) is also a subject brought up by the apostles, referring to the 7 years of tribulation and the Great White Throne. And, of course, we read of scoffers (and we see them in our days, as they were present in the day of Peter’s epistle) who are living according to the lust of the flesh, and mocking us saying, “Where is this King of yours? Where is this Day of Judgment?” And they think themselves proper in mocking us, for how many generations have passed, even since the day of Peter, and still Christ as not returned to establish His Kingdom! This is the purpose of this chapter: To bring to mind that God is not lacking in His ability, and He shall bring about the Day of the Lord, even though it seems such a long time since the days of the prophets who were exhorting those around them that judgment is coming.
    5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    I assume that this is where you make your first argument that there must have been a judgment before the creation of Adam in which the world was destroyed because of the rebellion of the Angels. I will say this: We read nowhere else of a judgment of the angles resulting in a world wide flood, but we do read of a judgment in which, yes, the world was destroyed by water for the judgment of the wickedness of man, and we find that in Genesis chapter 9 with Noah’s flood. Let’s take a look at some of the verses there, please read the whole passage:
    8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9 “And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. 11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12 And God said: “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth. 14 It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud; 15 and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17 And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”
    Note especially that God said that He would not destroy the earth with a flood again in verse 11. Thus, we read of a destruction of the earth in scripture, and we have every reason to believe that this is that destruction that Peter is speaking of in 2 Peter. Within the context of Scripture as a whole, we must accept that this is the destruction that Peter is speaking of, for there is no mention of a destruction by flooding anywhere else on a world-wide scale. He goes on to mention that the earth in its present state is reserved for world-wide destruction by fire.
    8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
    This is not in reference to creation, which is what I was trying to say last night in our shoutbox conversation. This is in reference, rather, to the Judgment of the Lord. While it may seem to us that God is slacking on His promise to bring about the Day of The Lord, because of the length of time that we have had to wait thus far (for literally thousands of years so far), and we, who believe, eagerly wait for it, but those who do not believe scoff and say, “Where is it?” Peter makes mention here that to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day to say that God is not in a hurry to get this done, and He has not forgotten about His promised judgment of the world for its wickedness. Peter goes on to give the reason for God’s forbearance: Is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God is giving us time before His Day of the Lord to repent! And what does the world do with it? They scoff, and continue on in their lusts. This is not in reference to the time it took to create the world. Notice, interestingly enough, that Peter does not say, “Millions of Years” here.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
    Again, reference to the coming Judgment. God will judge this present world for its sinfulness. However, why do we look forward to it? Because of the last portion of the above: The New Heavens and New Earths… and how beautiful in a perfect sinless state such will be!
    14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
    What should our response be to this coming Day of the Lord? We ought to live unspotted lives, blameless lives, and be found in peace (with Him and one another). Again, why should the patience of God for this Judgment be desirable? It allows those who are presently rejecting Him, yet one more chance to believe in Him. He also mentions that not everyone understands what they teach concerning the Judgment, and they try to make sense of it by twisting it into something that either makes more sense to them, or sounds more appealing. This they not only do with this subject, but with the rest of scripture.
    17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
    And Peter’s final exhortation to remain steadfast in the Word of the Lord, and not to be deceived with the error of the wicked, and to continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Savior. And we too echo, “To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.I have shown in my post here 1) The context of 2 Peter 3 is not of creation, but of Judgment. 2) The Judgment by Flood mentioned here is to be seen as referencing the flood of Noah, which was Judgment on the world for their sinfulness. We have no reason to believe that Peter was refering to a supposed judgment of the angels. 3) That Thousands of Years can be taken literally - those present at that time have waited for so long, and we have waited literally for thousands of years for the coming of the Lord - note: He does not say, "Millions". This passage
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  9. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Peter was written to the Christians... We are not debating to whom it was written. Let us not get sidetracked in this thread so soon, otherwise, this is pointless.
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Yes exactly he is talking of Judgement he is disclosing the judgement from the beginning before this earth age the judgement of the first earth agethe present age this is clear in the manuscripts that's why I gave the first version of the verse because it more closely follows the original manuscripts.common sense it required here think on it it takes nothing from Gods word to except this for a moment and it explains much. the predestination of the elect who stood with God in the first age,Why Satan attacked Adam and Eve from the beginning, science and much more. you can find second witness in manuscripts third witness in apocrypha and cannon. read 2 Peter at link above with open mind. then pray upon it.remember its called a living book because we are always learning from it.
     
  11. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Jeremiah 4:22 "For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."sottish" in the Hebrew "stupid"[Strongs #5530, Cakal, "to play the fool.."He is disappointed in His people because of their foolishness, and stupidity in listening and being deceived. You had better look back at the first Earth Age. Satan rebelled and I destroyed the entire earth age God is reminding us that His people have been foolish, and always listened to men, and their foolish traditions. They prefer not to listen to God's Word, but the foolish doctrines of men's traditions.Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."God is telling us here exactly what He did to the earth at one time. This was in the first earth age. The earth spoken of here, is the "erets" as given in the Hebrew text. In Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 776. from Genesis 1:2, "tohu va bohu" which means, "without form and void" "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."God said that He did not create the earth a waste land and void, it became that way when Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."NO MAN...NO BIRDS this is not Noah's flood...Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."God was angry with Satan this time and he tore down every thing in the whole age that was on the earth...Jeremiah 4:27 "For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."He did not destroy the souls who rebelled, but the land they dwelt in was made desolate....God continues through Jeremiah to speak of the end of this earth age... Our Nebuhannezar is just over the hill and again God will scourge the earth... He will rid it of the rudiments, the evil.Jeremiah 4:28 "For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
     
  12. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    My argument stands where it is, and I have clearly shown that this chapter is referring to the flood of Noah's day, not some supposed judgment of the angels. We did not exist before in "spiritual bodies". I would so much like to see your scriptural reference for this, Kriss, thesuperjag, and Bet.
     
  13. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Bet, I shall reply to your post when I can properly study through the passage that you have referred to. Tonight, I am able and willing to discuss 2 Peter 3 intelligently. If you have any questions concerning that, please let me know.
     
  14. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    II Peter 3:1 "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance;"Peter is telling these people that he is going to stir their minds up into remembering things that have happened in the past, and the things that you should know and understand II Peter 3:2 "That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:"The Jews were those who knew the prophets in the past not the Greeks they could not be remembering what they never knewSo yes we do have to establish the truth of who this is written to.Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"The word "apostle" means "one sent forth", and it was Jesus Christ that sent Peter forth to preach the word of God. The phrase "to the strangers scattered throughout" is Peter's mission to take the Word of God to the dispersal, those of the ten tribes of the house of Israel that were dispersed and scattered throughout the world. Peter 1:2 "Elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."So when was this time that God knew the elect? It was before this time..if he knew us ... we existed...So there in Peter is proof... If you are unable to look at the orignal language you will not see what God toel the saints to write, you must look to the Greek and the Hebrew in order to see clearly ... you cannot depend on the writings of religious men.
     
  15. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Betchevy, I reject the notion that we cannot understand the Word of God without going to the original languages. I love going to the Greek and the Hebrew, but what I hold in my hands when I hold a modern translation is just as much the Word of God. But this is not the topic of discussion. I thought to refute this as you had made mention of it before my initial post in this thread. Please, let us stay on topic, otherwise this is pointless, and I do not wish to waste my time.
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    We have told you what the original hebrew says given you links to read for self told you what the concordence says given you 2nd and 3rd wittness if you can not see it do not wish to search for his truth then you believe what men have taught you to believe. If God has not given you eyes to see or ears to hear.or desire to learn his knowledge. there is no point arguing.
     
  17. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    The Jews were those who knew the prophets in the past not the Greeks they could not be remembering what they never knewSo yes we do have to establish the truth of who this is written to.
    Peter is writing to the elect, those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, those who are Christians, as you make mention:
    Peter 1:2 "Elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
    Peter was not writing to the Jews, he was writing to Christians, to believers.
    So when was this time that God knew the elect? It was before this time..if he knew us ... we existed...
    God, omniscient, knew that He would choose us, and knew who we would be and that we would be, but we were not then. In the beginning was the Word, not us. God created the first man on day six of creation, we are His creation.
    So there in Peter is proof... If you are unable to look at the orignal language you will not see what God toel the saints to write, you must look to the Greek and the Hebrew in order to see clearly ... you cannot depend on the writings of religious men.
    By "religious men" you mean translations? Tell me, who do you think put together the KJV? Was it not religious men? Any compilation of Greek Texts is only a shadow of the originals. The originals are not even in existence today. I agree that it is helpful to go to the Greek, but in order to understand the Word of God, it is not necessary. I can, for instance, understand John 3:16-18 without the Greek, and I believe that what I understand is accurately the Word of God.
     
  18. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    If God has not given you eyes to see or ears to hear.or desire to learn his knowledge. there is no point arguing.
    You mean, if I am not willing to subscribe to the additional revelation to the Word of God that you have claimed to have receive either by your superior understanding of the word of God or that of others who have written articles that have no biblical backing. Where is it taught in the Word of God that we have existed before the sixth day of Creation? Predestination is not evidence of this. We are not told anywhere in scripture that we are predestined because we chose not to rebel along with the angels. Hell was not made for us, it was made for the angels alone, but because man has rejected God, he too shall go there. You teach things that are not supported in the Word of God. It is said that Satan and the angels have rebelled (and note, it makes no mention of a previous earth age), not that Man has rebelled along with them. I have read the Bible from cover to cover, understanding what I read, and I tell you, there is no such teaching.
     
  19. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    She means Jeremiah 4:22 God foretold of the day when me would not take the time to know the truth but listen to mens words instead of Gods truth ...
     
  20. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Man aliveSo do tell, this teaching, which I have found no where else, that we were in existence and are saved because we did not rebell, thus being predestined because God "forknew us"... I have a few questions. The Bible tells us that God forknew us before the foundation of the world. Does this mean that we were in existence before the world (no matter what age) came into existence? How does this doctrine of your predestination line up with a grace-based salvation? It is no longer grace, but works if we are saved because of what we have done! I say this doctrine of your predestination is terribly in error! For we are no longer saved because of what God alone has and could do, but because of what we have done in choosing to remain faithful to Him. We are saved for our own merit, not for grace. (Which, by the ways, flies in the face of scripture!) What of: There is none who seeks God: Romans 3? Please, show me how these holes can be patched in your higher understanding of scripture. (Last post for the night, and for the day [Wednesday] going home and day off)
     
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