A Study of Peter's sermon at Pentecost

[H. Richard]

Peter's sermon on Pentecost:
-
I believe that Peter's sermon has been taken out of context and used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. This article is my attempt to prove that it has to be read “IN CONTEXT.“
-
(was it to the Jews and the Gentiles, or just to the Jews?)
-
Acts 2:31-38 (NKJV)
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
'Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'
-
-- In the above Peter is testifying to the “”Jews”” that Jesus is the promised Christ.
-
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
-
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
-
-- Peter tells the Jews they have crucified the Lord of Glory. The Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone """for crucifying Jesus."""
-
38 ""THEN"" Peter said to “”THEM,”” (them = the Jews) "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
-
-- Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned.
-
-- The Jews were to fulfill a Jewish ritual of water cleansing (water baptism), a ritual under the Law of Moses, and at the same time they were to 'acknowledge' Jesus as the Christ by performing a water cleansing ritual (baptism) in His name.
-
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." --- Note, the promises were made to the Jews only.
-
-- Peter's sermon included verse 39 which was taken from Joel 2:28-29 and was about the ""promise of the Holy Spirit"" that was to be “”given to the Jews.”” Verse 39 was to assure the Jews that their sin of rejecting Jesus would be forgiven and that they would also be given the Holy Spirit (see verse 38). Joel 2:28-3:1
-
Many theologians teach that Peter was including the Gentiles in verse 39. But how can that be true since it was necessary for God, at a later date, to give Peter a dream to teach him that the Gentiles were included. Acts 10:9-16
-
Although it was the Gentiles that actually killed Jesus they did it because the Jews insisted. The Gentiles did not need to repent for what the Jews did. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles therefore the Gentiles had not rejected Him. (Matt 10:5-7) (Matt 15:23-24) (Rom 15:8)
-
Matthew 27:24-25 (NKJV)
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it."
Note this verse:
25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."
-
-- Verse 25 above is important.
-
Peter's sermon has been used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized in many of the Christian Religious churches. It has become a “FORMULA” to be repeated in order to be saved. This formula is stated as a commandment in their theological statement.
-
I know that some will reject this writing. But IMHO, I don't think Peter's sermon is appropriate or valid for this age of grace and those that use it are preaching a sermon that was preached to the Jews, those that had Christ crucified, as if it also applies to the Gentiles. IMHO, that is a blatant falsehood because it is not the truth. IMHO = In my honest opinion.
-
Then how is one saved in this age of God’s grace? Rom 10:8-13
-
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." NKJV
-
There is nothing in Rom 10:8-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance.

 

[Trekson]

Hi H. Richard, Your argument has one major flaw.

Matt. 28:19-20 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

 

[justaname]

Context is key in interpretation yet we must keep the full narrative in mind also.

Jesus had a forerunner in John the Baptist. Luke speaks of his ministry in this way.

2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways,
6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" - Luke 3:2-6

So then these Jews were prepared through both baptism and repentance before Peter's sermon. But let me express I agree with most of your post. I agree people apply this Acts passage improperly.

I differ in your view of verse 39 though. It can easily be said Peter did not understand the prophetic utterance given by the Holy Spirit through him speaking of those "afar off, and as many as God will call".

Speaking of the Romans passage Paul had a different type of forerunner. He writes previously:

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. - Romans 3:31

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. - Romans 6:1-4

10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. - Romans 6:10-13

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. - Romans 6:19

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:6-8

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. - Romans 8:12-13

You will notice all these quotes are from the book of Romans before the 10:9 passage. So then Paul also had a forerunner so to speak.

This is why it is important for the unbeliever to first understand they are a sinner in need of a Savior. Look to chapter 3 and all the groundwork Paul and the Holy Spirit lays convincing the reader we are all consigned under sin. We must repent from sin and our sinful desires and turn to Christ in faith. Here then is where Romans 10:9-13 comes into being.

Now I do not argue baptism is a requirement for salvation. Romans 10:9-13 is clear and we need not add to it. But we must keep in mind how the reader was previously prepared before that passage.


Shalom!

 

[H. Richard]

Hi H. Richard, Your argument has one major flaw.

Matt. 28:19-20 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Thanks for reading the study.

Yes I know Jesus said this to the 12, but the 12 were to start with the nation of Israel and then to the world. Israel, the nation, was to be a light to the Gentiles. I believe it will happen when Jesus comes back and sets up the promised kingdom in Israel.

Don't you find it interesting that every time Paul went to Jerusalem the 12 were there too. I also take into consideration that Jesus allowed the Temple to be destroyed because the Jews refuse to believe the 12.

It is also recorded that the 12 and Paul made an agreement that the 12 would go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentile. If that is true then the 12 did not go into all the world since most of the world was Gentile.

Gal 2:9
9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
NKJV

What do you make of that agreement?

 

[H. Richard]

Context is key in interpretation yet we must keep the full narrative in mind also.

Jesus had a forerunner in John the Baptist. Luke speaks of his ministry in this way.

2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways,
6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" - Luke 3:2-6

So then these Jews were prepared through both baptism and repentance before Peter's sermon. But let me express I agree with most of your post. I agree people apply this Acts passage improperly.

I differ in your view of verse 39 though. It can easily be said Peter did not understand the prophetic utterance given by the Holy Spirit through him speaking of those "afar off, and as many as God will call".

Speaking of the Romans passage Paul had a different type of forerunner. He writes previously:

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. - Romans 3:31

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. - Romans 6:1-4

10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. - Romans 6:10-13

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. - Romans 6:19

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:6-8

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. - Romans 8:12-13

You will notice all these quotes are from the book of Romans before the 10:9 passage. So then Paul also had a forerunner so to speak.

This is why it is important for the unbeliever to first understand they are a sinner in need of a Savior. Look to chapter 3 and all the groundwork Paul and the Holy Spirit lays convincing the reader we are all consigned under sin. We must repent from sin and our sinful desires and turn to Christ in faith. Here then is where Romans 10:9-13 comes into being.

Now I do not argue baptism is a requirement for salvation. Romans 10:9-13 is clear and we need not add to it. But we must keep in mind how the reader was previously prepared before that passage.


Shalom!

You said; "those "afar off, and as many as God will call" It is an assumption that Peter was thinking about Gentiles at that time. Peter had no idea that God would call the Gentles. The vision given to him later is proof of that.

You said; "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. - Romans 3:31" How are we upholding the Law; is it physically or spiritually? The Law condemns those who have no faith in God's promise of grace. We are those that have faith in God's promises. The law is physical, faith is spiritual.

You posted, "1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" My question is how can we break the law if we are dead to it?

You posted; "2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" That is the question. The answer is simple. We are either living in a self-righteous life of thinking we do not sin any more or we are living in the spirit knowing that our sins of the flesh have been taken care of By Jesus on the cross. One is the way of the flesh and the other the way of the spirit and we see this in what you posted :
"6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:6-8"

 

[Trekson]

Hi HR, Your words: "Yes I know Jesus said this to the 12, but the 12 were to start with the nation of Israel and then to the world. Israel, the nation, was to be a light to the Gentiles. I believe it will happen when Jesus comes back and sets up the promised kingdom in Israel."

We don't have to wait because through Christ it has already been done. There is no other light than Christ to bring. All the spiritual promises made to Israel were fulfilled at Pentecost through the first several thousand that were saved. Yes, the nation of Israel still has some millennial blessings to receive but not until they accept Christ as a nation.

Your words: "It is also recorded that the 12 and Paul made an agreement that the 12 would go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentile. If that is true then the 12 did not go into all the world since most of the world was Gentile."

Consider this. At Pentecost there were Jews in Jerusalem from every major nation around. Through the ministry of the disciples to them, they then went back home to their nations and proceeded to spread the gospel. In a way, you could say they were the fruit of the disciples and they spread seed throughout the nations of the world so while many of them didn't go physically,, their fruit did and in this manner the disciples accomplished the Great Commission.

 

[H. Richard]

Hi HR, Your words: "Yes I know Jesus said this to the 12, but the 12 were to start with the nation of Israel and then to the world. Israel, the nation, was to be a light to the Gentiles. I believe it will happen when Jesus comes back and sets up the promised kingdom in Israel."

We don't have to wait because through Christ it has already been done. There is no other light than Christ to bring. All the spiritual promises made to Israel were fulfilled at Pentecost through the first several thousand that were saved. Yes, the nation of Israel still has some millennial blessings to receive but not until they accept Christ as a nation.

Your words: "It is also recorded that the 12 and Paul made an agreement that the 12 would go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentile. If that is true then the 12 did not go into all the world since most of the world was Gentile."

Consider this. At Pentecost there were Jews in Jerusalem from every major nation around. Through the ministry of the disciples to them, they then went back home to their nations and proceeded to spread the gospel. In a way, you could say they were the fruit of the disciples and they spread seed throughout the nations of the world so while many of them didn't go physically,, their fruit did and in this manner the disciples accomplished the Great Commission.

It is very important to know just what the Jews were saying to other Jews. All the Jews had to do was to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King. That is the gospel the the Jews preached in the 4 gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts.

However the nation of Israel refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and king. So after about 40 years God destroyed the Temple and then He turned the the world outside of the Jews and the Jewish religion. That is what the parable of the barren fig tree was all about.

Luke 13:6-9
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" NKJV

Jesus spent 3 years in His ministry to the nation of Israel (the fig tree) and they did not accept Him as their king. After His crucifixion His apostles had about 40 years to dig around it. But it never happened so God concluded that all had sinned and therefore He could offer salvation by grace to all. Up until this time the only way a Gentile could be saved was through a saved Jew. Now everyone is on a level playing field.


By the way, show me where in the 4 gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts where Jesus and the 12 said we are no longer under the Law of Moses. And I don't mean an assumption on your part. Since you won't find it then only Paul said we are no longer under the Law.

 

[justaname]

You said; "those "afar off, and as many as God will call" It is an assumption that Peter was thinking about Gentiles at that time. Peter had no idea that God would call the Gentles. The vision given to him later is proof of that.

You said; "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. - Romans 3:31" How are we upholding the Law; is it physically or spiritually? The Law condemns those who have no faith in God's promise of grace. We are those that have faith in God's promises. The law is physical, faith is spiritual.

You posted, "1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" My question is how can we break the law if we are dead to it?

You posted; "2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" That is the question. The answer is simple. We are either living in a self-righteous life of thinking we do not sin any more or we are living in the spirit knowing that our sins of the flesh have been taken care of By Jesus on the cross. One is the way of the flesh and the other the way of the spirit and we see this in what you posted :
"6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:6-8"

Speaking of Peter. I am not assuming he had the Gentiles in mind, rather the Holy Spirit had the Gentiles in mind.

Speaking to the rest of the post. My intention is to show we are to repent from sin. This portion of this verse shows we are:

13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. - Romans 6:13

Look also to this verse...

6 He will render to each one according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. - Romans 2:6-8

 

[Trekson]

Hi HR, Your words: "Jesus spent 3 years in His ministry to the nation of Israel (the fig tree) and they did not accept Him as their king. After His crucifixion His apostles had about 40 years to dig around it. But it never happened so God concluded that all had sinned and therefore He could offer salvation by grace to all. Up until this time the only way a Gentile could be saved was through a saved Jew. Now everyone is on a level playing field."

Your timing is a little off here. God showed Peter that salvation was also for the Gentiles when he had the vision that sent him to Cornelius, Acts 10. Just prior to that in Acts 9:15, Paul is given his commission to the Gentiles. The point is, salvation through Christ was offered to the Gentiles well before 70AD. Also, once Christ was crucified, a Jew just accepting Christ as Messiah and King wasn't good enough. They had to receive Him as Lord and Savior. Also once the crucifixion occurred being a national Jew meant nothing, it became an individual offer of salvation.

Your words: "By the way, show me where in the 4 gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts where Jesus and the 12 said we are no longer under the Law of Moses. And I don't mean an assumption on your part. Since you won't find it then only Paul said we are no longer under the Law."

You're right, it's not there. However, that is because Christ lived, preached and died under the law, so that we may be set free from the law as Paul taught. Once the law was completed and fulfilled eternally by His death and resurrection, the age of grace began.

 

[H. Richard]

Speaking of Peter. I am not assuming he had the Gentiles in mind, rather the Holy Spirit had the Gentiles in mind.

Speaking to the rest of the post. My intention is to show we are to repent from sin. This portion of this verse shows we are:

13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. - Romans 6:13

Look also to this verse...

6 He will render to each one according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. - Romans 2:6-8

I do not accept your opinion. If you are sure that Peter had the Gentiles in mind on the day of Pentecost then show the scriptures that support it. Those afar off are the Jews because only they were given the promises.

I have stated that Peter did not know the Gentiles were included until he had a vision that told him so. When do you think he had that vision, before or after Pentecost?

It seems to me that you are big on condemning others for sins of the flesh and that others are to repent while you are oblivious to your own sins. Why is that? You are big on man's works to save and keep a person saved but not very big on accepting what the scriptures say and to whom the words are directed to. Can't you see what saying we are dead to the law means? If dead then we are no longer condemned by any of the sins of the flesh.

Under grace anyone can be saved by trusting in what Jesus did on the cross. It is perfectly fair to everyone. Jesus did for all of mankind what mankind could not do for themselves. But it seems to me that some think they can do it themselves. That is self seeking trying to establish the person's own righteousness by doing works to save themselves

 

[justaname]

I do not accept your opinion. If you are sure that Peter had the Gentiles in mind on the day of Pentecost then show the scriptures that support it. Those afar off are the Jews because only they were given the promises.

I have stated that Peter did not know the Gentiles were included until he had a vision that told him so. When do you think he had that vision, before or after Pentecost?

It seems to me that you are big on condemning others for sins of the flesh and that others are to repent while you are oblivious to your own sins. Why is that? You are big on man's works to save and keep a person saved but not very big on accepting what the scriptures say and to whom the words are directed to. Can't you see what saying we are dead to the law means? If dead then we are no longer condemned by any of the sins of the flesh.

Under grace anyone can be saved by trusting in what Jesus did on the cross. It is perfectly fair to everyone. Jesus did for all of mankind what mankind could not do for themselves. But it seems to me that some think they can do it themselves. That is self seeking trying to establish the person's own righteousness by doing works to save themselves

This post is useless to our discussion. It does nothing but attempt to attack me rather than address the Scriptures I posted.

Please re-read my initial responses and formulate a better argument for your case if you desire continued dialogue.

My argument is Paul does instruct us to repent from sin.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:12-14

Meditate on verse 12 here. Paul is telling his readers to repent from sin.

Concerning Peter's sermon re-read my response. I never said Peter had the Gentiles in mind, you are the only one stating this, not me. Straw-man...

 

[H. Richard]

This post is useless to our discussion. It does nothing but attempt to attack me rather than address the Scriptures I posted.

Please re-read my initial responses and formulate a better argument for your case if you desire continued dialogue.

My argument is Paul does instruct us to repent from sin.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:12-14

Meditate on verse 12 here. Paul is telling his readers to repent from sin.

Concerning Peter's sermon re-read my response. I never said Peter had the Gentiles in mind, you are the only one stating this, not me. Straw-man..

You are trying to make what I wrote to be changed to what you wish to talk about. That is an affront to me as well.

This thread was not on the subject of repentance. Repentance is not a ritual, it is a continuous attitude of knowing you live in sinful flesh and thanking Jesus for what He did for us on the cross.

 

[justaname]

Here are a few quotes from the OP:

"-- Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned."


"There is nothing in Rom 10:8-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance."


Repentance is a theme you instituted in the OP. I am simply discussing what you have stated and challenging it. The only affront I present is against your indirect way of removing repentance from sin from proper Christian conduct and thinking.

This is also from our beloved Paul:

22 abstain from every form of evil.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Th 5:22). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Repentance is a change of mind; A renewed attitude in direct opposition to the former attitude; A 180 degree turn from a particular direction or disposition. You seem to confuse repentance with continued faith or abiding.

Repentance is the key factor in turning to Christ for salvation. One must first recognize they are a sinner in need of a Savior. This is why John the Baptist paved the way for Jesus' ministry. This is why Paul spent the opening of his epistle to the Romans presenting the sin problem. It is not something to be slighted simply because you make a proclamation about the Christ. I recognize such a proclamation without repentance from sin a false conviction void of the Spirit and void of true conviction to the claim. Christ did not die for us to abide in sin rather we abide in Him.

 

[H. Richard]

Here are a few quotes from the OP:

"-- Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned."


"There is nothing in Rom 10:8-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance."


Repentance is a theme you instituted in the OP. I am simply discussing what you have stated and challenging it. The only affront I present is against your indirect way of removing repentance from sin from proper Christian conduct and thinking.

This is also from our beloved Paul:

22 abstain from every form of evil.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Th 5:22). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Repentance is a change of mind; A renewed attitude in direct opposition to the former attitude; A 180 degree turn from a particular direction or disposition. You seem to confuse repentance with continued faith or abiding.

Repentance is the key factor in turning to Christ for salvation. One must first recognize they are a sinner in need of a Savior. This is why John the Baptist paved the way for Jesus' ministry. This is why Paul spent the opening of his epistle to the Romans presenting the sin problem. It is not something to be slighted simply because you make a proclamation about the Christ. I recognize such a proclamation without repentance from sin a false conviction void of the Spirit and void of true conviction to the claim. Christ did not die for us to abide in sin rather we abide in Him.

I agree that a person has to recognize that they are sinners in need of salvation. But that salvation was paid for on the cross.

Placing belief, faith, trust, and confidence in what Jesus did on the cross is proclaiming Jesus AND His work on the cross.

Why repent of sins of the flesh when they have already been paid for on the cross and are not charged to you? The attitude of the child of God is knowing that they live in a body of sinful flesh but are thankful to Jesus in that He paid for those sins. If I say I need to repent of sins that have already been paid for I am saying that they haven't been paid until I repent. Is it your idea, that if you don't repent sins are not paid for?

Since you said "The only affront I present is against your indirect way of removing repentance from sin from proper Christian conduct and thinking." I take it you do not believe your sins have already been paid in full on the cross and that your act of repentance pays for them.

 

[justaname]

I agree that a person has to recognize that they are sinners in need of salvation. But that salvation was paid for on the cross.

Placing belief, faith, trust, and confidence in what Jesus did on the cross is proclaiming Jesus AND His work on the cross.

Why repent of sins of the flesh when they have already been paid for on the cross and are not charged to you? The attitude of the child of God is knowing that they live in a body of sinful flesh but are thankful to Jesus in that He paid for those sins. If I say I need to repent of sins that have already been paid for I am saying that they haven't been paid until I repent. Is it your idea, that if you don't repent sins are not paid for?

Since you said "The only affront I present is against your indirect way of removing repentance from sin from proper Christian conduct and thinking." I take it you do not believe your sins have already been paid in full on the cross and that your act of repentance pays for them.

Do you recognize how you are attempting to reason your way out of repenting from sin instead of accepting the Scriptures?

Christ died for the sin of the world. He died once to sin. Our repentance is not the condition for salvation rather our faith. Repentance leads to faith. Yet this does not negate these commands given:

22 abstain from every form of evil. - 1 Thessalonians 5:22

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:12-14

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. - Romans 6:19

Paul is not speaking about self-righteousness as if that is the only sin a Christian can commit. All sin is in mind here. And Paul is clear:

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. - Romans 8:12-13


As to your final statement you are incorrect, you take it wrong. Are you attempting to live a lifestyle in disregard to sin? Are you attempting to maintain your fleshly desires while proclaiming Christ crucified? Or have you given your fleshly desires up for abandonment in the desire to live in, and by, and through the Spirit?

Mine is not to judge you for only God can rightly do such, yet you can judge for yourself the direction of your hearts desire. If you live for sin then sin is your master and a proclamation of faith is invalid for it is without the Spirit and power. If you live for God then by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body because the Spirit and God's laws are in agreement. Christ does not give us a license to sin rather the Spirit and power to overcome it.

No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. -1 Corinthians 10:13

 

[H. Richard]

No. 1 : As to your final statement you are incorrect, you take it wrong. Are you attempting to live a lifestyle in disregard to sin? Are you attempting to maintain your fleshly desires while proclaiming Christ crucified? Or have you given your fleshly desires up for abandonment in the desire to live in, and by, and through the Spirit?

No. 2 : Mine is not to judge you for only God can rightly do such, yet you can judge for yourself the direction of your hearts desire. If you live for sin then sin is your master and a proclamation of faith is invalid for it is without the Spirit and power. If you live for God then by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body because the Spirit and God's laws are in agreement. Christ does not give us a license to sin rather the Spirit and power to overcome it.

No. 1; You fail to understand that it is not my disregarding sins in my flesh, it is regarding that Jesus has already paid for those sins. It is you who want to say I am disregarding my sins. I live in a body with a sinful nature and it sins (Romans 7). But I have placed my life in Christ who has already paid for my sins of the flesh. I have been set free from the condemnation of my sins of the flesh and I am resting in the work of Jesus on the cross. I refuse to let you or anyone else bring me back under the law of sin and death (Romans 7).

No. 2 ; Who said anything about living to sin? Is that what you think I am doing? You ARE judging me because I do not fall for your religious belief that you must do something to get out of the condemnation of sins of the flesh. You do not think they are paid for UNTIL you do an act of repentance. That is denying that Jesus has already paid for those sins.

It is the religious that refuse to comprehend and give glory to God by reducing salvation to the works of man instead of the work of Jesus on the cross. Most want to boast in their religious beliefs and practices but I will boast only of what Jesus has done for me. I see the difference in what people on forums say. Most talk about keeping the law and repentance and the things a person has to do for salvation. Very few are on forums talking about the wonderful salvation that God purchased for all of mankind when He let His Son shed His blood to pay for the sins of the world. Wake up people, the question that God asks is what have you done with the shed blood of His Son. Have you placed your faith, trust, confidence in what Jesus did or have you placed your faith, trust and confidence in what you do?

 

[justaname]

H.R.,

#1
I posed questions not accusations. Your comment about living in a body with a sinful nature (Romans 7) is not an excuse. Just read Romans 8

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" - Romans 8:12-15

Are you led by the flesh or the Spirit?

#2
Here I used an "if" condition. Please re-read if you are confused.

Then you made another false accusation against me here. Jesus paid for the sin of the world on the cross, but that is not a license for sin. Perhaps you might benefit from reading this:

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. - 1 John 2:1-6

 

[H. Richard]

H.R.,

#1
I posed questions not accusations. Your comment about living in a body with a sinful nature (Romans 7) is not an excuse. Just read Romans 8

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" - Romans 8:12-15

Are you led by the flesh or the Spirit?

#2
Here I used an "if" condition. Please re-read if you are confused.

Then you made another false accusation against me here. Jesus paid for the sin of the world on the cross, but that is not a license for sin. Perhaps you might benefit from reading this:

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. - 1 John 2:1-6

John 14:20
20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and “”you in Me“”, and I in you.
NKJV
-
2 Cor 1:19-22
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you ""in Christ"" and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
(NKJ)
-
I look at the words ""in Christ"" and think of them in reference to Noah and the flood.
-
Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he (Noah) had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.
-
Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch (condemn) them.
-
Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.
-
I believe what Paul said when he penned the words ""in Christ."" I also believe that we are placed ""in Christ"" by God. It is an operation (baptism) of the Holy Spirit (God).
-
This is how I see it and I hope you can see it too.
-
*********
-
Selected verses with the words “in Christ” in them.
-
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life ""in Christ"" Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
(NKJ)
-
It is not that we no longer live and sin in the flesh, it is that since we are in Christ we are walking in the Spirit (faith in Jesus’ work on the cross) and have no confidence in our flesh. Walking in the Spirit is the same as walking (having confidence) in the work of Christ on the cross.
-
Eph 1:10
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things ""in Christ,"" both which are in heaven and which are on earth-- ""in Him.""
(NKJ)
-
When we are placed “in Christ” by the holy Spirit we are holy and without blame because He loves us and covers our sins of the flesh with His blood shed on the cross.
-
Psalms 23
1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life; And I will dwell in the house of the Lord Forever.
NKJV
-
In verse 4 the shadow of death is the condemnation of the Law. In verse 5 the enemy is Satan.
-
Rom 12:5
5 so we, being many, are one body ""in Christ,"" and individually members of one another.
(NKJ)
-
Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were ""in Christ"" before me.
(NKJ)
-
1 Cor 1:28-31
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
(NKJ)
-
1 Cor 3:1
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes ""in Christ.""
(NKJ)
-
1 Cor 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so ""in Christ"" all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
(NKJ)
-
2 Cor 5:16-18
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is ""in Christ,"" he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
(NKJ)
-
Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles ""in Christ"" Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(NKJ)
-
Gal 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one ""in Christ"" Jesus.
(NKJ)
-
Gal 5:5-6
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For ""in Christ"" Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (God’s love, not ours)
(NKJ)
-
The love mentioned is God’s love for us. It is our faith working through God’s love.
-
Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us ""in Him"" before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
(NKJ)
-
Colossians 2:9-11
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
(Not Legalism but Christ)
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision “””made without hands,””” by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
NKJV
-
Verse 11 does not mean the WE put off the sins of the body. God does that when He puts us “”in Christ”.
-
You won't accept this either because you love your religion and it's requirements more than God

 

[H. Richard]

H.R.,

#1
I posed questions not accusations. Your comment about living in a body with a sinful nature (Romans 7) is not an excuse. Just read Romans 8

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" - Romans 8:12-15

Are you led by the flesh or the Spirit?

#2
Here I used an "if" condition. Please re-read if you are confused.

Then you made another false accusation against me here. Jesus paid for the sin of the world on the cross, but that is not a license for sin. Perhaps you might benefit from reading this:

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. - 1 John 2:1-6

So, in your mind living in the spirit is works of the flesh to be good. You don't know what it means to be led by the Spirit. You think it is doing works of the flesh. When did the flesh become the spirit?

You posted; "by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

That means you think you are being led by the spirit. That is to say your flesh is living by the spirit.

Gal 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
NKJV

 

[FHII]

It boggles my mind how anyone tries to justify works with Romans 8. The only way it can be attempted is by selecting a verse or two out of the chapter and ignoring the rest.

Paul says in that chaper that, " ...they that are in the flesh cannot please God, but ye are not in the flesh but in the spirit..." yet he wasn't writing to Roman ghosts; he was writing to living beings who were still in the flesh. And he said they weren't.

Thus.... When is says, "we are debtors to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die..." its not talking about your efforts to stop sinning; its talking about grace covering your sins.