A certain verse from Job I don't understand...

[laid renard]

It's the one where Job says, " The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

For the longest time I believed that to be true.

Then I heard a pastor on television say that when Job said that, he was in the wrong. And that God would not give you something only to take it back afterwards, and that it is satan's job to steal what we have. That made sense to me, so I changed my thought about that verse. I mean, Job was after all , greatly stressed at the time.

But sometimes I think, wait a minute-- God took back the privileges He gave Adam and Eve due to their disobedience.

So I don't know if I lose something if it is God's doing or the enemy's.

Now no one is perfect, we all sin, so that means we should never expect anything from God ?

Has anyone here ever heard of the teaching that Job was having an incorrect line of thinking when he made that statement ?


Also, when God removed His hand of protection from Job so satan could take what was Job's, isn't that the same as God taking it ? So I am starting to go back to my original thinking that God does indeed take away.


On a side note, and this could be answered quickly I know, for so many of you hear are so learned :) , but why did God feel the need to prove anything to satan anyway ? What does He care what satan thinks ?


Thanx in advance and God bless you all. B)

 

[JoJoRoss]

Hi Laid,

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe the The Word of God or the word of man?
I please ask you to believe in the God breathed scriptures and not believe in man. “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away” is true. What that pastor on television said is not. If we look at the book of Job God let Satan do these things to Job:

Job 1:12-The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”.

For what purpose?:

Job 42:1-2-Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

See? God had Satan do what he did to Job so he can show Job and all of us that He does all things and his purpose cannot be thwarted. Even the most horrid of things he did to Job were to show us that Gods Will will be done. I think the dilemma you are having is you believe us mortals have FREE will. What does scripture say of FREE will?:

Romans 9:14-17- What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God FORBID.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone. What God was doing was SHOWING His amazing sovereignty to bring us sinners back to Him:

Therefore I (Job) despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:6)
Then from there: the Lord restored his (Job) fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. (Job 42:10).

How truly magnificent when we know no matter what happens to us, God does ALL THINGS for HIS PURPOSE. What is GODS purpose for the world?:

1 Tim 2:4- Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Gods Peace,
[SIZE=medium]Jordan[/SIZE]

 

[clark thompson]

While satan did cause trouble for Job to lose things it was God that allowed Job to lose these things. Job goes past satan because He knows God is in control.

 

[rockytopva]

Welcome to CB JoJo!

 

[laid renard]

Hi Laid,

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe the The Word of God or the word of man?
I please ask you to believe in the God breathed scriptures and not believe in man. “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away” is true. What that pastor on television said is not. If we look at the book of Job God let Satan do these things to Job:

Job 1:12-The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”.

For what purpose?:

Job 42:1-2-Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

See? God had Satan do what he did to Job so he can show Job and all of us that He does all things and his purpose cannot be thwarted. Even the most horrid of things he did to Job were to show us that Gods Will will be done. I think the dilemma you are having is you believe us mortals have FREE will. What does scripture say of FREE will?:

Romans 9:14-17- What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God FORBID.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone. What God was doing was SHOWING His amazing sovereignty to bring us sinners back to Him:

Therefore I (Job) despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:6)
Then from there: the Lord restored his (Job) fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. (Job 42:10).

How truly magnificent when we know no matter what happens to us, God does ALL THINGS for HIS PURPOSE. What is GODS purpose for the world?:

1 Tim 2:4- Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Gods Peace,
[SIZE=medium]Jordan[/SIZE]

Thank you JoJoRoss for your reply. Yes, I believe scripture over man. I just have trouble rightly divining it sometimes. I have reverted back to my original thinking that it is God that takes away and/or allows to be taken away. But I am still having trouble wrapping my brain around why he did that to Job, even though you explained it to me. Perhaps you can try again, if you don't mind. I can be dense.... :)

Yes, I do believe we have free will, cause God did not create little robots programmed to believe in Him. I'm sorry this part I did not understand. What does free will have to do with this question ? :)

You said God was showing His sovereignty to bring sinners back to Him. But wouldn't the point have gotten across better by bringing back a wayward child ? Job was innocent.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I know what God did is right. He's God. I'm just having trouble understanding why innocent Job had to go through so much pain. But I know if I stay on this thread I will eventually understand.

Thank you ! :)

While satan did cause trouble for Job to lose things it was God that allowed Job to lose these things. Job goes past satan because He knows God is in control.

I'm glad He's in control, cause He loves us. This is just one of my least favorite books in the bible.

Thank you for your response. :) :)

 

[JoJoRoss]

Thank you JoJoRoss for your reply. Yes, I believe scripture over man. I just have trouble rightly divining it sometimes. I have reverted back to my original thinking that it is God that takes away and/or allows to be taken away. But I am still having trouble wrapping my brain around why he did that to Job, even though you explained it to me. Perhaps you can try again, if you don't mind. I can be dense.... :)

Yes, I do believe we have free will, cause God did not create little robots programmed to believe in Him. I'm sorry this part I did not understand. What does free will have to do with this question ? :)

You said God was showing His sovereignty to bring sinners back to Him. But wouldn't the point have gotten across better by bringing back a wayward child ? Job was innocent.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I know what God did is right. He's God. I'm just having trouble understanding why innocent Job had to go through so much pain. But I know if I stay on this thread I will eventually understand.

Thank you ! :)

[SIZE=medium]Laid,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]First off, you’re not dense! Praise God you want to know His truth![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I know it is hard to believe that God would let Satan do this to Job, who was so obedient to God. I would have to disagree with you on Jobs innocence. ALL are dead in sins (1 Peter 2:24). (Side note, God is mericiful. I stronly believe children will be judge accordingly).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But what does the scriptures say about believers who obey Christ?:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1 Peter 4:12[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]: Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed[/SIZE].

[SIZE=medium] I strongly believe that the story of Job was to show all who believes in Christ that suffering will come. When that time comes, we have to remember to thank God for our sufferings in His name! This is to bring about His glory to all around us. And like what happen to Job in the end (blessings abound), those too will come to those who suffer for Christ (in this age or the next).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I know that you don’t think God would make us just robots. I struggled with this for a while. But the more scriptures that stated Gods unthwarted Will, the more I had to submit to it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]You are right. We are not robots…we are God’s clay. I came to a point that I couldn’t question Gods Word anymore:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Romans 9:19-21: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this? 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Why? Why does He control everything in our lives? : [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Romans 3:9-12: What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles (ALL mankind) alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]No One does good, not ONE. No one can seek GOD, not one! All are in sin. That is why Gods Will will be done. He must drag us to Him:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]John 6:44-[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]No man can come to me, except the Father[/SIZE] which hath sent me drag (better translation of draw, check the greek) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SIZE=medium]So there you have it from the scriptures. We can’t choose God, He has to choose us. We are dead in our sins. We are covered by Christ’s blood when God chooses us (Romans 8:29). Thank God for his glorious love! [/SIZE]



[SIZE=medium]Recap: God did what he did to Job because he loves him and loves us. He needed to what He did to Job to show us believers that God lets us suffer to bring about His glory. This is probably the hardest thing for Christians to understand. BUT if you really wrestle with this, and see what we are and what God is, it is quite the humbling experience. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]JoJo[/SIZE]

 

[laid renard]

Dear JoJo,


Once again, thanks for your response. I have read what you wrote, and now must meditate on this. It seems like such a hard lesson to learn for me. I seem to be stumbling on it.

I will also do some reading on the net concerning this. I can sense you are explaining your best, but I don't understand still. I think soon the light bulb will flash in my head and it will all fall in place for me.


I will be back tomorrow or so. I hope you (or anyone else who so desires), can be able to shed some more light on this for me. I still can't see..... why.... ???

[SIZE=medium]I know it is hard to believe that God would let Satan do this to Job, who was so obedient to God. I would have to disagree with you on Jobs innocence. ALL are dead in sins (1 Peter 2:24). (Side note, God is mericiful. I stronly believe children will be judge accordingly).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." Job 1:8 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] I strongly believe that the story of Job was to show all who believes in Christ that suffering will come. When that time comes, we have to remember to thank God for our sufferings in His name! This is to bring about His glory to all around us. And like what happen to Job in the end (blessings abound), those too will come to those who suffer for Christ (in this age or the next).[/SIZE]

I can understand rejoicing over having twice as many livestock and all that, but children are irreplaceable. Does it have something to do with the fact that God knew Job's children were saved and that they would see each other again in eternity with our Lord ?

[SIZE=medium]Recap: God did what he did to Job because he loves him and loves us. He needed to what He did to Job to show us believers that God lets us suffer to bring about His glory. [/SIZE]

I've heard that phrase so many times it's hard to see the forest for the trees now. For God to "show His glory" means what exactly ? For us to know His sovereignty and utter dependence on Him ? For us to realize He is in charge ? For us to know He has our best interests at heart ? For us to see His Majesty ? All of these and more ? What exactly is your definition of the phrase ? :)

[SIZE=medium]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]JoJo[/SIZE]

And to you and yours as well. :)

 

[JoJoRoss]

Welcome to CB JoJo!

Thanks rockytopva! Happy to be here!



Hey Laid,

Do not worry if this is not "turning on the light bulb". This is one of God's truth that a majority of Chrisianity have a hard time with. BUT it will not click right away. It will take time to get this truth.

With that said, I will try my best to answer your questions

[SIZE=medium]Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." Job 1:8 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Yes it would seem that Job was blameless and upright. The word they use here for blameless in the Greek is tawn. This literally means complete; usually morally devout. What the Word is saying here is that Job was literally morally devout and complete in his devoutness toward God. This in no way means that Job was blameless (perfect). We can see this throughout scripture that no one is blameless (knew no sin) except Jesus Christ:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]God [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]made him who had no sin to be sin[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]a[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] for us[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (2 Corinth 5:21).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]I can understand rejoicing over having twice as many livestock and all that, but children are irreplaceable. Does it have something to do with the fact that God knew Job's children were saved and that they would see each other again in eternity with our Lord ?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Job was definitely the prime time example on how to praise God in the worst of situations. Please know that I am right there with you, children our irreplaceable (have two of my own). I most likely would not have reacted like Job did when he praised God when he lost everything. BUT that is what we are supposed to do. Obviously a majority of us believers are supposed to do things but we don’t. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Here’s the thing: perspective. If we are Christ’s in this life, no matter what horrible things happen to us, do we not know our end? YES!: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]1 Peter 1:4-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]6[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]And:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2 Corinthians 4:16-18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Jobs children, I believe, will be with God: Matt 18:3-And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]It was all part of God’s plan. God is love. Love never fails. We can trust God will do the right thing for us, no matter how hard it seems at the moment. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I've heard that phrase so many times it's hard to see the forest for the trees now. For God to "show His glory" means what exactly ? For us to know His sovereignty and utter dependence on Him ? For us to realize He is in charge ? For us to know He has our best interests at heart ? For us to see His Majesty ? All of these and more ? What exactly is your definition of the phrase ? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Well I would say yes to all those questions haha. We have to depend on Him, He is in charge, He has our best interests, and we have to see His majesty. See when God is showing His glory to us, it is not like God is like: Ya look what I can do, bow down before me! No. God knows exactly who He is and what He can do. He doesn’t need us to remind him. The only reason why God shows His glory to us is because he wants us to be at peace! God showing his glory to his creation is to assure us that He will never let us go. When we do things to glorify God, what does it do for God? Nothing! What does it do for other believers and unbelievers? EVERYTHING! By God showing His glory to mankind, He is basically letting all of us know that he didn’t forget about us. ALL HIS PROMISES WILL COME TO PAST THROUGH CHRIST IN US FOR HIS GLORY:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2 Corinthians 1:20[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]20 [/SIZE]For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.


[SIZE=medium]This life is such a short time when it comes to what is in store for us in the next life. Let us please remember God’s promises and love. AND let us spread Gods love to others![/SIZE]

And to you and yours as well. :)

Right back at ya again :)

 

[RANDOR]

Laid Renard......................K-pasta dude :)
I know you love Jesus....how have you felt lately since you've stumbled on this new questioning?
Don't worry about if someone can answer this for you.
They probably can't....just get off it.....God takes nothing away that He has brought into your life. Don't worry about Job.
You know darn well who is the details....even in god's word.
Thanks Jordan for trying to explain it.
After I read your question...I to was wondering.......shake it off.
All we know for sure is Jesus saved you and forgave you of your sins. There are many speed bumps in God's word. But I agree with Jordan...don't go any deeper with this......kick satan's foot from the door.
Remember Job's friends.............they didn't know God...........Job was chosen by God......his friends only told Job of the God they thought they knew...so actually Job was more of a witness to them than his friends were to him.
Heck even his wife said...curse God and die.............so she didn't even know God.
I know we want to know everything and make sense of it.....me too :)
Your answer will come my friend...........but maybe not today.........
Oh...and one more thing.............God proved Ha Ha ha to satan............Laid is my servant............and what ever you even attempt to do to Laid. HE WILL NEVER FORSAKE ME. Ya just can't knock down a man of God.
That would be Me and that would be You yEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAA †
RANDOR---------> Radically saved and lovin it :)

 

[DPMartin]

Well you could be mistaken in that God toke from Job what was Job’s because, what was Job’s was first God’s and still was God’s to do with as God pleased. Hence Job’s acknowledgment of the Lord his God’s right, power and privilege.
Job:1:21: And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

　
Also you seem to miss another purpose of all this that happened to Job. God said Job was a righteous man, before Job suffered the losses. What is more valuable the Lord God stating that one is righteous in His sight or all that one has in this world? Note that you now read this relationship that Job and the Lord his God had. Job served the Lord his God, though it may not have been in a traditionally voluntary manner. Also note this statement by Job:

Job:19:23: Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
Job:31:35: Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book.

Interesting that we read this today, thousands of years later, isn’t it?

　
There are many instances where men cause their own folly, and self destruct. But there are many cases of those who trust the Lord God and experience trauma, and destruction through no fault or doings of their own. And then experiences similar circumstances as Job. His so called fried keep giving him the it must be you Job, while yet he suffers the loss of those he cared about and constant pain of the health issues he had. Nice guys, huh? This great book deminstraits that the Lord God declares and no one can change it. And why demonstrate that you ask, Satan already knows who the Lord God is, and how powerful He is. But who do you trust, who is your refuge your high tower so on and so forth is what is taught here. Fulfillment of God’s Word.

Job:1:8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

And the contesting of that statement by Satan was not only for Job’s sake but also for our’s who have the privilege to read it.

 

[JoJoRoss]

Oh...and one more thing.............God proved Ha Ha ha to satan............Laid is my servant............and what ever you even attempt to do to Laid. HE WILL NEVER FORSAKE ME. Ya just can't knock down a man of God.

Amen!

And the contesting of that statement by Satan was not only for Job’s sake but also for our’s who have the privilege to read it.

Amen!

 

[RANDOR]

AMEN JOJO

 

[laid renard]

[SIZE=medium]Yes it would seem that Job was blameless and upright. The word they use here for blameless in the Greek is tawn. This literally means complete; usually morally devout. What the Word is saying here is that Job was literally morally devout and complete in his devoutness toward God. This in no way means that Job was blameless (perfect). We can see this throughout scripture that no one is blameless (knew no sin) except Jesus Christ[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Hi JoJo, [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I know that Job, or anyone else for that matter, is totally without sin. I have always taken this verse to mean exactly what you stated. What makes me stumble with this section is God's promise to answer our prayers when we are obedient, and Job prayed for his family often.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So sometime I wonder if God allowed satan to have his way with Job's family because of the scripture that states what you fear shall come apon you. Job seemed a bit overly concerned about his family and prayed much for them. Maybe that's why God allowed it ?? He let fear enter into his trust for God's protection. [/SIZE]


------

[SIZE=12pt] The only reason why God shows His glory to us is because he wants us to be at peace! God showing his glory to his creation is to assure us that He will never let us go....... When we do things to glorify God, what does it do for God? Nothing! What does it do for other believers and unbelievers? EVERYTHING! By God showing His glory to mankind, He is basically letting all of us know that he didn’t forget about us. ALL HIS PROMISES WILL COME TO PAST THROUGH CHRIST IN US FOR HIS GLORY:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2 Corinthians 1:20[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]20 [/SIZE]For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

[SIZE=medium]This life is such a short time when it comes to what is in store for us in the next life. Let us please remember God’s promises and love. AND let us spread Gods love to others![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now that I can wrap my brain around ! :lol:[/SIZE]
-------

[SIZE=medium]When we do things to glorify God, what does it do for God? Nothing![/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]For the first time I finally disagree with you on something. I think when we glorify Him it puts a smile on His face. :wub: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]-------[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Thank you so much Jojo.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] B) [/SIZE]

I know you love Jesus....how have you felt lately since you've stumbled on this new questioning?


Going through PTSD at the moment, due to events in my life that were brought upon by no fault of my own. Evil and criminal acts, which brought me unspeakable loss. So, yeah, i have been kind of questioing God lately. But I take comfort in the thought that I know deep down inside that He is always right. He saw what happened to me, and while yes, He is a God of compassion and love, He is also a God of justice. It's just the waiting for that justice and restoration that is driving me mad.

-------


Remember Job's friends.............they didn't know God...........Job was chosen by God......his friends only told Job of the God they thought they knew...so actually Job was more of a witness to them than his friends were to him.

Heck even his wife said...curse God and die.............so she didn't even know God.

Yeah, those parts always make me laugh. ^_^

-------


don't go any deeper with this......kick satan's foot from the door.

By that do you mean stop doubting God ? Cause, yeah, I tend to wonder if He is still "working on my case" sometimes.

-------

Ya just can't knock down a man of God.


Woman of God. :)

And that's only cause He's holding me, and satan can't knock down God. No matter how much he's deluded himself he can. B)

-------

Blessings to you my brother ! :)

Well you could be mistaken in that God toke from Job what was Job’s because, what was Job’s was first God’s and still was God’s to do with as God pleased. Hence Job’s acknowledgment of the Lord his God’s right, power and privilege.


All words here have helped me greatly. But none as much as this. Thank you DPMartin. Nothing I own is truly mine. All is God's. Even the fruit of my womb.




May God Bless You.

 

[JoJoRoss]

[SIZE=medium]When we do things to glorify God, what does it do for God? Nothing![/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]For the first time I finally disagree with you on something. I think when we glorify Him it puts a smile on His face. :wub: [/SIZE]

Maybe so...

 

[laid renard]

And it wouldn't be complete without my city......

:)