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A Stone Of Stumbling

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by whirlwind, Jul 5, 2010.

  1. JarBreaker

    JarBreaker New Member

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    can you POSSIBLY make this sound more convoluted ?

    showing off your intellect is hardly a way to better show your points if they turn out like this

    When the House of Israel separated and changed the month they observed Sukkoth, and He said "I HATE your feasts ..." He wasnt talking to everyone

    It wasnt meant to edify but to WARN
     
  2. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    I do believe God and try to remain open to His teaching through His Spirit in the elect....and acknowledge them when it is the Scriptures they "refer to." It is why He places us together...to learn and teach. You wrote.....


    I do find a few mentions but regardless of that would question....whether or not mention was found of the two houses why do you see what was so often taught in the Old Testament being made null and void?

    I did find the following (you mentioned) very interesting in Paul's quote from Jeremiah....



    Hebrews 8:7-13 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


    Only the house of Israel. Why? Why not simply Israel as they were before the split if all were included. If they were, as you wrote, "They are one nation, one race, in the plan and mind of God" then why was it stipulated as "house of Israel" and not Israel? I don't know....just asking? :huh:
     
  3. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Who can slip anything by you whirlwind? I would not even attempt to, that's for sure.

    Firstly, there is no author assigned to this letter to the Hebrew ecclesia of the dispersion and Roman overthrow. It is very unlikely, in my mind that it was Paul who wrote this letter, because it does not contain his Gospel or the teachings of justification. It may have been one of his followers and fellow workers, another apostle within the scope of his ministry, for there are several mentioned, and Barnabas comes to mind in that regard. I must point out that correctly dividing the word of truth places this letter among the Circumcision believers, not the Body of Christ, since it is purely Hebrew in its content and view. We can obtain many blessings from reading it, and the truth of God stands, but it does not apply to us. It was written to the Jews who had believed on Christ but were now losing hope of the Kingdom being restored,and the times of refreshing Peter spoke of. It is a letter of encouragment to continue in faith as the ones before had done, until the promise comes. The Jew will always be under the Law and the demands of the Sermon on the Mount. We are not under such a prescription.

    Ac 1:6-7 . When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    The Lord would have said at that time that there was not going to be a restoration in the plan of God, and that the priesthood and rule of Israel over the nations was no longer true. He made no mention of justification or election or a new creation. His response was to say that it was in the hands of His God and theirs, and did not say it would not come. It will come, we can be sure of it. God keeps His word.

    God points to the division in verse 8 but makes His final declaration of the conditions surrounding the new covenant in verse ten. I do not think He is skipping over one to the other, but has them as one nation in mind. His goal from the beginning was one nation as a priesthood over all the earth and other nations, and that goal did not hinge upon the schism of flesh that pervaded the nation, because none can resist His will or intention. He will not perform His work in them til they are one people, like the days of old when He rescued them out of Egypt. The promise was to one nation then, and will always remain so. The Lord grieved that they would not be gathered unto Him over the centuries

    Lk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

    The heart of God and His Son has always been and will ever be for one nation on earth to show forth His Glory. God will have it no other way.

    I cannot fault you for gravitating towards the "two-house" theory, and in the most physical sense it has its basis in fact. But the future that God has in store for Israel does not allow for that division, even though that may be what we "see" now. I personally do not see it, and I agree with James' perception, that they are twelve tribes dispersed among the nations.

    Ja 1:1 . James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,

    So, it is a matter of faith in the plan of God, and His will to perform it, or it is left to human reason and sight, wherein God is no longer the God of Promise to them.

    This is my understanding.

    fivesense



     
  4. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    I don't think you would try to slip anything by anyone FiveSense. Nor would I but I could be mistaken on a point. So, I'm putting on my thinking cap here. :)



    I wasn't aware of any question on the authorship of Hebrews so this is a new consideration. I checked with the source easily available to me, my Companion Bible, to see Bullinger's ideas on this. He disagrees with you so I must leave it there.....I don't know who is correct and doubt I'll spend time trying to find out. I'll have to leave it for more scholarly minds. :blink:


    I will add that on this topic Bullinger stated....

    Addressed. "To the Hebrews": To the nation under it's earliest name, Palestinian Jews and the Diaspora (John 7:35) alike. Outwardly for believers (3:1, 6:9, 10:34 ) it is aimed at waiverers (6:8, 12:15-16, 13:19).



    I agree. It will come but I don't understand what this has to do with the present two house separation and them again becoming one.



    The promise is one nation but when will this happen? When will all be gathered? Jerusalem pertains to all believers for she is His holy city....His one nation. Presently she is divided into two....actually three....Jew, Christian and Gentile. But, the "two sticks" that will become one are Jew and Christian. All Gentiles that become believers...and there are many, become of that one nation.


    I agree.


    Again,I agree that the future doesn't allow for a division (although that division won't be healed until the end of the millennium) but...it is future.

    I believe I'm beginning to understand what you're saying FiveSense. His kingdom on earth NOW is His One Body. His one nation? If that is it then I agree...in part. There remain two sticks, two houses, that must become one in His hand. That will be accomplished.


    James is addressed to all of God's children....His one nation but....some are still "scattered abroad." There remains a split for they/we have not all been gathered under His wing. He'll bring us home.
     
  5. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Whirlwind, E. Bullinger has nothing on you, he was just a man, like you and I, and capable of error as well as the next sincere believer. I hold his insights and teachings in very high regard, but he is not God for us. I am sure that those of the Lutheran faith could, and I suppose they do, rely on Luther for their understandings, and that is O.K. But you are not called to that, it is sonship and reign with Christ that defines you. If he disagrees with me on the authorship of Hebrews, which is Holy Spirit, the I would like to talk to him about it. Since that is not possible, and since there is no sound evidence for his conclusion, then his opinion must yield to reality, and be recognized as equal to mine. It is merely an opinion without any facts. It certainly has no relevence to faith.

    In studying the Holy Writings there is much struggle, and the one who perserveres will obtain. All of what you have Whirlwind, was labored for. It did not come automatically. When Holy Spirit confirmed the Word to your heart, you were enabled to believe. Such is the topic here. It requires a step forward with the discarding of any bias or prejudice we may hold to.

    As I said, God does not look at Israel according as a divided house, and Scripture verifies that. Likewise, neither does He see us, the Body members, as "sinners" any longer. We are, in flesh, sinners, but Paul admonishes us thusly:

    2C 5:16 . Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

    During Paul' early ministry, He was required to go to the Jew first with the Kingdom teaching of the Lord alongside his revelation of the cross of Christ. Until all Israel, including Judah, had rejected the teaching of the Twelve, which Paul faithfully carried forward til he was totally rejected in Acts 28, the flesh had held sway. But Paul would not allow fleshly ties to the Lord's disciples stand in the way of the spiritual message he alone received from the Christ out of heaven. It was a spiritual Kingdom that was take precedence over the earthly one. In it, neither Jew nor Gentile had the superior place, but all were made equal in Spirit. The Lord's Gospel never contained that truth. Neither did the preaching of the Twelve. If you examine the Writings, you will find confirmation to what I am saying. Christ's heavenly Kingdom of the new creation to come was never offered to Israel apart from Paul's teaching and doctrine. Wilt thou restore to Israel the Kingdom? was the only thing on their minds, as it should be.

    The Kingdom we are in is not earthly Whirlwind, Paul makes constant address to that. It is spiritual, and is to be found in heaven, even now. He has seated us among the celestials with all spiritual blessings, not earthly ones. He will aid and assist us here on earth to test and bless, but our citizenship is not here, and our being called out is not for this sphere. Paul is adamant about this. . We are already part of that spiritual new humanity of God that will take the place of the condemned one. We are totally disconnected from eartly promises other than being sustained, outfitted and builded by Him through trials and struggles. Behold, if any man be in Christ, he is a new ktsis, creation. How much firmer a proof is needed? Much, I suppose, and much there is.

    The oneness of the divided house of Israel will not suffer beyond the time of Jacob's trouble. I cannot imagine such an awful and dreadful time of persecution against the Jews leaving any of them unconnected to one another. The terror that they will endure in God's judgment against them will unite them in fear and in faith, the apostate ones being cast into Gehenna at His coming. It is unimaginable that they should remain sectarian and apart during such a time of tribualation. They will rally to one another in desparation and hope, it is certain. Besides, it is His direct statement that He will imbue a new heart and mind in them at His coming that assures us the One God will not suffer division.

    fivesense
     
  6. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    In the capacity of being led by the Holy Spirit I would agree....Bullinger is no more or less led than you or I. However, he is a Biblical scholar and I am not. I would also agree that the Holy Spirit is the writer of Hebrews...or led the writer....but to decide if that was through Paul or another is far past my capabilities so I again say, I leave that to the scholars. You apparently have really studied this...as has Bullinger so, I leave you two to duke it out. :lol:



    I agree and I am searching the Scriptures on this topic as I ask for guidance.



    For "those in the Body" to wilfully sin carries a penalty....

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


    Matthew 3:2 And saying, "Repent ye: for the kingom of heaven is at hand."

    4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.​




    Yes, I understand that His Kingdom is spiritual. We are of that Kingdom as we walk the earth. We have been resurrected to life while in flesh bodies...dead to self, living in Him.




    I don't understand our disagreement on this issue in the light of your statement, "it is His direct statement that He will imbue a new heart and mind in them at His coming that assures us the One God will not suffer division." I contend Scripture shows there is a present division in the two houses and that they will be brought together...is that not what you too are saying?
     
  7. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    First off, I do not allow you to disqualify yourself as a scholar based upon your own observation. A scholar is one who applies him or herself in a discipline and acquires knowledge and becomes learned. You obviously have attained large portions of knowledge and are a very learned person. It is my estimation that you are truly a scholar in fact, though not in the sense of institutional approval or accreditation. This is the reality. Peter and James and the others, as you know, were not men of "letters", and were quite the local yokels. But they did know the Scriptures, and that qualified them in their commission, and not the degrees conferred upon them by men. It is the heart that determines the issue. I do not think your heart is any less qualified to put forth the knowledge of God as you have learned it, the Dr. Bullinger. What may take a man years to come into understanding about the Father, who reveals Himself when He chooses to do so, can be obtained by a Sunday school child whose heart is determined to know the truth. God does not withhold from the humble and submissive seeker of truth. He gives liberally as that is pleasurable to Him. Therefore, I make no allowance for the introduction of the testimony of "great men" in my conversations with others, knowing that their conclusions and understandings come from the same verifiable source, the Word of God, and the ones whom I converse with are more than capable of determining truth on their own.

    The quote of Hebrews 10 is a good example of my position, and lends itself well to the point. I carry forward where you left off:

    Hb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;
    Hb 10:28 any one who did set at nought a law of Moses, apart from mercies, by two or three witnesses, doth die,
    Hb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?

    There is now no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, agreed? If there was such penalty as you state for sin, then the cross for us is null and void, and grace is no longer grace, but law. This is so totally Jewish, this letter. It surprising to me that the simple exercise of keeping that in mind is all that is keeping you from right understanding of this topic. You will receive great light from above, should you be able to correctly divide the word here, and see this letter from a Jewish, earthly perspective.

    "For near is the kingdom" was the constant refrain of the John and Messiah, and violence accompanied it presentation. It was a Kingdom of Law and Ordinances, as the Sermon on the Mount details. It did not come to pass, but was rejected by the Jews other than a remnant. The nearness of the Kingdom faded into non-existence until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The the "nearness" of the Kingdom will become a reality at the end of the period of Gentile election, and there will be nothing to interfere this time, because it won't be graciously offered as before, it will be powerfully enforced by the Son of Mankind at His return to earth. Once more Law and ordinances will be effected in the earth during His reign, and the nations will be discipled according to it.

    Near is not the same as here. The Kingdom of Heaven on earth, according to the Prophets, was offered by the Lord, but never came because it was not accepted:

    Mal 3:1 . Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of host.

    Jn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    It was not implemented by God because it was rejected by men, the men who said "We will do all that the Lord commands us here at Sinai". Three times they swore to do all, and not once did they fulfill. They are guilty of transgressions against God's Holy One. They will be punished.

    Ac 11:19 . Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

    With the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the diaspora left few as a "house" intact. They all went everywhere. There is no separation at this point because God has totally confounded them and dispersed them among the nations. That should be apparent to the reasonable mind. When He does gather them once again, He will not do so according to "house", but according to one nation. The plan of God will prevail, and the distinctions will have disapperared over the centuries by reason of their present affliction. Can you not consider this? The concept of the two-house theory is so remote that the odds would be astronomical.

    As I have posited before, and will again, in the latest revelation of God, the "New Testament", the two houses are no longer a viable factor in the outworkings of God's plan for mankind or Israel. The Record only show one nation, Israel, being addressed throughout the Greek Writings. It should be an easy act of faith towards God to believe His testimony, and rely on the Holy Spirit's record to settle this issue. If you need to discuss it further, I will aid you in sincere desire for you to obtain truth.

    fivesense
     
  8. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    The difference to me is where the scholarship is focused. As for revelation of Scripture I will stand toe to toe with anyone but I will not make a peep when it comes to the study of religion...the when, where and how the writings came about, etc. The who did what and when is out of my realm.




    I agree...there is no more condemnation IF one does not wilfully sin. The law, to my mind, isn't done away with at all. Rather we live the law. It isn't a terrible burden but is our way of life....

    Hebrews 10:16-17 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.​


    It isn't me saying there is a penalty for sin but His Words telling us that for one who has the truth to wilfully sin...does carry a penalty. As to it's being "so totally Jewish," why wouldn't it be? :lol: Paul, of the tribe of Benjamin, was Jewish. However, whether or not he penned Hebrews isn't the consideration. Our Father is the author so having a Jewish slant, to me, isn't to be a deciding factor.


    2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.​

    The covenant mentioned above is prophecy of the scripture.


    I rather like...."Son of Mankind." Well written Fivesense!

    As far as the kingdom fading...I must disagree. Inhabitants of His Kingdom are added daily...and have been for a long time. The kingdom was standing before them and is now within us as believers. The kingdom is here and now. I agree, the nations will be disciplined.



    I don't believe (but could be wrong) that the Kingdom was ever to be an earthly kingdom...at least since the time of Adam and his sin. The kingdom, the King and His dominion, were near to those then as they are now. One need only believe, repent, and follow Him to be of the kingdom.





    In [Revelation 7] our Father tells us that 144,000 of the tribes (the wife) will be sealed...that includes both houses. He also tells us that 144,000 of those redeemed from earth (the virgin), not the tribes, will have His name written on their foreheads. I do believe His testimony and do rely on the Holy Spirit. To me, the two houses isn't a theory at all for it is written....over and over. Nor do I see it as an impossibility for it is a spiritual gathering...not physical. Will they be one. Yes. Will there be one Kingdom, one nation? Yes .

    As for further discussion....I very much enjoy discussing Scripture with you but recognize there may be things we never agree on for we both feel we have "the truth" on certain issues. Hopefully that won't keep us from hashing it all out. :)
     
  9. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Whirlwind, I thoroughly enjoy your attitude and abilitiy to reason together. You remain gracious and considerate at all times, and stimulate others to continue pressing forward in the faith. I will watch you, and you will watch me and we will learn together.

    fivesense
     
  10. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    This morning, as I was working on a new topic, I came across the following and it made me go....hummm?


    Matthew 21:18-20 Now in the morning as He returned into the city, He hungered. And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!​


    This fig tree in the city only had leaves....only had the written word, the law and prophets but no fruit....no spiritual understanding...no Christ. The interesting part is His order, saying it would never produce fruit again...for ever. Who was that fig tree?


    John 15:5 I am the vine, Ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing.
     
  11. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Once again, I appreciate your allowance for difficulties to be marginalized in the attempt to secure truth. It is valuable to you, I know. It is the lamp unto our feet as we tread forward.

    I do not want your agreement on a matter, Whirlwind, I want you to agree with God. My opinion is of no account, but the inability of receiving the word in meekness has caused a lot of trouble for me, and my opinions are always changing when faced with the absolute truths of scripture.

    Ro 8:1 . [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    You quote this passage for supporting your statement, "IF one does not willfully sin". It does not say that here, does it? You add to the word of God, don't you? Can we do that, and believe we are honoring God and His word when we add to it? I cannot do that, it is wrong to do so.

    If you were to realize that it is opinion and not inspiration that caused you to misqoute the passage above, then I would say, O.K., that is what you believe and that's alright, but it is not alright to add to the word of God, and ascribe divine inspiration to it.

    There is tremendous trouble found in such mix-and-match theology, and if God had not already refined His words seven times already, then I could permit such a deviance.

    Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.Ps 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Our need to "hash it out" and resolve our differences will always be the result of ignoring what God has spoken and revealed, and clinging to our own opinions. I guarantee it.

    I will continue to absorb what you have received from the Spirit, but I cannot deviate from what has been revealed:
    Paul is the only Apostle for the nations.(Rom 1:1-5, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:11-12, Gal 1:16, Gal 2:2, Gal 2:8-9, Eph 3:1-8, Col 1:25-27, 1Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11, 2 Tim 4:17)

    Until one comes to an understanding of this basic truth, that Paul alone was sent to the nations, and has the truth for the Body for today, as God had revealed it to him, the "New Testament" remains a textbook for debate and argument among the believers in the Body of Christ. If all would understand and believe the what God has spoken on this matter, our advance forward into adoption and sonship would be phenomenal.

    The only "penalty for sins" will be those of Israel who will be shut out of the Holy City and the Kingdom of Heaven on earth during the Lord's presence during the millennial reign. For those who, like Annanias and Sapphira remain in unbelief and deception, their portion will be with those outside the gates, their inheritance on the earth with the rest of the twelve tribes will be taken away from them and given to others who were faithful.

    Ex 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles'wings, and brought you unto myself. Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Who dare accuse God of making a promise and not following through? Where is the testament or the record of His ever not fulfilling His word in the literal way He spoke it to become? There is none. God has never, not once, failed in keeping His promises, no matter whether the other party did or didn't. He can't, or He would be just like a man.

    No whirlwind, the Kingdom of Heaven will come to be on earth, it will not tarry, and is not yet here. When the Son of David is on the throne that He alone has right to, according to God's promise to David, then shall the Kingdom finally begin. It is not here now, and that is obvious with the wars and murders and corruption and greed that are consuming the world. If the Kingdom were here now, this could not be. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is judgment. There is no justice or judgment anywhere.

    fivesense
     
  12. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    My agreement will always be "with God," even though I do value your opinion. The Scriptures do hold "absolute truths" but we see them through our eyes even as we are led by Him. What may be an absolute truth to one may not be seen as that by another. Why? I don't know.




    No, it doesn't say it there but it does say it in Hebrews. There are those "which are in Christ Jesus," and yet some shall fall and walk after the flesh...fall to temptation. Then they have wilfully sinned....they are no longer "in Christ."


    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.​



    I didn't ascribe Divine inspiration nor was it my opinion. I quoted the written Word.




    I think not FiveSense. By hashing it out I mean to discuss it, to reason together. [Is.1:18] "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:" We are to do this but ALWAYS with His Word. I quoted [Hebrews 10:26] verbatim...no opinion was offered or clung to, nothing was ignored. It is what it is.



    I very much agree that Paul was the only apostle sent to the nations/Gentiles. The nations are Gentiles...ethnic people, mankind. Israel, both houses, are not ethnic people/Gentiles.

    Jeremiah 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.​

    There is Israel (the two houses), Mankind (Gentiles) and the beasts (Satan's crew.) Gentiles who become believers then become of Israel. One family, one body.



    That penalty applies to all who offend no matter if Jew, Israelite or Gentile.




    The Egyptians are Gentiles. Gentiles that "obey His voice," and "keep His covenant" are then of Israel...an adopted son.




    I agree, but why are you testifying to that and at the same time teaching that the two houses, Judah and Israel, are no longer part of His promises when so much is written of them?




    The Kingdom is here now but hasn't yet been "delivered to the Father" for more are being added.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

    Luke 27:20-21 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    1 Corinthians 15:23-25 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

    Colossians 1:12-14 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son: In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​
     
  13. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Hb 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    Hb 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Hb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    Hb 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
    Hb 10:28 He that despised Moses'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    Neither you nor I nor our ancestors despised Moses' law. The Author is speaking to the Hebrews, who had the "the fathers and the prophets. You and I had no such thing. This letter for us was written to them, not to us. This is where all who take this letter to themselves fall into a snare.

    Hb 1:1 . God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    He has not put His laws into our hears and written them in our minds. That is a supernatural operation of God that will occur in Israel at His Son's return to earth. We have the spirit of Christ within us, the earnest of our inheritance. The law of the Spirit far excels over mere obedience to law, there is no need of law ever to be written in the one who possesses the Holy Spirit.

    The Kingdom of the Beloved Son is in the celestials. It is not on earth. His throne presently is in the heavens, where He has seated us with Him, among the celsestials that inhabit that sphere. It is not on earth, yet. That is to come, and it will be ruled over by the house of Israel, united and under the leadership of the Son of David. Those are the facts.

    Keep it comin' whirlwind. You pack a mean quiver.

    fivesense

     
  14. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    All the events happened to Israel as "an example" to us. The admonition is for all of us...Jew, Israelite, Gentile. We are all to learn.

    1Corinthians 10:11-12 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

    Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:​


    I disagree on a number of issues. 1. That He is speaking to the Hebrews only. 2. That our ancestors were not the very ones in the wilderness...for we don't know. 3. I believe we MUST understand that the letter is indeed written to us personally. 4. If we were of the house of Judah, or the house of Israel or Gentile....all sinned, all fell short, for He sent the law and the prophets for all people.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​


    My understanding of these verses.......

    Hebrews 10:10,14,16,18,26 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. (14) For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (16) This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (18) Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

    .....is: We are being told that He offered Himself one time for our sins for...there is "no more offering for sin." Our sins are blotted out upon repentance BUT, IF WE SIN WILLFULLY after that time, after we "have received knowledge of the truth," then..."there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." We pay the penalty. It is after that time (when we receive knowledge) that He puts His laws into our hearts and minds. We live them. They aren't simply written and we're ordered to follow them but we live them. They are part of our life. So where we read.....

    Hebrews 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ​

    ...to me it is saying that before the Advent of Christ...there was no grace, no mercy and now, after His Advent, after His crucifixion, for one to be sanctified and then turn your back and "count it an unholy thing," then...."how much sorer punishment" is in store for that soul!


    But He has FiveSense. After we come to the knowledge of the truth the "supernatural operation of God" happens. He IS the law and prophets for He is the Word and He is in us.

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​



    Yes...the Kingdom is IN the celestials. Who are the celestials? We are. He is in us now. We have been translated to His kingdom while walking under the sun. It has to happen before our physical death or it is too late. If we are to be of the "first resurrection" then we are resurrected while in our flesh bodies....


    Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son​
    :


    We are spiritually alive and will not see death...spiritual death. We have been translated...we have been resurrected.
     
  15. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Whirlwind, you stated in your post the following:

    For those in the Body to wilfully sin carries a penalty....

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Whirlwind, I am sorry, I suppose it would have been better said, You misapply scripture, instead of misquote. When you combined "in the Body' to wilfully sin carries a penalty", with Hebrews 10:26 following, makes it appear as if the two are one when they are from separate passages.There is no mention of "the Body" of Christ in Hebrews. For that reason, I concluded you had misquoted in order to supply support to your opinion.

    fivesense​

    Whirlwind, thank you for staying with me on this subject. I enjoy your vigor. My perspective is dispensational and literal, and I see that that conflicts with yours. I will continue to look for those nuggets you uncover in your time with the Scriptures and God. Maybe at some point you will lower your armour to me and I may give to you peace and not a sword. You are a great example to many.

    fivesense
     
  16. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    I see. I'm sorry I didn't explain it clearly but to me the scripture isn't misapplied. My thoughts are that when "we have received the knowledge of the truth" then we are in the body of Christ. We have received truth...Him. After having received truth and choosing to "wilfully sin" then "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."



    Fivesense...why do you see me in armour to you? I consider you a brother, a fellow soldier in this fight, another of His "peculiar people."
     
  17. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    I appreciate your leniency with me, whirlwind. It is encouraging. The vast difference between what Paul has given to us, and what the Circumcision people have yet to obtain is what provokes me to write what I do. The light I have received concerning the differences comes as an act of mercy and grace towards me from God. I did not go to school or attend someones workshop, nor did I want the burden of Paul upon me. It came out of a desire to know truth according to the heart of God, and not men. The contradictions that cause separation and division in the Body had plagued my heart and mind for many years, and just got worse. Therefore, I resolved to discard my opinions and beliefs and start fresh, with the Original Writings of the three oldest manuscripts and a concordance. It changed everything and most all my conflicts have been concluded.

    The Body of Christ as a whole needs adjustment. The plan of God for the elect of the nations is unique and unparalled in the Writings. Salvation in Christ towards a heavenly habitation is ours alone til He finishes His work with Israel. Our focus needs to be on our spiritual blessings and away from the earth. All Israels blessings of the New Covenant pertain to the earth and we will not share in their glory. Likewise, they will not enjoy our celestial privileges in Christ. The scriptures are very clear about this. One day in the future, we all will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, Gentile and Jew alike, along with the rest of mankind, but the plan of God to demonstrate His power and glory must be displayed to the entire universe in portions, and our circumstances at this time are meant to bring Him acclaim for the eons.

    I speak in a figure of your armour. It is the strength and uniformity of your mental acumen that you have honed over the years from discipline and effort that is recognizable to all. But for me, it is the thing that can prevent the entrance of greater light when the armour becomes the identity and not the instrument of faith. When you come to reign with Christ in your transformed body, the truths that are Christ Himself that He formed in you and garrisoned your heart with will become the instrument of His celestial power. The more we advance in truth through His achievement in us now, the greater the glory of both Him and us in that heavenly realm.

    I am honored that you consider me one of like-minded faith, whirlwind. I will always try to keep you directed towards Him and not me in our conversations. God be blessed forever.

    fivesense
     
  18. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    FiveSense....I wanted to add that I believe what is being taught in....


    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​


    ....concerns the unpardonable sin. Only God's elect can commit that sin which is why in Hebrews it concerns those that "have received the knowledge of the truth."
     
  19. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    I only ask that you consider who it was that was being spoken to...
    What was the act that brought about this judgment...
    Who, other than the Jews, have seen the Lord at work in His fleshly body with their own eyes, and yet denied His power to heal and save?
    If I was attendant to the miracles and healings, and turned around and said "He hath a devil", then I suppose that being cut off from the Promises to Israel would certainly be in order.

    fivesense
     
  20. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    You must distinguish true Jews from those that say they are Jews...and do lie. To know this is the key of David:

    Revelation 2:8-9 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    Revelation 3:7-9 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​


    When Christ addressed the "Jews," while teaching of the unforgiveable sin, He was speaking to.....

    Matthew 12:24,34 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.​

    Christ further told us who these Pharisees actually were when He said.....

    12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.​


    They were those saying they were Jews but do lie. They were....

    John 8:40-44 But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to Him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. ​


    What do you consider my armour that prevents further knowledge? How is it my "identity?"

    Please continue to keep me directed towards Him. It's the best path to walk. :)
     
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