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...a living soul

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Jonous, Dec 1, 2007.

  1. Jonous

    Jonous New Member

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    I'd like to hear eveyone's thought on this.Bible says "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7So we all have a part of God in us, as He gave us a breath from his breath.Then how can we explain our deviation from our initial design? I'll mention some verses that describe what I'm saying. "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Gen 6:12 "and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Gen 8:21 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." Ecc. 7:21Seems that although the initial design of man had all the prerequisites to function flawlessly as it was perfectly conceived and designed by the perfect Being, it just didn't. What do you think went wrong?Your thoughts [​IMG]
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I'd like to hear eveyone's thought on this.Bible says "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7So we all have a part of God in us, as He gave us a breath from his breath.Then how can we explain our deviation from our initial design? I'll mention some verses that describe what I'm saying. "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Gen 6:12 "and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Gen 8:21 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." Ecc. 7:21Seems that although the initial design of man had all the prerequisites to function flawlessly as it was perfectly conceived and designed by the perfect Being, it just didn't. What do you think went wrong?Your thoughts [​IMG]
    Sin.Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Sin is what kills us. We disobey God's words and Him by sinning.Jag
     
  3. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    I'd like to hear eveyone's thought on this.Bible says "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7So we all have a part of God in us, as He gave us a breath from his breath.Then how can we explain our deviation from our initial design? I'll mention some verses that describe what I'm saying. "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Gen 6:12 "and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Gen 8:21 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." Ecc. 7:21Seems that although the initial design of man had all the prerequisites to function flawlessly as it was perfectly conceived and designed by the perfect Being, it just didn't. What do you think went wrong?Your thoughts
    This is an interesting topic Jonous, thank you for posting it. [​IMG]The fallen angels had mixed with daughters of Adam and with that caused, "wickedness of man so great in the earth that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil contnually." :eek:That was the reason for the flood of Noah.The beginning of that evil was with Cain when he slew his brother Able. Where did he get that evil? :naughty: From his father....the king of the fallen angels!...........Whirlwind
     
  4. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    What was this breath? Is it the same as Holy Spirit?
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I personally aside from the obvious have always thought this had something to do with free will as free will was one of the attibuttes of the Angels, it sets us apart from the law of nature from the Animals . It allows us to choose which God to believe in,To choose to love the Lord or not, to choose if we sin to repent, without free will we would just be Animals following the law of survial
     
  6. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    What was this breath? Is it the same as Holy Spirit?
    Breath of LifeBreath - #5397 neshamah, from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital reath, divine inspiration, intellect, or (concr.) an animal: - blast (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.Life - #2416 chay, from 2421, alive, hence, raw, (flesh), fresh (plant, water, year), strong, also (as moun. espec. in the fem. sing. and masc. plusr.) life or living thing, whether lit. or fig. - + age, alive, appetite (wild) beast, company, congregation, life ( time) live (ly), living (creature) maintenance, merry, multitude (be) old, quick, raw, running springing, troop.That is what the Strong's Concordance lists for the meaning of the two words. Used as they were in the sentence....And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, I believe it means God placed a soul in man, in Adam specifically.Does that mean that before, those of the 6th day creation, all the races of man didn't have a soul? I don't know. Perhaps they were living flesh only but God didn't place souls in them until the time of Adam. Until the line to Christ began, which would ultimately offer salvation for our souls, it may not have been possible to have a soul as without Him there was no hope of salvation? Perhaps God waited to see what would happen with Adam and Eve and the serpent. He knew, of course, as everything was set in motion from the beginning but maybe He waited until the last moment in hopes man would not sin, not disobey Him.I don't know.....Jonous's post brings up many questions, doesn't it?........Whirlwind
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I agree with your description of the Hebrew word but I think the 6th day creation did have souls We were created in the first earth age and we were basically in our spirit bodies /souls (this is not to say spirit as ghosts but with substance) All the races created the sixth day were not soulless they did have souls as they also were given flesh and life through God just as Adam We are even told this in the description of the sixth day people having the breath of life in the account of Noah even the animals had this breath But I do believe that God gave Adam something special something differnt that the others did not posses, Was that free will ?? Is that why their was not sin until Satan in the Garden the 6th day generation did not have free will??? I do not know just food for thought.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I agree with your description of the Hebrew word but I think the 6th day creation did have souls We were created in the first earth age and we were basically in our spirit bodies /souls (this is not to say spirit as ghosts but with substance) All the races created the sixth day were not soulless they did have souls as they also were given life through God But I do believe that God gave Adam something special something differnt that the others did not posses, Was that free will ?? Is that why their was not sin until Satan in the Garden the 6th day generation did not have free will??? I do not know just food for thought.
    I agree with you Kriss that the 6th day people has a soul in them. For how can a person walk the Earth in a flesh body without a soul? Yes, I believe that the 6th day people has free will...except for the fact that Lucy wasn't aiming at the 6th day people but the SPECIAL LINEAGE for Christ to come through. Before Adam, there was no sin. After Adam sinned. Lucy indirectly aimed at the 6th day people as Cain married the 6th day person. They had no knowledge whatsoever by YHWH except to multiply.Just for food to think of, as I want to express common sense about the 6th day people.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  9. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    I agree with your description of the Hebrew word but I think the 6th day creation did have souls We were created in the first earth age and we were basically in our spirit bodies /souls (this is not to say spirit as ghosts but with substance) All the races created the sixth day were not soulless they did have souls as they also were given flesh and life through God just as Adam We are even told this in the description of the sixth day people having the breath of life in the account of Noah even the animals had this breath But I do believe that God gave Adam something special something differnt that the others did not posses, Was that free will ?? Is that why their was not sin until Satan in the Garden the 6th day generation did not have free will??? I do not know just food for thought.
    You're probably right Kriss. What has made me question it is a question asked on another forum. Perhaps you can help with it?In explaining to him about the 6th day creation of man as opposed to Adam, which of course he didn't believe, he said....."but there can't have been any other creations as it is written :1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.His reasoning was if death comes about because of Adam then those before Adam must still be walking the earth. I answered that the death mentioned was spiritual as being made alive was also spiritual.So....in rethinking this, and I thank you for making me do that, perhaps the answer is....yes, they had souls but as there was no law given, there could be no sin for them to be judged on....so, their souls could find salvation according to their works.What do you think? ........WhirlwindBy the way....what do those small, colored dots by our names mean? Why are some purple and some blue?
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I think that could be a plausable explanation there could be more than one reason for thisIt could also be that when Adam sinned it spread through out the known world remember Adam and Eve were sent out into the World and could no longer stay in EdenAlso Cain was kicked out unto the World and we know he spread sin.we also know that most of the sixth Gen. mated with fallen Angels So any or all of these could have played a partI also think you are right about 1 cor.15:22 is speaking spiritualy of death and life not physical
     
  11. Mighty Bear

    Mighty Bear New Member

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    Because there are two forces in the world."I will put enmity between you and the woman,and between your offspring and her offspring;he shall bruise your head,and you shall bruise his heel."(Genesis 3:15)
     
  12. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    What is man that God is mindful of him? Man was created in God’s image, but what does that mean? Does it mean that man is a spirit like God? Does it mean that God has a physical body like ours? Or does it refer to the quality of the mind God gave him? Is it all the above and more? Why does God come in the likeness of man to save man thru rebirth? What is this rebirth and eternal life? What is the judgment for sin? To understand what man is, it is helpful to contrast angels and man to God. “But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man(referring to Jesus), that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;” Heb.2: “And of the angels he saith; Who maketh his angels spirits” Heb1:7. Speaking of Jesus he saith; “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham” Heb.2:16. It is important to note that angels are a different form of spirit than God, because “God is a Spirit”(John 4:24.) and Jesus(God) took not the form of an angel which is a spirit also, but took the form of man. Christ’s spiritual nature has “life in himself” John 5:26 but angle’s spirit get their life from Christ who is “sustaining all things by his powerful word” Heb1:3. “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Phil.2:5-8. “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” Heb.2:16-17. So what is man, if God and angels are spirit and Jesus did not take on the form of a spirit(angel)? What form is man that Jesus took on if it is not spirit? “And the Lord God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life: and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7. This states that man became a living soul with component parts of dust, spirit, and soul; not a living spirit or body. < “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” 1 Thes.5:23.> The bible often speaks of man as if he were a body, a soul, or a spirit, attributing the characteristics of a person to each of the three parts individually. This has caused many to believe that man is a living spirit that can live apart from the body or a living body instead of a living soul made up of a body, soul and spirit. Example:· Body: “For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” Gen.3:19.· Soul: “ My soul longeth… even fainteth for the courts of the Lord” Psalm 84:2. “thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” 3John 1:2 · Spirit: “preached unto the spirits in prison” 1Peter 3:19. To illustrate why the bible speaks of any part as the whole person, take a coil (the body) and run electricity (spirit) through it. What you get is a third element which is a magnetic field (the soul). What created the magnetism (the soul)? Both, increase the power of the electric current or the number of coils in the coil and you get a stronger magnetic field. The magnetic field needs the coil and electricity to function. Illustration 2: Your soul likened unto software (brain) for a computer, your body is like a computer which is run by the electricity (your spirit). All 3 are needed to make it function. However the focus in the bible is the living soul not a living spirit. So whenever a person is referred to in the bible (as you, them, him, etc.) with out making reference to one of the parts, it refers to the whole person (body, soul, and spirit) not the body or soul or spirit alone. The soul needs the body and spirit to express itself. The following scripture illustrate the focus on the soul for major issues:· “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4. · The object of our salvation, “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls” 1Peter 1:8-9.· “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Math 10:28.· “We are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul” Heb. 10:39.· Speaking of Jesus: “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12· At the 1st death the body and soul go to the grave, and the spirits of all men go back to God. Soul: “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul form the hand of the grave” Psalm 89:47-49 Body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (both righteous and wicked people’s spirit) Eccl.12:7. Spirit: “There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit” Eccl.8:8. Note that the spirit is not a person when it returns to God.This is clearly illustrated by Jesus death for us, the foundation of all doctrine from the scripture: Christ “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12. Christ’s soul and body went into the grave 3 days, and his spirit went to God the father the day he died on the cross, not after the resurrection: Christ on the cross-“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit” Luke 23:46. It is not saying the spirit as the conscious part of Christ went to heaven that day, but that the spirit as a none personal element went back to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7). Christ’s soul was in the grave for 3 days “the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” Mat. 12:40. He ascended to the Father after his resurrection: “He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption” Acts 2:31. The soul is considered to be man’s being, but the spirit is “the breath of the spirit of life” taken away from him (committed to God). “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” Phil.2-5. The mind and its capacity to reflect the attributes of God’s character is probably the major aspect of being made in God’s image. After man had sinned, sin consumed him and separated him from God’s Holy Spirit: “ Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh” Gen.6:3. The day man sinned he died spiritually, meaning he no longer had Gods Spirit in him to guide him. “Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” Rom.8:9. Man choose to live without God’s Spirit and depended on his own self (flesh, carnal, that which is of the world) and not God. “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom.8:7-8. For it is by Gods Spirit all things are understood, “for without me (God) ye can do nothing” John 15:5. The born again person is dead to sin but alive to God. Man without Gods Spirit is dead to God but alive to sin. Just as Christ died for sin “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom.6:11 “For if ye live after the flesh(not receiving things of the Spirit), ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” Rom.8:13 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” Rom.8:14. “to be carnally minded is Death; but to be spiritually minded is life”Rom.8:6 “The natural man(flesh or carnal nature) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.” 1Cor.2:14. “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”Rom.4:17. This principle is illustrated through out the Bible. · God considers saved man as perfect even though man is not perfect, the process of growing us in Christ’s image is not completed until the resurrection when he returns for us(Phil.1:6): “With one sacrifice he made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Heb.10:14. · God also considers those that are dead to his Spirit but alive to sin (“the souls alive” Ezekiel 13:18-19) as if they were really dead because “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of god abidedth on him.” John 3:35. But the wrath of God is not executed until the end of the age: “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”2Pet. 3:7.· “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,” Eph.2:4-6. We are not actually there yet or raised from the dead, but considered to be a new creation raised from the dead and seated with Christ in heaven through Christ now (Roman 6). “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”KJ. God has a plan to save man “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2Peter 3:9. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” John 3:16. “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” John 3:3-8. What does the bible mean to be born again, born again of water and Spirit? The people of the old testament should also have understood this: “Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” John 3:8:9-10. “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” Gal.4:28-29. The following scripture explain born of water and Spirit and apply it to the body, soul, and spirit. It illustrates that rebirth is the word of God put into our heart by the work and leading of God the Holy Spirit.· “give us birth by the word of truth” James 1:18 · “with the washing of water by the word,” Ep.5:26 · “he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;” Titus3:5.· “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren; being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God.” 1Pet.1:22-23. · “our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith” Heb.20:22-23. “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” Rom. 12:1-2. “for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” 1Cor.3:16-17 The bible speaks of having a fallen nature and applies it to the body, soul, and spirit. It is apparent that nothing about man is holy yet, however man is considered to be a holy person by the Spirit of God dwelling in him through the death of Christ. “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”KJ. Without God’s Spirit living with us and leading us it is impossible to do good(spiritual things) “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness…. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”Rom.8:7-10&14 Life and existence is only by the power of Christ. Christ defines himself as I am; “say unto the children of Israel, I Am has sent me unto you…. The Lord God of your fathers… this is my name forever…” Exodus 3:3-15. “Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:56-58. He is the self eternal existing one, “through whom everything exists” Heb.2:10, including spirits and souls. “sustaining all things by his powerful word” Heb1:3. “For our God is a consuming fire. Heb. 12:29. We exist eternally only in Christ by his power: “In him we…. have our being…” Acts 17:28. Our life is in the son: “And this is the record that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” 1 John 5:11-12. We do not have life in ourselves: “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” John 5:26. “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” Rom.8:9. “Christ, who is our life,” Col.2:4. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of god abidedth on him.” John 3:35. The wrath of God is not executed until the end of the age: “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” 2Pet. 3:7. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2Pet.3:9. Until the end of the age the “rain falls on the just and unjust” and we are to “do good unto your enemy”. The wicked and righteous souls are alive by the power of God; “seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things” Acts 17:25. In Christ we have live eternal. Without Christ we are alive only for a short time, “to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished” 2Pet.2:9, were the soul that sins shall die, therefore they are called the living dead because the wrath of God Abides on them. For the saved: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Col.3:3, “Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.” Luke 18:30, “and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:30. “Whoever lives and believes in me, will never die” John 11:27 also refers to soul sleep till the resurrection were it awakes, for it is subject to the grave till then. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Math 10:28, the soul is not destroyed in the first death but the second death, were God executes his judgment on sinners. This is why it is said “and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:30 when the soul awakes from sleep. Death penalty:2nd Death:Contrast with the characteristic of Christ. Contrast: I Am/ no more, eternal:“and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezek. 28:13-19. This is referring to both man and the fallen angel Lucifer. “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.” Psalm 104:35. “For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen….they shall be as though they had not been.” Obadiah 15-16. “And there shall be no more death….for the former things are passed away.” Rev. 21:4. “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Rev. 20:14.Execution of death penalty: Its execution can not be stopped: “to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44.“to be cast into everlasting fire.” Math.18:8. The duration of the execution is limited: “How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: ….. and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.” Rev.18:7-8. note that this is not endless torment but limited by how much evil she did. Also “shall be beaten with many stripes.” Luke 12:47 not endless strips. “devoured them” Rev.20:9. “burned up” 2Peter 3:7. “Sodom & Gomorrha… example,….eternal fire.” Jude 7. The results are eternal: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.” 2 Thess.1:9 (not everlasting destructing, but destruction that shall not be reversed, the process is limited). “these shall go away into everlasting punishment” Math.25:46. Example: Contrast use of eternal in terms of results not execution. Eternal: “eternal salvation” Heb. 5:9, not forever saving, but saved by one act forever. “eternal judgment” Heb. 2:9, not judging forever, but an act of judgment which is irrevocable. “eternal redemption” Heb. 9:12, not a redeeming act that takes forever to accomplish, but an act that took 3 days, that releases you forever from death. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Math. 25:46. The punishment for sin is death, which lasts forever, not forever dying. Even creation testifies to this, in this world death is considered the worst punishment for a crime, not because of the length of suffering, but because you can’t participate in anything anymore.. “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.”Rev.20:10. Compare: Jonah in the belly of the whale “the earth with her bars was about me forever” Jonah 2:6, yet “Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.” Jonah 1:17. Also, Christ, who paid the price for eternal death for us, who was dead three days in the grave. The duration of eternal is related to the nature of the subject it refers to in the bible. For Satan who did the greatest sin, his execution duration will probably be 3 days, as Christ was in the grave. But the end result of the eternal fire for all sin and sinners is:“never shalt thou be any more.” Ezek. 28:13-19, which is the second death. “and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev.21:4. Answer to some commonly misunderstood scripture: Many misunderstanding are cleared up when taken in context, with the foundation of the scripture on the nature of man stated above. Consideration A: God will bring the spirits of the dead with him when he returns to get their bodies. “ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep.” 1Thess.4:13-15. Many interpret this to mean that the spirits of those who have died are coming back with Jesus, when he comes the 2nd time, to get their bodies. To get the correct meaning we need to understand the question and how it is being answered. Many Christians feared that Jesus already came the 2nd time and went back to heaven without them or that there would be no resurrection. · “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.” 2Thess.2:1-2. · “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?” 1Cor.15:12. · “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” 1Thess.4:13.He informs them that this is not so, then he explains in detail how those living and those who have died (sleep) will go together with Jesus back to heaven.· “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.” 1Thess.4:14-15. He then explains in detail how we will go back to together with Jesus to heaven.· “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1Thess.4:16-17. The Bible consistently tells us the we will not be with Christ until he returns the second time:· “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Thess.5:23.· “And to wait for his Son from heaven” 1Thess.1:10 · “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 1Cor.5:5.· “Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward…. “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” John 13:36-14:3.· “will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” Heb.9:28. Consideration B:Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 1Cor.5:8 Many Christians believe that this means that when we die our spirit leaves the body to be the Jesus. However, this verse is the conclusion to the preceding 7 verses where he did not want to be found naked (absent from the body) but to be clothed with his house (body) from heaven and thus be with the Lord.:· 2Cor. 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” This house is in reference to what Christ said: John 13:36 “Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now: but thou shalt follow me afterwords.” John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.” This is referring to the 2nd coming. · 2cor5:2 “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.” Naked refers to the 1st death were our earthly body sees corruption as did David’s. Paul did not look forward to being found dead, but being resurrected with his heavenly body or as he put it “desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.” · 2cor. 5:4 “For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (dead), but clothed upon(house from heaven), that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” (referring to the 1st resurrection). This is referring to 1Cor. 15: 54 “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” Which occurs at the 1st resurrection when Christ returns for us. · 2cor. 5:5 “Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore (based on the previous 4 verses) we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” “To be present with the Lord” is referring, to the putting off this earthly tabernacle which “cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”(1Cor. 15:50), and receiving our new house from heaven at the resurrection. So will we be present with the Lord. Remember he did not want to be unclothed which was the 1st death-sleep, but to be clothed with our house from heaven, the resurrection body. 2Cor. 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” This house is in reference to what Christ said: John 13:36 “Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now: but thou shalt follow me afterwords.” John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also”:Consideration C: Thief on the cross “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. This is a punctuation error and should read: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” There is no punctuation in the original language. Jesus died that day and went to the grave for 3 days, so he did not go to paradise until another day, paradise is in Heaven: “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Rev.2:7. “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,” Rev.22:1-2. “Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;” Zechariah 9:12. This is a similar example which was fulfilled on a different day.Consideration D: Not God of the dead but living for we will never die: “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” John 11:25-26 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” John 8:51. “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Math.22:29-32. Many people believe that when the bible says we shall never see death because God is not God of the dead but the living, that this refers to the idea we are living spirits which go to be with God at death, and that it is our body which dies. This however can not be correct because God did not take upon him the form of a spirit but that of a living soul: “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels(spirits); but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” Heb.2:16. Abraham is a living soul, not a living spirit in Genesis 2:7. The soul is subject to the grave during the 1st death: “for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;” Psalm 16:9-11. Shall never die refers to the 2nd death which is the penalty for sin, because Heb. 9:27 says “it is appointed unto men once to die” referring to the 1st death. The 1st death is called sleep by Jesus because the soul is not destroyed until the 2nd death: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Math.10:28). This is why the bible is also able to say that God is God of the Living and the Dead(sleeping) also: “For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead(sleeping righteous, not the wicked dead) and living.” Rom.14:7-11. The body is not the focus, see Math.10;28. But “the soul that sins it shall die”, Eze.18:4.
     
  13. Mighty Bear

    Mighty Bear New Member

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    If there was no free will, there wouldn't be evil,and if there was no evil, we would not know God.Because by eliminating evil, God is revealed to usand we know Him as who He is."No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side,he has made him known." (John 1:18)
     
  14. Mighty Bear

    Mighty Bear New Member

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    If God simply wanted us to conform to a culture of holiness then He wouldn't letevil to exists hence no free will. But evil exists so that light would be pronounced."For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisionsamong you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that thosewho are genuine among you may be recognized."1 Corinthians 11:18-19 (ESV)
     
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