A Difficult Conversation

[Foreigner]

I am not sure how to handle this.

I have been witnessing to a friend of mine and he is a very sincere and intelligent guy.

No pressure. Random conversations, mostly initiatiated by him.

But he brought up something I could not answer for him offhand.......

He said, "From what I understand, God created all things including the world and man. And as he did that he knew what was going to happen from that moment until the end of time, right?" I agreed.

So he said, "That means that even as he created Adam, he knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and bring ruin on all mankind, right?" I agreed.

His reply was, "So God knew, even as he blew life into Adam that the result was going to be the fall of all mankind and the necessity of having his son die on the cross to pay the penalty for that sin." I said yes.

Hie reply was, "Why?"

He wanted to know why God would go through with the creation of Adam and Eve even as he knew they would disobey doom all mankinds to follow.
He wanted to know who exactly Jesus was paying the penalty to.
He wanted to know why that mistake by Adam and Eve would require that Jesus have to die in order to give those that came after him the chance to have sin that was on their life just for being born to be taken away.

He wanted to know why God was bound by what happened with Adam and Eve and why, if he truly was a benevolent and loving God, he would allow it to happen in a way that eventually will end up having hundreds of millions if not billions of his children - who didn't ask to be created - spending eternity in hell.

He said to me, "I know you have told me that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, but he paid a penalty that was in place only because his father created people that he knew were going to bring about that penalty."

He asked, "Why did God allow this? Who did Jesus pay the penalty of our sins TO? Why was God responsible for letting his own son be killed in order to pay the penalty, but those that don't know him or choose to follow him are still going to spend eternity in hell?"

He said, "I am sorry, but what I am hearing is that I have to change my life and follow Jesus in order to avoid a penalty that I earned just because I was born - just because God created me.
A penalty I am held accountable for because God created two flawed people several thousand years ago that he knew even as he created them, were going to disobey and doom billions of people to follow."

He said, "Apparently I am God's creation and I could suffer eternity in hell if I don't follow him and obey his every requirement. Well, I didn't ask to be born and I find it terribly unfair that I could suffer eternal damnation because God - who is supposed to be perfect - created mankind the way he did. How is that love?"

His final words were hard for me:
He said, "You say that God loves me so much that he had his son die for my sins so now all I have to do is follow him and my sins are forgiven. You leave out the part that the only reason I was born under sin is because God put me there in the first place. He knew even as he created Adam that Adam was going to sin and thus my eternal salvation would be in danger. How exactly am I to see him as an all powerful ALL LOVING God?"

I must confess, I wasn't sure how to address that for him. Especially in one sit-down conversation in the booth of a restaurant.

I am just smart enough to know that God doesn't answer to us, and He loves us intimately.

But that wasn't the answer to placate him.

 

[Rach1370]

Wow, that doesn't sound easy!
Can I suggest an answer that I freely admit might not be correct?
The bible teaches that the ultimate goal of our salvation is not just to save us. While that certainly is the result and a wonder in and of itself, God's intent in sending Christ to redeem us is not solely for our redemption. In that act of redemption God's glory is showcased as never before. In a way, it's an act more wondrous than the heavens themselves, shouting His glory. Now, it could be said that this is selfish of God...no matter his right to such things...but too often we miss a critical part of scripture and God's plan for us. God knows that we get the most joy, peace and happiness in life when we are giving glory to Him. He is not after grudging worship and praise...He knows that through those things we become closer to Him, love Him more. And it's only through our love and submission to Him that we get the most joy and Him the most praise.
Now, I don't know why God felt it necessary to go through the fall of mankind...whether he caused it by making something he knew would fall, or whether He just allowed it to occur. But the one thing I do know is that if Christ has not come, lived as a man, died in my place and risen again in a perfect picture of what will become of me, I don't know whether I or any other Christian could praise as we do. Could we be as thankful, as humble...with nothing to boast in? Would it have become necessary for us to have the Spirit come and live within us, giving us gifts that way? The believer in Christ has so many wonderful things...boons to himself which reflect God's glory, that may not have come about if history had gone another way.
Plus, another answer might be really simple. Is your friend a parent? Ask him if he would take away the child he loves just because he knows that child my stumble and fall? Yes, it would save heartache on behalf of the child if he never existed to experience some of these things, but ultimately, the parent just can't come at that notion. We guide, love, protect as we can...and expect the child to heed us...as grown ups, we know best...It could all come down to love. We know God loves us, that we are His children. Since He is outside of time, how could He not make us when He already knew all of us and loved us...regardless of the path both we and He would take...

 

[aspen]

Sounds like a good conversation - it is certainly an old one. People have been arguing about the problem of pain (evil ) in the world since God introduced himself as montheistic.

In my opinion, God chose to make Adam and Eve good, not perfect. He was planning to perfect them by leading them to the Tree of Life. I believe Jesus would have lead Adam and Eve to the Tree if they had not sinned first. God appears to be a Good Parent - and just like good parents on Earth, I believe He cherishes watching His children grow up. Sin never had to be apart of this growth process, but because our wanted to rely on our own ability to be 'grownups', so to speak, we learned how to be selfish (sinful)

As far as you friend - I think he took the same chance that God did - he decided to create an autonomous being even though he knew that he shared the same tendency towards Original Sin (inflicting part on self and others through a tendency towards selfishness). It is a risking business but the real possibly of raising (in God's case - redeeming) a creature who can love perfectly is worth it.

 

[Kidron]

So he said, "That means that even as he created Adam, he knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and bring ruin on all mankind, right?" I agreed.
His reply was, "So God knew, even as he blew life into Adam that the result was going to be the fall of all mankind and the necessity of having his son die on the cross to pay the penalty for that sin." I said yes.
Hie reply was, "Why?"


you might ask him if he has children..
if he does or if he plans to, you might ask him......"well, you know they are going to do bad things, they are going to forget you when they get to be about 18 - 40, they are going to drink and do drugs and watch porn.......and its possible that one or all of them might turn out to be Ted Bundy or worse.....However, knowing that, do you still want children?.........WHY?
Same with God.
So, maybe this will help him to understand that God knowing a thing, is not the same as God causing a thing........and that God understood that to allow man FREE WILL was to allow man to HAVE IT, and what this would do........and so, he allowed it knowing what man would do with it, and because he knew what man would do.... he created a way for HIMSELF to suffer on a Cross the sacrificial restitution necessary to have a family of free will members who are not robots and are not clones.
Tell your buddy that God wanted a family, and understood that to have a real one he would have to let them make mistakes that only he could solve on a Cross, and he was willing to do it for his family and did.
Any FATHER will do this for his family........this is LOVE.


He said, "I am sorry, but what I am hearing is that I have to change my life and follow Jesus in order to avoid a penalty that I earned just because I was born - just because God created me.
A penalty I am held accountable for because God created two flawed people several thousand years ago that he knew even as he created them, were going to disobey and doom billions of people to follow."


Tell him that Jesus is not paying for Adam's sins, hes paying for HIS.
Ask him if he is a sinner.
Ask him if he has ever lied, or stolen, and if so, what does that make him?
So, get him to see that its HIS SINS that God is paying for out of LOVE for him...... KNOWING the mess he is in because of Adam.


He said, "Apparently I am God's creation and I could suffer eternity in hell if I don't follow him and obey his every requirement. Well, I didn't ask to be born and I find it terribly unfair that I could suffer eternal damnation because God - who is supposed to be perfect - created mankind the way he did. How is that love?"


Someone needs to explain to him that he will suffer hell >only< by rejecting Christ and not because he didnt obey the commandments.
Perhaps you should tell him??

He said, "You say that God loves me so much that he had his son die for my sins so now all I have to do is follow him and my sins are forgiven. You leave out the part that the only reason I was born under sin is because God put me there in the first place. He knew even as he created Adam that Adam was going to sin and thus my eternal salvation would be in danger. How exactly am I to see him as an all powerful ALL LOVING God?"


Tell him that whether its fair or whether its not, it is what it is.
Hes here, he's going to die, and if he dies with his sins not forgiven, he is going to pay for them himself..... and rhetorical arguments against realty wont help him when he faces God.
Tell him that God understands the situation, and had to allow it to happen as it did so that people have a choice....have FREE WILL.
God is not going to choose or make........he is going to allow., and your friend is in the allow situation, and if he wants to
avoid a free pardon because he feels stuck, then, so be it, BUT, never blame God for his end.
And the reason is, ...God took the responsibility for our "stuck" position, and took the blame, and fixed it.
He knew that when he gave us free will we would abuse it and end up in a mess.
So, God offers an eternal solution thats free of charge, and if your friend does not want a free fix, then your friend is an idiot.
(But you dont have to tell him that), tho your friend is trying to find an analytical justification to continue to love his sins.
The fact is, "they wont come to Christ because they prefer the darkness, lest their DEEDS be reproved by the LIGHT"
So, your friend is just trying a strawman's game to avoid the light.
Nothing new.
Your testimony has convicted him, and he is now in full blown philosophical spin mode trying to dodge the heat.
His argument is typical of an atheist's argument who found it online looking for an argument against Salvation.
Another one they will typically use is...

1.) if God created Satan knowing he would temp EVE, then isnt God responsible?.........blah, blah, blah.
2.) If God is so merciful-all powerful then why do children get sick and die?................blah, blah, blah.
3.) what about all those in the jungles of Africa who have never heard the gospel.....if they die do they go to hell.........should they?...........blah, blah, blah.
4.) if God is a loving God then why does he >send< people to hell?..........blah, blah, blah.
Typical, standard Atheist's spin 101 found on forums and talk shows everywhere..

What you need to do is not be anxious about your friend's salvation, and instead realize that you did the job, and its now God's job to do the saving.
Pray for him, and answer him honestly according to what i told you, and if he wants to argue, then dont.
If you argue, then you are allowing him more to resist., and he is already in a corner with his back against the wall.

Love and Pray and be available , but dont argue.



K

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

Good post!


Hi Foreigner,

Moving on from Kidron's comments, my thoughts are this: that whether your friend likes it or not, he does have a rebellious 'I' which can only be abandoned by embracing Christ's death on the cross for himself.

That 'I' thing is offended that anyone had to die for it. It wants to think it is good enough, clever enough, practical enough, hard-working enough (and so on) to manage it's own salvation; but that is the lie which is ingrained into all mankind by the sin itself, which masquerades as life, when in fact it breeds only eternal death - which Jesus came to abolish.

There was no other good enough to pay the price for sin,
He only, could unlock the gate of heaven and let us in.

by Mrs Alexander.


And can it be that I should gain an interest in the Saviour's blood? reminds me of another hymn by Wesley - J'esus shall reign where'er the sun...' when he says, In Him the tribes of Adam boast more blessings than their father lost.



Amen and amen!

 

[neophyte]

Foreigner, Christians depend upon our God/ Creator for all that we are and all that we have . Our own parents do not occupy any comparable relationship to us. They have only cooperated in our coming into being. God, of course, gave them the power tp be our parents. It is God Who has given us life. Without Him, we should be nothing . And the nothing of which we speak is no figure of speech-- it is ndeed literal. Without God, there would never have been the consciousness by which we recognize ourselves as John Smith or Mary Brown. We should never known what we had missed in not being born. There would not have been just the feeling of nothingness..... there would have been no feeling at all!
As a Catholic I am often asked the question : "Why is there pain and suffering, if as you say God is good? Why doesn't God kill the devil ?"
We as Christians would say that "God does not kill the devil" only because God is God. He is not an enlarged human being, with passions and imperfections. He has created for eternity, not for a moment.
Jesus the Sacrificial Lamb. By going so far as to give up His own Son for us, God reveals that He is" rich in mercy " [ Eph. 2:4 ] By giving His life to free us from sin, Jesus reveals that He Himself bears the divine name : " When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will realize that " I Am" [ John 8: 28 ]

 

[aspen]

Neophyte brings up a question that is interesting - why doesn't God kill the Devil? Interesting way to look at the problem of evil.....perhaps this is the best way? We know we as humans certainly do not have a chance of doing it without Him......We cannot even rid the world of cockroaches or bedbugs.

No wonder the desert fathers talked so much about the power of demons!

 

[dragonfly]

why doesn't God kill the Devil?

This is what the cross was all about, and why Jesus reminded His listeners of Moses raising a serpent on a pole in the wilderness - to which those who had been bitten by the fiery serpents (sin), only had to look - to be healed from the fatal venom.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Numbers 21)

Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:4; Romans 5:12; 2 Timothy 1:10; Hebrews 2:14, 15; Romans 6:6;

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Galatians 5:24

 

[aspen]

This is what the cross was all about, and why Jesus reminded His listeners of Moses raising a serpent on a pole in the wilderness - to which those who had been bitten by the fiery serpents (sin), only had to look - to be healed from the fatal venom.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Numbers 21)

Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:4; Romans 5:12; 2 Timothy 1:10; Hebrews 2:14, 15; Romans 6:6;

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Galatians 5:24

Agreed. That is my point.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

You would figure that one as smart, wise, and all knowing would pick this scenario out of all the others for a very good and morally upright reason.

Foreigner, Christians depend upon our God/ Creator for all that we are and all that we have . Our own parents do not occupy any comparable relationship to us.

"...to us." I assume you meant "...to Him."
If true then why would we understand what Paul was meaning when he said, " For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
Multiple times in scripture Yahweh is called 'our Father'. Messiah even taught us to pray this way.
If there is no comparison then why does scripture equivocate on the term routinely, as if we will understand?

Love and Pray and be available , but dont argue.

Questions asked in sincerity need a sincere answer. Just because he has asked questions similar to those who mock or jeer does not mean that he is asking in sincerity.
My wife had really tough questions that Christians didn't, wouldn't or responded "that's the way it is". It took time but the questions can be answered, and answered rigorously.

Love and Pray and be available , but dont argue.

Questions asked in sincerity need a sincere answer. Just because he has asked questions similar to those who mock or jeer does not mean that he is asking in sincerity.
My wife had really tough questions that Christians didn't, wouldn't or responded "that's the way it is". It took time but the questions can be answered, and answered rigorously.

I am not sure how to handle this.

I have been witnessing to a friend of mine and he is a very sincere and intelligent guy.

It will take a keyboard to respond in detail and more time than I have now.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Kids, that's a good one.


I have 2 munchkins. Girl 11 and boy 9. Sometimes I look at the state of the world, and imagine what they will have to go through in the future. Sometimes because of the state of the world, I wish I wouldn't have had them, so they will be spared so many heartaches and troubles.

We chose to have kids. We knew they would disobey. Yet we had a plan set up for discipline and already knew in our hearts there's nothing they can do that will disolve our love for them. We will always welcome them home again. On the same note, there are things that will stop us from "helping" them. Maybe if they're strung out on drugs and keep stealing from us. But, we would help in other ways.

Either way, God knew people would sin. God knew sin would create an imperfect system. God knew that we would all die. God even knows who won't believe and become saved. However, God also gave them a choice.

It's not our brokeness that's the problem. It's our focus and dismay of our brokeness, it's our misunderstanding where the emptiness comes from, that's the problem. As humans we want to point the finger and lay blame.

The point is, God knew, God planned, and God acted. I do believe if a human was born, and lived, and never sinned they'd go to heaven. But, at one point in our lives we will sin. I think the idea of being born with a sinfull nature vs being born a sinner is confusing. Where as, We are born with a sinfull nature, with the ability and propensity to sin. That doesn't mean we're created broken.

This is what I think everytime I see or hear the quote, "I refuse to bow down to a God who created me broken".

I've been very concerned the past couple of weeks concerning the human mind and condition. It's becoming painfully aware to me that we as a species are very lacking in subjective, and cognative thinking. Very frustrating.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

...lacking in subjective, and cognative [sic]...

Objective or subjective?

 

[Watchwithme]

Man had to be created to defeat Satan. Jesus Had to become Man in order to defeat Satan. That man is made of the Earth is our great crown.

That said this doesn't really answer why.

But hey are you aware that we Christian are as much agnostic as anyone else? There is a lot of stuff we don't know. The point is being open to someone being able to teach us or help us. We will spend all eternity getting to know God and we still will never KNOW WHY about everything. The sceptic is different so be careful what type you are dealing with and don't waste your time on sceptics.

I have been a Christian for over 20 years and I still don't know why there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.

 

[aspen]

Man had to be created to defeat Satan. Jesus Had to become Man in order to defeat Satan. That man is made of the Earth is our great crown.

That said this doesn't really answer why.

But hey are you aware that we Christian are as much agnostic as anyone else? There is a lot of stuff we don't know. The point is being open to someone being able to teach us or help us. We will spend all eternity getting to know God and we still will never KNOW WHY about everything. The sceptic is different so be careful what type you are dealing with and don't waste your time on sceptics.

I have been a Christian for over 20 years and I still don't know why there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.

I believed what you are saying about Christians being agnostic for many years as a Christian - and I still believe it in a certain sense, but....

I experienced God in prayer about 2.5 years ago in such a powerful way that 90% of my agnostic thoughts and feelings fell away - I had been a practicing Christian before that moment for years.

 

[Watchwithme]

I believed what you are saying about Christians being agnostic for many years as a Christian - and I still believe it in a certain sense, but....

I experienced God in prayer about 2.5 years ago in such a powerful way that 90% of my agnostic thoughts and feelings fell away - I had been a practicing Christian before that moment for years.

Hi there, thanks for sharing that with me. I wasn't quite meaning "agnostic" as far as my faith/belief in God, more so agnostic about the future. Do you know what I mean? The Christian walk is mostly one of revelation on an ongoing basis.

 

[aspen]

Hi there, thanks for sharing that with me. I wasn't quite meaning "agnostic" as far as my faith/belief in God, more so agnostic about the future. Do you know what I mean? The Christian walk is mostly one of revelation on an ongoing basis.

Yes, I understand - I agree.

I was given two private revelations about the future - very common ones, as I see them today, but very powerful because I really experience them. Basically, they both addressed God's sovereignty and eternal nature - I always was and I always will be. Since then, I have really stopped worrying about the future - it is as if those revelations are ever present in prayer, for me.

Anyway, I like your post.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Objective or subjective?

LOL, Objective. Great catch!

 

[HammerStone]

I don't know that my answer will satisfy your friend there, but this would not be my first time exploring this topic. I waited on the reply because I needed to turn it over in my mind and think of where to get some of the Biblical references I knew were there.

God is righteous, just, holy, and good. (Nehemiah 9:8) I think this is a fair statement that any Christian will agree with. Out of this flows His nature. God is omnipotent, yet he can do no wrong. It's treated as a paradox and invalidation of God, but that's a problem with logic, and not the Creator. God is not subject to an external definition of righteousness. Instead, that righteousness is God, it springs from his internal being.

It is sometimes said, ‘Justice requires God to do this,’ referring to some act we know He will perform. This is an error of thinking as well as of speaking, for it postulates a principle of justice outside of God which compels Him to act in a certain way. Of course there is no such principle. If there were it would be superior to God, for only a superior power can compel obedience. The truth is that there is not and can never be anything outside of the nature of God which can move Him in the least degree. All God’s reasons come from within His uncreated being. Nothing has entered the being of God from eternity, nothing has been removed, and nothing has been changed.

Justice, when used of God, is a name we give to the way God is, nothing more; and when God acts justly He is not doing so to conform to an independent criterion, but simply acting like Himself in a given situation. . . God is His own self-existent principle of moral equity, and when He sentences evil men or rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself.”

A. W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy

This is the first piece of the puzzle. God is righteous. It follows that anything he does will be righteous. He can do no wrong because he is entirely righteous, not because he's limited by the standard of righteousness.

The second piece in the reason for our existence.

Romans 4:11 ESV
Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.

Colossians 1:16 ESV
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

We were created for him - for his pleasure. This is not, in the spirit of ancient Greek and Romans religions, creation for pleasure in the sense of some kind of divine soap opera, but this is creation ultimately for the glorification of God. God is perfect and fully sufficient, but I think he desired to create something to focus his love on and I think that his perfection demands worship. The relationship with Adam was very intimate. The descriptions match more of a good friend or family member rather than an estranged God.

Given this nature of our creation - when God created us, he created us not as some sort of automaton that couldn't do anything but his will. I read a sermon by John Wesley which makes the argument that I was forming in my head.

Wesley states, in his "Image of God Sermon" dated 1730, that "the liberty of man necessarily required that he should have some trial; or else he would have had no choice whether he would stand or no, that is, no liberty at all." God could have chosen to create controlled beings, but that would not fit with his righteousness. We tend to think of liberty as a modern notion too closely associated with American Christianity, but liberty is very prevalent in the Bible.

We could go further into the fall and the consequences, which I am perfectly willing to do, but I hope this quick summary will allow you to pray, study, and answer your friend. You don't always have to know the answer lock, stock, and barrel. It's okay to say "I don't know" but that should be followed up with "I'll go find out." You've done that up, so please keep up the apologetic fight!

 

[Watchwithme]

Yes, I understand - I agree.

I was given two private revelations about the future - very common ones, as I see them today, but very powerful because I really experience them. Basically, they both addressed God's sovereignty and eternal nature - I always was and I always will be. Since then, I have really stopped worrying about the future - it is as if those revelations are ever present in prayer, for me.

Anyway, I like your post.

Thank you God bless you. Never worry about anything, in fact refuse to worry. Worry is born out of lack of trust in God, its actually quite sinful.

 

[John Zain]

God created angels and humans with free will.
He knew some angels would take advantage of their free will and be disobedient.
And He knew some humans would do the same.

He devised His plan of salvation, and no matter what it was, how fantastic it was,
or how crazy it was ... it is all about who will be obedient to follow it.
Whatever God presents to us ... we are expected to be obedient to it.

So, IMO, God gives certain humans (but not everyone) faith to believe in His salvation plan.
But these born-again ones must co-operate to be sanctified unto holiness.
The elect are actually the ones who choose to go along with all of this and be overcomers.
And this is where election and free will are combined together.

Note: In all of God's dealings on earth,
does not He insist on man working together with Him to accomplish His goals?
Salvation is no different ... obedience and co-operation.