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A Prayer of Faith:

Discussion in 'Prayer Forum' started by VictoryinJesus, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I do understand there are many who fully believe James 5:15 speaks of a promise of physical healing. I’m not disputing the physical application of, “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

    The struggle I have with it is the acceptance that: God’s word is fulfilled...sometimes. Sometimes it works and God honours a prayer of faith to save the sick...and sometimes God chooses not to for reasons unknown to us. That can not be so. Mark 15:28
    [28] And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

    John 6:39-40
    [39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:54
    [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    James 5:16-18
    [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. [16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. [17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. [18] And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

    Elias prayed that the Spirit would not rain upon the earth and it rained not by the space of three years and six months. It was a Spiritually dry three years and six months, with no Spiritual fruit. Elias prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her (Spiritual) fruit. Elias was a man like us, with like passions.

    Acts 14:13-15
    [13] Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. [14] Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of , they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, [15] And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

    Again, Acts 14:15-17 “And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: [16] Who(God) in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. [17] Nevertheless he (God)left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain (the Spirit)from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

    Elias was a man, and he prayed for the rain to come water the earth and she(the earth) brought forth the peaceable fruit of righteousness through Christ. James 3:18 “And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.”

    My husband sat down with a man the other day during their break at work. He showed him James 5 and how the entire passage speaks of great Spiritual power and promise. All the man could see was physical healing. Finally, he got it and said yes, I see the Spiritual application...but that is not encouraging. Why is the physical application of James 5 more encouraging than the Spiritual promise to bring rain and much fruit?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  2. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Active Member

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    Hi ViJ! I'm not sure if you meant to post here. As far as I know this area is for prayer requests, and it looks like you're needing to have a discussion. You may want to check out if there's a better place for your post.

    It's a good topic and one that can be baffling. I've seen God heal instantly, and I've seen Him heal gradually, and I've been waiting over 25 years to see some symptoms go.

    As far as the spiritual application of the verse, we should be as encouraged by the spiritual as we are by the physical. I think they're both important, but perhaps we tend to have our eyes on the temporal more than the eternal....
    .
     
  3. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure how to move it, or delete it? I’ve deleted post before but never a topic started. The only options given are to edit title or to add a poll. Do you know how to move it?

    I didn’t post it to begin a debate or to disrespect anyone’s perspective on a prayer of faith, but rather there are some struggles I’ve been facing for a while now. This passage holds intimacy with me and its spiritual application (not that the physical isn’t important)... Also, there is great comfort and hope and joy in that, like Elias...we can pray for the Spiritual rain and a fruitful season.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  4. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Active Member

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    I hope you don't think that I was fussing at you about where you posted. I just thought that if you want more discussion, you probably won't get it in the prayer section. But then again, maybe you will. I'm new here, so what do I know? :)

    I think this would make a great discussion, so if you want to move it, you probably have to ask a moderator to do it. I'm just guessing about this. They probably explain this somewhere.... I know, I'm a lot of help. NOT! :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  5. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if this is pertinent to the OP, But with what my wife and I have been going through it has been a understanding of what might be!
    So take it as just a thought, something to ponder upon,OK!
    Hebrews 6: 1-2 - Therefore,leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Messiah, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God!
    2- Of the Doctrine of Baptisms___? This is where I will try to express what to ponder! BAPTISMS, plural?
    John Baptized for repentance, Then there is the Baptism of identification [In Messiah's name] Then there is the Baptism of Fire [the Holy Spirit]
    Then the Baptism of suffering [as Messiah did] maybe a test of our hearts, we must consider that sometimes we go through unpleasant times in our life, and we are to stand, no matter what, Give God and Savior Praise. Salvation is a Gift, just remember those that walked with our Savior gave their Lives to Preach the Kingdom! I liked your OP, because it kinda fit with Our Situation!
     
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  6. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

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    Dear Brother Truth, with all you and your wife are facing, the fear she has expressed, and the continuing work of God in both your lives, expect to see miracles; even pray on it.

    Even Paul uttered these following words in 2Ti 1:12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. I truly believe God delivers us all into His presence knowing that it is His grace, and not us responsible. Prayerfully you’ll see the moment she realizes just how much He loves her, and always has.

    As to baptisms, there is one, and that was on the day of Pentecost. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" - I Corinthians 12:13.

    Others were symbolic such as water baptism represented by circumcision in the Old Covenant as a seal I read in another report.

    Your wife may be looking for anything that she could be blamed for, but God has received her by merely calling on His name. Rom 10:13.

    Be strong brother for her sake too. Assure her of your and God’s love of her.


    God bless you both in Jesus’ name.
     
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  7. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Truth, I’m praying for your wife. She is in my heart and on my mind before God. I’ve struggled so much lately in what to ask God for. There is no doubt He will give us whatever we ask for pertaining to the Spirit. It is the physical I’m unsure of. I know He is a God of the impossible. I’ve mentioned Scarlet here before, back when I first came to the forum. Scarlet has a rare form of bone cancer. There are only two documented cases in the United States and she is one. The cancer has attacked her entire body. Over a year ago the doctors gave up treatment and told her husband she wouldn’t make it. Scarlet is alive today. Her body is fighting the cancer. Now hopeful again the doctors are treating her with immunology, enhancing her body’s natural defenses rather than beating them down. There is hope. I believe in medicine and treatments...but I also believe God is over every breath. A miracle can be treatment working...God the One giving the success and restoration of health. I could go to sleep tonight and not wake up in the morning... He opens my eyes and grants another day. God bless you and your wife and give you peace and strength and direction. Thank you for sharing about the baptisms. It seems a good study would include “to partake” ?

    2 Timothy 2:6-13
    [6] The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. [7] Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. [8] Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: [9] Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. [10] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. [11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him , we shall also live with him : [12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him : if we deny him , he also will deny us: [13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
     
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  8. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Active Member

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    I've been thinking about your question--why the physical application is more promising than the spiritual. I guess for me, they're both important. The physical is important because if I die without fulfilling all that God has for me to do, I see that as defeat, like the devil has won out and thwarted God's will for me. Of course, as spiritual beings, we need all the spiritual fruit God has for us in order to live the abundant life Jesus came to give us.
     
  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been thinking a lot about it also. Maybe we prefer the physical because it is seen...an immediate reward. An immediate answer from God concerning our needs and the needs of others. While the Spiritual is the unseen and takes faith and trust in what is unseen. In a fallen world God has given us: ask anything in My name and I will give it to you. And He said He will give us the desires of our heart. Does our heart desire the physical or the long suffering Patience of Spirit. A question I’ve asked many times of my own...is the spiritual enough? Am I content? For instance Paul says we should be content if we have rainment and food. Two basic needs. Yet Paul was naked and hungry (physically) many times. Two basic needs: a change of garment, bread from above to satisfy our hunger and living water for thirst. There is a contemporary song that says about God: I thought You would have reached down by now and helped us. —But God has reached down and helped us. Is it enough?

    2 Timothy 2:24-26
    [24] And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    IF God preadventure ...

    James 5:15
    [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    James 5:17-18
    [17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. [18] And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

    Isaiah 27:6
    [6] He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.
     
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  10. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ^
    it's only unseen with two eyes, once we have plucked one out we are able to see also imo
    iow the attraction to the physical is the evidence of the condition, even as it is believed to be the cure for it.
    Mature believers understand why the Benny Hinns of the world avoid hospitals like the plague, there is no secret
     
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  11. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 4:14-15
    [14] And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. [15] Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them.
     
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  13. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5:29
    [29] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    What does that mean? How does the eye offend? Matthew 6:23
    [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
     
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  14. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

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    Hi dear Sister VictoryinJesus, you are seeing the law explained unto the unbelieving Jew to the nth degree if that makes sense to you.

    Just prior to that, we read in Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.

    We read of one such sin of the eye is in Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her.

    Also, to realize this context, notice that to keep the law to that extent was to keep their whole body from being cast into hell in Mt 5:29-30. None of God's children are cast into hell.

    I hope this helps, but if not I'm probably going to write a thread explaing the difference in a sin unto death for the believer such as Moses and Aaron suffered, versus the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit many experienced by turning back before believing on Jesus.

    May God bless you in Christ Jesus. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  15. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Active Member

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    You make some good points. We do tend to prefer what is seen. This makes me think about Abraham. At one point, God changed his name from Abram to Abraham, which means "father of many." God did this before Abraham had any offspring.

    Paul explained this in Romans 4.

    16 This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants — not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of Abraham’s faith. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: I have made you the father of many nations. He is our father in God’s sight, in whom Abraham believed — the God who gives life to the dead and calls things into existence that do not exist. 18 He believed, hoping against hope, so that he became the father of many nations according to what had been spoken: So will your descendants be. 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body to be already dead (since he was about a hundred years old) and also the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver in unbelief at God’s promise but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 because he was fully convinced that what God had promised, he was also able to do.22 Therefore, it was credited to him for righteousness.​

    Verse 17 says that God "calls things into existence that do not exist." I believe that those things don't exist in the physical yet, but they exist in the spiritual realm. By faith they are converted from the spiritual (where our eyes can't see them) into the physical realm.

    I think that we have to get to the point that we're satisfied with His promise even before we SEE the physical manifestation of that promise because we know that His answer exists and that He will manifest it at the right time like He did for Abraham. That takes a special kind of faith!
     
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  16. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 11:24-34
    [24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. [28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. [29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land : which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. [30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. [31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. [32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: [33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
     
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  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    and a shovel doesn't hurt i guess :)
    the best passage about works done from faith one is likely to ever find imo
     
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  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    this is a declaration about perspectives imo. The world is a perfect and wonderful place that God loves, but we often tend to see the sky falling, so this is a statement that kind of goes along with "the bed is too short, the blanket too narrow." i don't wanna wise up the marks too much here but suffice it to say that blessing and cursing do not come from the same mouth
     
  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Also consider: Psalm 127:3
    [3] Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord : and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

    Psalm 127:4-5
    [4] As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. [5] Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

    “...they shall not be ashamed.”
    “Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them(children).”

    Psalm 37:19
    [19] They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

    Isaiah 49:22-23
    [22] Thus saith the Lord God , Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. [23] And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord : for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

    Beautiful: Isaiah 49:1-3
    [1]
    Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. [2] And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; [3] And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  20. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Active Member

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    Thanks for these verses! God spoke to me through them about a situation I've been praying about.
     
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