A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[mailmandan]

Titus said: The problem Dan is your ignorance of the scriptures.

Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard for to understand. The problem is it's hard for you to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

You have a preconceived doctrine that teaches those Ephesians were saved without doing anything.

Did Paul say saved by grace through faith "plus doing something"? NO. Paul said "not of works" lest anyone should boast.

If you were a good Bible student would know that Paul taught the gospel to those Ephesians.
You would also know where in the Bible their conversion is recorded.
But you dont. That's why you assume they were saved by faith and no obedience to God.

As Paul said in Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Nothing there about faith + obedience/works.

Stop listening to your Biblically ignorant church statements of faith and just believe what the Bible says.

You mean your Biblically ignorant church statements of faith - 4 step false gospel plan that culminates in works salvation (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism). I had temporarily attended the so called church of Christ several years ago and it seemed like water baptism was just about the only thing they talked about.

Here is the Ephesians conversion to Christ,
Acts 19:1-7,
- And it happened while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus, and finding some disciples he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? So the Ephesians said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. And Paul said to them, Into what then were you baptized? So the Ephesians said, "Into John's baptism.
Why were they baptized into John's baptism and not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
It is because they were taught by Apollos. Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism, he only knew about John's baptism.
John's baptism was already ended when Apollos baptized the Ephesians in the name of John.
Therefore Paul had to educate them on the gospel of Jesus' baptism.

The text says "some disciples." Now in verse 2, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then "afterwards" baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. This isn't about salvation by water baptism here.

Note: Apollos taught them to believe in Jesus.
But Apollos did not know about Jesus' baptism, he only knew of John's.

Again, they had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. They also had not even heard there is a Holy Spirit. (vs. 2) They needed to believe the gospel before they were re-baptized.

Go back to chapter 18. READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER.
It proves what I am telling you as the word of God.
Acts 18:26,
- So Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquilia and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Apollos knew only the baptism of John yet when Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

This is why Paul must educate the Ephesians on Jesus' gospel.
Remember Apollos already taught them to believe in Jesus just as John the baptizer taught.
Mark 1:7,
John the baptizer preached Jesus to the jews,
- And John preached saying "There is One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stop down and loose, I indeed baptize you with water but Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Well, these disciples of John obviously had not yet believed in Jesus unto salvation but after Paul taught them about Jesus they did.

Now back to Paul proclaiming the WHOLE gospel of Christ to the Ephesians, Acts 19:1-7,
-So they said into John's baptism.

The whole gospel? You man a different gospel. A "works based" false gospel of salvation by water baptism.

Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after me, that is ON CHRIST JESUS.
verse 5,
- WHEN THEY HEARD THIS THEY WERE BAPTIZED (WATER) IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.
and when Paul laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied,
Now the men were about twelve in all.

Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10) and it did signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church. The Jews did not accept the Samaritans.

When did the Ephesians believe in Jesus?
Answer when Apollos taught them to believe in Jesus.

And not before. They were not genuine believers until then.

When did the Ephesians get the Holy Spirit?
Answer after they were water baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.

Exception, not the rule. There was a delay in receiving the Holy Spirit until Paul laid hands on them, just as we see a delay in receiving the Holy Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them in Acts 8:16-17 as well.

Paul did not teach them to just believe only and you will be saved.
That's an assumption folks make in Ephesians 2:8-9!

So saved by grace through faith, not works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) really means saved by grace through faith and works? Yeah right! You don't understand plain Scripture.

Paul taught them the whole gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:15-16.
Then after they obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul laid hands on them to recieve the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

All you do is gravitate to your pet verses on baptism and ignore a multitude of verses that clearly teach we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." The church of Christ has really done a number on you! I've heard Roman Catholics say the whole gospel after they add works to it and I've heard Mormons say fullness of the gospel after they add works to it as well. Still not seeing the red flag?

Once again, in Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also once again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Nothing there about water baptism.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: They were baptized into Christ, Galatians 3:26-27.
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. "Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well. (Romans 13:14) Right? NO. Let's be consistent. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11) The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor he is imitating his superiors and is revealing himself to be a soldier. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one become a soldier. Once one is made a soldier one is then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications. So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14. If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

The Bible teaches you are not IN Christ until you are baptized into Christ.

You assume this means water baptized into the body of Christ. So do Roman Catholics and Mormons. Still no red flag? We are baptized by one Spirit into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13) the body of Christ. We are not literally water baptized into the body of Christ, just as the Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2) Being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior.

They were not saved by faith in Jesus alone.

Yes they were. Galatians 3:26 - for you are all sons of God through faith (apart from additions or modifications) in Christ Jesus. Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Not faith + works.

Paul had to teach them the whole gospel so that they were water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Paul had to teach them the gospel so that they could be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ "afterwards." Up until that time, they did not truly believe the gospel.

If they were saved when Apollos taught them to believe on Jesus.
Then why does Paul come and teach them correctly about why they needed to be baptized into Jesus' baptism and not John's baptism?

Baptism in Jesus' baptism follows saving belief, just as it did in Acts 10:43-47. It's not about a particular saving baptism but about believing the gospel first then receiving Jesus baptism. These disciples were not previously, properly instructed about Jesus.

Paul knew they needed to hear the gospel of Christ.
They only knew about Jesus and to believe in Him,

They believed the gospel and were saved first, then were baptized "afterwards."

Acts 18:24-25,
- Now a certain jew named Apollos born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures came to Ephesus
- This man had been instructed IN THE WAY OF THE LORD; and being fervent in spirit he spoke and taught ACCURATELY THE THINGS OF THE LORD, THOUGH HE ONLY KNEW THE BAPTISM OF JOHN

Aquila and Priscilla took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

The Ephesians were already believers in Christ but Paul taught them the gospel because they needed to be saved and recieve the Holy Spirit that they being believers HAD NOT EVEN HEARD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Believers don't need to be re-baptized. John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. They had not yet received the Holy Spirit or even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. They were not saved believers prior to Paul speaking with them.

Matthew 22:29,
- Jesus answered and said to them,
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God

In context, Jesus was talking to the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection.

 

[Titus]

Did Paul say saved by grace through faith "plus doing something"? NO. Paul said "not of works" lest anyone should boast.

Paul taught believers that they needed to be baptized into Jesus Christ.
If there was nothing for them to do, then Paul just wasted his time and theirs.

More ignorance of Scriptures by Danthemailman to teach we are saved by doing nothing!

Quote form Dan below,

Did Paul say saved by grace through faith "plus doing something"? NO

This is ignorance and why Dan has been taught from ignorant blind men.

Acts 2:37,
- ....men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, save yourselves from this perverse generation.

Acts 3:19,
- Repent(something we must do) therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out...

Acts 9:6,
- So Paul trembling and astonished said, Lord, what do you want me to  do, then the Lord said to him,
Arise and go into the city and you will be told what you must do.
If Paul did not obey Jesus he would NOT have been saved. Faith and obedience Dan!

Acts 16:30,
- And he brought them out and said, Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved.
God has conditions in His gospel to be saved.
Dan has been influenced by calvinism that teaches man does nothing in his salvation because salvation is ALL God and none of man, thus Unconditional Election.
The true gospel Has two Parties that must work together in order for God to freely give His grace.
Proof: Does God give grace to those who refuse to believe the gospel?
Who has to believe the gospel? Mankind! That's our part.
Ephesians 2:8-9,
- For by grace(Gods part) you have been saved, through faith(mans part) and that not of yourselves(not of our meritorious works) it is the gift of God

The text says "some disciples." Now in verse 2, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed

This is exactly how doctrines of men begin!
Dan denies they were believers in Jesus when the Scriptures teach they were already taught accurately about Jesus being the Savior, His death, burial and ressurection.
This is why Dan holds to his churches theology over the Bible.

Dan says they did not believe in Jesus in verse 3.
Acts 19:2-3,
- Paul said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Believed what Paul?

John the baptist preached to believe in Jesus,
Mark 1: 1-3 ; Matthew 3:1-3

Apollos a follower and believer in Jesus was the Ephesians teacher/preacher of the gospel.

Acts 18:24-25,
- Now ascertain jew named Apollos born at Alexandria an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures came to Ephesus,
-This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught ACCURATELY the things of the Lord, though he only knew the baptism of John.

They were already taught of Jesus and were believers in Jesus just as the Bible says.
But Dan disagrees with the Scriptures and says they were not believers in Jesus because they were not taught about Jesus.

Dan makes the statement quote:

The text says "some disciples.

This is an attempt to make these Ephesians not the ones who Apollos taught.
That is ridiculous!

Who are the ones who only know of John's baptism?
Why would they only know of John's baptism?
OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE APOLLOS TAUGHT THEM!

Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism, SO WERE THEY!
Put it together Dan!
Acts 19:1,
- And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to EPHESUS and finding some disciples he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? So they said to Paul, we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.
- and Paul said to them, Into what then were you baptized? So they said into John's baptism.

Pay attention Dan!
Acts 18:25,
Apollos:
- ....he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Verse 26,
- so Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

What was it that Aquila and Priscilla had to teach Apollos about?
Jesus? Or Jesus' baptism?

Anyone with a little intelligence and honesty knows it was not about who Jesus was but the baptism in the name of the Lord for he only knew the baptism of John!

They were already believers taught by Apollos before Paul teaches them NOT about believing in Jesus as Dan wrongly teaches but in why they must be baptized in Jesus' name.

Acts 19:3-5,
-And Paul said to them, into what were you baptized? So they said, Into John's baptism"
-Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus.
-When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Dan did you notice Paul did not teach them to believe in Jesus?
Paul taught them to be baptized into Jesus!

Then they received the laying on of an apostles hand to receive the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Just Believe what the Bible says Dan.

 

[Titus]

Again, they had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed

Baloney!
Apollos had already taught and made them believers in Christ.
Acts 19:2,
- Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: Paul taught believers that they needed to be baptized into Jesus Christ.
If there was nothing for them to do, then Paul just wasted his time and theirs.

Did Paul say it was by grace that we have been saved through faith or through water baptism in Ephesians 2:8? FAITH. Paul never said that we needed to be water baptized into the body of Christ in order to be saved. That's your eisegesis. We are baptized by one Spirit into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13) and this happens when we believe the gospel. (Epheaisns 1:13)

More ignorance of Scriptures by Danthemailman to teach we are saved by doing nothing!

Choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is not exactly doing nothing, yet there is still no amount of works that we could accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) God imputes righteousness apart from works. Yet you teach that God imputes righteousness based on works. You want to do something to help Christ save you and boast in your works, particularly in water baptism.

Quote form Dan below,

This is ignorance and why Dan has been taught from ignorant blind men.

Oh the irony.

Acts 2:37,
- ....men and brethren, what shall we do?

Like I said, choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation as a result of repentance is not exactly doing nothing. Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Get water baptized and you will be saved? NO. Accomplish a check list of works and you will be saved? NO. ANSWER: 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, save yourselves from this perverse generation.

Save yourselves from this perverse generation. Not save yourselves by works.

Acts 3:19,
- Repent (something we must do) therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out...

Of course. I have never denied that repentance is necessary for salvation and unless we repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel we will not be saved. You try to "add works" to repentance/faith as something we must do in order to be saved.

Acts 9:6,
- So Paul trembling and astonished said, Lord, what do you want me to  do, then the Lord said to him,
Arise and go into the city and you will be told what you must do.
If Paul did not obey Jesus he would NOT have been saved. Faith and obedience Dan!

Suffering for the Lord's sake was what Paul must do and not as a prerequisite for salvation, but as a saved servant of the Lord. Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake. Saved by faith, not faith + obedience/works which "follow" Titus! When are you going to finally get that through your head?

Acts 16:30,
- And he brought them out and said, Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved.
God has conditions in His gospel to be saved.
Dan has been influenced by calvinism that teaches man does nothing in his salvation because salvation is ALL God and none of man, thus Unconditional Election.
The true gospel Has two Parties that must work together in order for God to freely give His grace.
Proof: Does God give grace to those who refuse to believe the gospel?
Who has to believe the gospel? Mankind! That's our part.
Ephesians 2:8-9,
- For by grace (Gods part) you have been saved, through faith (mans part) and that not of yourselves (not of our meritorious works) it is the gift of God.

Once again, what must I do to be saved?” Get water baptized and you will be saved? NO. Accomplish a check list of works and you will be saved? NO. ANSWER: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31) Grace is God's part and faith is man's part. Meritorious works would be any works that we "add" to salvation through faith, not works.

This is exactly how doctrines of men begin!
Dan denies they were believers in Jesus when the Scriptures teach they were already taught accurately about Jesus being the Savior, His death, burial and ressurection.
This is why Dan holds to his churches theology over the Bible.

You are the master of irony. Saved believers in Christ have already received the Holy Spirit, instead of not even hearing whether there is a Holy Spirit and needing to be taught accurately about Jesus being the Savior, His death, burial and resurrection. Saved believers would already know this and would have already been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Dan says they did not believe in Jesus in verse 3.
Acts 19:2-3,
- Paul said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Believed what Paul?

Assuming they may have believed, Paul asked this question, yet their answer demonstrated that they were not yet saved believers. When a person is born again, they receive the Holy Spirit. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9). So why is it that they did not have the Holy Spirit? The key is that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They did not know about Jesus’ saving work or the Holy Spirit's indwelling until they met Paul. These men were self-identified disciples of John the Baptist but they were not yet believers in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. Paul’s question about their conversion experience reveals that they knew nothing of the Spirit or His power.

John the baptist preached to believe in Jesus,
Mark 1: 1-3 ; Matthew 3:1-3

John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” That is the "good news" that John the Baptist was preaching. He was pointing to Jesus and preparing the way of the Lord. Now show me where John the Baptist preached about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ that Paul preached. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9) I'll be waiting.

Apollos a follower and believer in Jesus was the Ephesians teacher/preacher of the gospel.

Acts 18:24-25,
- Now ascertain jew named Apollos born at Alexandria an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures came to Ephesus,
-This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught ACCURATELY the things of the Lord, though he only knew the baptism of John.

Apollos had been preaching in Ephesus (Acts 18:24). However, he knew only the baptism of John (verse 25). The only information Apollos had about Jesus was what he had heard from John; thus, he knew Jesus was the Messiah, but he knew nothing of Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection. Two believers in Ephesus, Priscilla and Aquila, took Apollos aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. (verse 26) After he understood and received the further content of the gospel, Apollos went on to vigorously refute the Jews publicly (verse 28).

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: They were already taught of Jesus and were believers in Jesus just as the Bible says.

Being taught certain things about Jesus and believing in the existence of Jesus and believing that He was the coming Messiah "in of itself" does not save apart from believing the further content of the gospel under this present dispensation.

But Dan disagrees with the Scriptures and says they were not believers in Jesus because they were not taught about Jesus.

Dan simply disagrees with Titus but agrees with the Scriptures. Titus is confused and has been thoroughly indoctrinated by his church.

Dan makes the statement quote:

This is an attempt to make these Ephesians not the ones who Apollos taught.
That is ridiculous!

Who are the ones who only know of John's baptism?
Why would they only know of John's baptism?
OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE APOLLOS TAUGHT THEM!

Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism, SO WERE THEY!
Put it together Dan!
Acts 19:1,
- And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to EPHESUS and finding some disciples he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? So they said to Paul, we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.
- and Paul said to them, Into what then were you baptized? So they said into John's baptism.

It would seem that the twelve men whom Paul encountered were some of Apollos’ followers. They had been baptized for repentance under John the Baptist, but they had not heard the further content of the gospel message. Paul filled them in on the details of Jesus’ death and resurrection, the essential elements of the gospel and told them to believe. (Acts 19:4) Once the men received Christ by faith, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They received the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands of them--which is the exception, not the rule. John the Baptist’s ministry was one of preparation for people to receive Christ

Pay attention Dan!

I have been paying attention all along and your confusion and bias is painfully obvious.

Acts 18:25,
Apollos:
- ....he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Verse 26,
- so Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

You need to pay close attention to those bolded words above.

What was it that Aquila and Priscilla had to teach Apollos about?
Jesus? Or Jesus' baptism?

Further content of the gospel. The baptism of John was associated with repentance and the coming Messiah. Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus was associated with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, which John did not teach, but we must believe now under this present dispensation. I really don't expect you to understand. You are so obsessed with water baptism that your brain is water logged.

Anyone with a little intelligence and honesty knows it was not about who Jesus was but the baptism in the name of the Lord for he only knew the baptism of John!

Intelligence and honesty? You still read the Bible like it's simply a text book. The word of God is alive and active.. (Hebrews 4:12) You focus on the baptism itself, yet you miss the big picture about the further content of the gospel, which you still don't believe. Now you may believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" yet you are still not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. Your faith is wrapped up in water baptism.

They were already believers taught by Apollos before Paul teaches them NOT about believing in Jesus as Dan wrongly teaches but in why they must be baptized in Jesus' name.

What was the content about what they already believed, prior to their encounter with Paul and what he told them?

Acts 19:3-5,
-And Paul said to them, into what were you baptized? So they said, Into John's baptism"
-Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus.
-When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You make this out to be ALL about baptism and continue to miss the big picture. John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus. That is the big picture.

Dan did you notice Paul did not teach them to believe in Jesus?
Paul taught them to be baptized into Jesus!

You still don't get it. Paul taught them they needed to believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus. That's what they were missing. Afterwards they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus because they had not previously believed on Christ Jesus unto salvation. Simple!

Then they received the laying on of an apostles hand to receive the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Which is the exception and not the rule. Not all believers receive the laying on of an apostles hands in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Just Believe what the Bible says Dan.

I do believe what the Bible says. You believe only what your church tells you the Bible says.

 

[mailmandan]

Baloney!
Apollos had already taught and made them believers in Christ.
Acts 19:2,
- Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Baloney! Read the rest of verse 2. Not only had they not yet received the Holy Spirit (which only believers do - Ephesians 1:13) they had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.

In verse 4, we read - Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” That's what they were missing.

Your absolute obsession with water baptism keeps you from seeing the big picture.

 

[Titus]

Did Paul say it was by grace that we have been saved through faith or through water baptism in Ephesians 2:8? FAITH.

It is impossible for you to understand the gospel as long as you continue to cherry pick verses and ignore the rest.
Where in Ephesians 2:8-9 does Paul teach repentance?
You already have admitted that one must repent and have faith to be saved.
You do not harmonize the Scriptures.
Paul taught baptism and baptized, you should have told Paul not to baptize the Ephesians.
You should have taught Paul baptism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You make a mess of Jesus' gospel, forgot Mark 16:15-16 again Dan!

Faith is not how you define it as belief alone without works, meaning no obeying Gods commandments.
You do not want to accept that baptism is an ACT OF FAITH
Repentance is an act of Faith,
Confession is an act of Faith
Baptism is an act of Faith.

True saving Faith will obey God by doing His commandments.
Faith without obedience is dead, James 2:26.

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches no works of man save us. It does not teach that no works save us.
Gods work is in His grace. He did the work on the cross to save us.

By your logic, where did Paul say in Epheasians 2:8-9 that repentance saves us? IT DOES NOT, IT ONLY SAYS FAITH SAVES US.
According to Dan's reasoning then faith alone must be all that saves us.
That is not what Paul taught Dan,
Acts 3:19,
- Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out

Paul did not say anything about repentance in Ephesians 2:8-9 only faith,
So according to Dan repentance plays no part in our salvation.

Paul taught more than faith alone, he taught one must repent to have remission of sins.

I dont cherry pick verses and make a religion out of those verses.
I take the whole gospel and allow all the verses to harmonize.

Dan has Ephesians 2:8-9 contradicting Acts 3:19.

Paul never said that we needed to be water baptized into the body of Christ in order to be saved. That's your

He said his sins were washed away when he obeyed the gospel of Christ by submitting to immersion in the name of Jesus,
Acts 22:16,
-And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.

You ignore Scripture that does not fit your false gospel of faith only.
Paul taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:15-16.

I could not understand the gospel either if I thought Ephesians 2:8-9 eliminated repentance and confession and baptism and obedience till death.

Choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is not exactly doing nothing, yet there is still no amount of works that we could accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)

You have the wrong idea that obeying Gods commandments is somehow helping God to save us.
Nowhere does it teach God needs our help.
God DEMANDS, COMMANDS that we obey His gospel.
That is His way of condemning the proud who will not obey.
That is His way of saving the obedient that will obey.
It has nothing to do with His inability to save by his own power.

Hebrews 5:8-9,
- And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Does God need your faith to help Him save you?
No, but He REQUIRES, DEMANDS, COMMANDS IT!
Likewise God does not need our help by repentance, confession or baptism.

You need to get this thinking out of your head Dan or you will never understand that all works in salvation do not earn or merit anything.
God does not need our faith to save us just as He does not need any works that we do to save us.
But God commands we do these things because of how we will be judged.

We are baptized by one Spirit into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13) and this happens when we believe the gospel. (Epheaisns 1:13)

No, we are not baptized into the body which is the church the moment we believe.
You wrongly teach 1Corinthians 12:13 is Holy Spirit baptism and not water.

It is water baptism that God adds us to His church/body,
1Corinthians 12:13
Ephesians 5:26,
-that He might sanctify and cleanse her(church) with the washing of water by the word.

These passages parallel one another.

Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
All that were added by God had all been water baptized.

1Corinthians 12:13,
- For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...

This is not the Holy Spirit baptism.
This is Paul doing the baptizing through the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Paul baptized the Corinthians,
Acts 18:8,
- Then Crispus the ruler of the synagogue believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized.

Paul preached only one baptism, Ephesians 4:5,
- One Lord one faith one baptism.

Now which baptism was Paul baptizing the Corinthians with Dan?
It cannot be water and Holy Spirit for that is two baptisms.

1Corinthians 1:14-16
- I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
- Yes I also baptized the household of Stephanas, besides I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Paul was teaching water baptism through the Holy Spirit's agency in 1Corinthians 12:13.

Jesus baptized through His agency,
John 4:1-2,
- Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
- though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples.

Jesus's baptized more than John!
The bible says so, to deny this is to deny the word of God!

But He did not do the physical act of baptizing.
He did the baptizing through His agency.

Just as the Holy Spirit baptized the Corinthians,
Through His agency.
But Paul did the baptizing in water.

All that we do comes from the Teaching of Jesus and the Holy Spirit,
By the teaching of the gospel to be baptized is how the Spirit baptized them.
There was no miraculous Spirit baptism taking place in 1Corinthians 12:13.

1Corinthians 2:13,
- These things we also speak not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit  teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Galatians 3:26-27 is water immersion.
No one in the gospel of Christ was not water baptized. All were.
Paul said there is only one baptism in Jesus' gospel, Ephesians 4:5.
That baptism must be water for that is what every saved person in the new testament recieved.
Not every saved person in the new testament recieved Holy Spirit baptism or miraculous gifts.

The apostles were forgiving of their sins in the baptism of John not in their HS baptism in Acts 2.
HS baptism was never for the purpose of saving someone.

 

[Titus]

Baloney! Read the rest of verse 2. Not only had they not yet received the Holy Spirit (which only believers do - Ephesians 1:13) they had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.

In verse 4, we read - Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” That's what they were missing.

Your absolute obsession with water baptism keeps you from seeing the big picture.

Just keep ignoring the word so you can hold to your theology,
Acts 18:24-25,
- Now a certain Jew named Apollos born in Alexandria an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures came to EPHESUS.
- This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in spirit he spoke and taught ACCURATELY the things of the Lord, though he only knew the baptism of John.

Acts 19:2,
Paul said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

 

[Titus]

Not only had they not yet received the Holy Spirit (which only believers do - Ephesians 1:13) they had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit

Nowhere does the Bible teach you recieve the Holy Spirit the moment you believe.
That is false church doctrine.
Believe the Bible over your church Dan.

Paul was a believer on the road to Damascus yet had not received the Holy Spirit until three days later when Ananias laid hands on him,

Acts 9:9,
And he was thre days without sight and nethier ate not drank.

Three days after Paul had already believed and still no Holy Spirit until Ananias comes to him.

Acts 9:17,
- And Ananias went His way and entered the house and laying his hands on Paul he said, Brother Saul the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

You are teaching the doctrines of men.

Also those in Acts 8 were saved and did not receive the Holy Spirit until the apostles came later.
Acts 8:12,
- but when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 8:14-16,
- Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Who when they had come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
for He had fallen on NONE of them yet, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Saved believers baptized in water but not until the apostles came did they receive the Holy Spirit.

You teach the doctrines of men.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Baloney! Read the rest of verse 2. Not only had they not yet received the Holy Spirit (which only believers do - Ephesians 1:13) they had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.

In verse 4, we read - Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” That's what they were missing.

Your absolute obsession with water baptism keeps you from seeing the big picture.

I think your beating a dead horse meme would fit here

 

[mailmandan]

It is impossible for you to understand the gospel as long as you continue to cherry pick verses and ignore the rest.

Instead of properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, you cherry pick, distort and pervert passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

Where in Ephesians 2:8-9 does Paul teach repentance?

Paul does not need to mention repentance in Ephesians 2:8,9 because those who have been saved through faith have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Since you place repentance "after" faith I don't expect you to understand.

You already have admitted that one must repent and have faith to be saved.

Yes and repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. Where you have one you have the other.

You do not harmonize the Scriptures.

I certainly do harmonize the Scriptures and have been throughout our discussion.

Paul taught baptism and baptized, you should have told Paul not to baptize the Ephesians.

Paul never said that we are saved by baptism or justified by baptism, but Paul did say that we are saved and justified by faith. (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1) Faith plus what? Faith plus nothing. Faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

You should have taught Paul baptism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul already knows that baptism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4)

You make a mess of Jesus' gospel, forgot Mark 16:15-16 again Dan!

You pervert the gospel by adding works to it. As I already explained. Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. *NOWHERE did Jesus say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith is not how you define it as belief alone without works, meaning no obeying Gods commandments.

You basically define faith "as" works. To you, faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically believed that as well. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

You do not want to accept that baptism is an ACT OF FAITH

I can accept that it's an act of faith or that it's produced out of faith, but baptism is not faith itself. Faith is faith and baptism is baptism.

Repentance is an act of Faith,

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes saving faith in Christ and good works are the fruit of repentance, but not the essence of repentance.

Confession is an act of Faith

Confession is an expression of faith. In 1 Corinthians 12:3, we read - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord but is a personal conviction, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

Baptism is an act of Faith.

Again, baptism is an act of faith or produced out of faith, but baptism is not faith itself.

True saving Faith will obey God by doing His commandments.

That's the result of true saving faith and becoming a new creation in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21) Those who are born of God "keep" (Greek word "tereo") guard, observe, watch over His commandments. (1 John 2:3) This does not mean flawless obedience 100% of the time.

Faith without obedience is dead, James 2:26.

Faith that does not result in producing obedience/evidential works demonstrates that it's dead and once again, in James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches no works of man save us. It does not teach that no works save us.
Gods work is in His grace. He did the work on the cross to save us.

Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly states that it's by grace (God's part) that we have been saved through faith (man's part) and it's not of ourselves, but is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast. Where did Paul mention that we are saved by faith plus "these" works and just not "those" works in Ephesians 2:8,9? That's your eisegesis.

By your logic, where did Paul say in Epheasians 2:8-9 that repentance saves us? IT DOES NOT, IT ONLY SAYS FAITH SAVES US.

Repentance precedes salvation through faith, so it's already implied or assumed and does not need to be spelled out in Ephesians 2:8,9.

According to Dan's reasoning then faith alone must be all that saves us.

Faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Someone who does trust in Christ alone for salvation has already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to trust in Christ alone for salvation. Faith in Christ alone for salvation does not mean that we never repented or God's grace and Christ's finished work of redemption is excluded on God's part. Unbelievers just don't get that.

That is not what Paul taught Dan,
Acts 3:19,
- Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out

Yes, and faith is implied or assumed and does not need to be spelled out in Acts 3:19 in order to understand that we are saved through faith after we repent. If your semantics were not so far off base, you would understand this. Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. Where salvation is in view, where you have one, you must have the other.

Paul did not say anything about repentance in Ephesians 2:8-9 only faith,

Once again, Paul did not need to say anything about repentance in Ephesians 2:8,9 because where you have faith, repentance is implied or assumed. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ and repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin in receiving Christ.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: So according to Dan repentance plays no part in our salvation.

That is a false accusation on your part. When all else fails play the straw man card. I already explained this to you multiple times.

Paul taught more than faith alone, he taught one must repent to have remission of sins.

Faith alone does not mean we never repented. When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved by faith alone, they mean we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Let me know when that finally sinks in.

I dont cherry pick verses and make a religion out of those verses.

Basically you do and you also "patch together" a works based false gospel.

I take the whole gospel and allow all the verses to harmonize.

No, you "add" works to the gospel then try to force the rest of Scripture to "conform" to your biased interpretation of your pet verses. That is not proper hermeneutics. That is flawed hermeneutics.

Dan has Ephesians 2:8-9 contradicting Acts 3:19.

Not at all. Man is saved by grace through faith, not works, and repentance precedes faith and is implied or assumed. Where you have one, you must have the other. Two sides to the same coin. It's the same with Acts 3:19. Where you have repentance unto life, faith is implied or assumed and does not need to be spelled out in Acts 3:19 in order to figure that out. *Hermeneutics.*

He said his sins were washed away when he obeyed the gospel of Christ by submitting to immersion in the name of Jesus,
Acts 22:16,
-And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.

Show me the words, "obey the gospel" in Acts 22:16. Roman Catholics and Mormons are also very fond of Acts 22:16 and falsely teach that we are saved by water baptism plus other works. In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (verse 15), although the apostle had not yet been water baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15) and such a commission is not for one who is still lost in their sins. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO.

So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

*It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

You ignore Scripture that does not fit your false gospel of faith only.

You ignore Scripture that does not fit your works based false gospel of works salvation (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism). I teach salvation through faith in Christ alone for salvation per Paul - (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8.9) and not salvation by faith only per James - (James 2:14, 24) which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works.

Paul taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:15-16.

Jesus said that whoever does not believe will be condemned, but Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved, which is in harmony with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. In Romans 1:16, Paul said - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, (what happened to baptism?) for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

I could not understand the gospel either if I thought Ephesians 2:8-9 eliminated repentance and confession and baptism and obedience till death.

You don't understand the gospel because you place repentance after faith and basically turn faith, repentance, confession, baptism and obedience till death into salvation by works. It's obvious you are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your false gospel renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. The gospel I preach renders Christ an ALL-sufficient Savior.

You have the wrong idea that obeying Gods commandments is somehow helping God to save us.

If obeying God's commandments after we have been saved through faith is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, then there would be merit on our part and we would be trying to help God save us based on our works.

Nowhere does it teach God needs our help.

Of course it doesn't, but works-salvationists do and they don't even seem to realize it.

God DEMANDS, COMMANDS that we obey His gospel.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16; 1:16)

That is His way of condemning the proud who will not obey.

The proud are seeking salvation by works and are under the delusion that they are obedient.

That is His way of saving the obedient that will obey.

Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God.

It has nothing to do with His inability to save by his own power.

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

Hebrews 5:8-9,
- And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Over the years I have often heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and you guessed it! *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness. (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Does God need your faith to help Him save you?
No, but He REQUIRES, DEMANDS, COMMANDS IT!
Likewise God does not need our help by repentance, confession or baptism.

Faith is the channel through which God's grace flows. Salvation is a free gift, but a gift must be received. Repentance precedes faith and confession is an expression of faith and water baptism follows salvation through faith. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you turned repentance, faith, confession and baptism into a system of works salvation.

You need to get this thinking out of your head Dan or you will never understand that all works in salvation do not earn or merit anything.

Everything to you is a work and you are always trying to divide works into separate categories of meritorious and non-meritorious. Roman Catholics do the exact same thing. Hmm..

God does not need our faith to save us just as He does not need any works that we do to save us.
But God commands we do these things because of how we will be judged.

Your gospel of faith and works salvation is a false gospel. Works will determine rewards and loss of rewards for believers at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

No, we are not baptized into the body which is the church the moment we believe.

Yes we are and the exceptions to that rule were those who were baptized prior to Jesus being glorified and the Holy Spirit being given (John 7:39) along with those who experienced a temporary delay until the apostles laid hands on them first. Exception, not the rule. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Upon my conversion several years ago, I received the Holy Spirit the moment that I believed the gospel and it was on a Saturday night. I knew without a doubt that I had become born again, was saved and I received water baptism on Sunday morning.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: You wrongly teach 1Corinthians 12:13 is Holy Spirit baptism and not water.

1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Nothing there about water baptism. You would have to be blind to miss that.

It is water baptism that God adds us to His church/body,
1Corinthians 12:13
Ephesians 5:26,
-that He might sanctify and cleanse her(church) with the washing of water by the word.

False. That interpretation comes from the natural man. Ephesians 5:26 says washing of water by the word, but you simply isolate the word "water" then apply your eisegesis. The word "water" is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26)

These passages parallel one another.

Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

How are we saved? By grace through faith, not works--including water baptism.

All that were added by God had all been water baptized.

They were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43;47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

1Corinthians 12:13,
- For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...

This is not the Holy Spirit baptism.
This is Paul doing the baptizing through the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Paul baptized the Corinthians,
Acts 18:8,
- Then Crispus the ruler of the synagogue believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized.

False. 1 Corinthians 12:13 is crystal clear on Spirit baptism, but that doesn't fit your biased church doctrine, so you reject the truth.

Paul preached only one baptism, Ephesians 4:5,
- One Lord one faith one baptism.

Even though there are baptism(s) plural, in Matthew 3:11 we read - I baptize you with 1. water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the 2. Holy Spirit and 3. fire. There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. You need to quit fighting the truth!

Now which baptism was Paul baptizing the Corinthians with Dan?
It cannot be water and Holy Spirit for that is two baptisms.

Man baptizes with water and God baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Apparently you reject Holy Spirit baptism. That explains a lot!

1Corinthians 1:14-16
- I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
- Yes I also baptized the household of Stephanas, besides I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Paul was teaching water baptism through the Holy Spirit's agency in 1Corinthians 12:13.

False. You are manipulative and deceptive.

Jesus baptized through His agency,
John 4:1-2,
- Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
- though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples.

Jesus's baptized more than John!
The bible says so, to deny this is to deny the word of God!

But He did not do the physical act of baptizing.
He did the baptizing through His agency.

Just as the Holy Spirit baptized the Corinthians,
Through His agency.
But Paul did the baptizing in water.

All that we do comes from the Teaching of Jesus and the Holy Spirit,
By the teaching of the gospel to be baptized is how the Spirit baptized them.
There was no miraculous Spirit baptism taking place in 1Corinthians 12:13.

1Corinthians 2:13,
- These things we also speak not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit  teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You are throughly mixed up! 1 Corinthians 2:14 -But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Galatians 3:26-27 is water immersion.

I already thoroughly explained Galatians 3:26-27 in post #402. Apparently what I explained to you went right over your head, as usual.

No one in the gospel of Christ was not water baptized. All were.

Those who believe the gospel and are saved would gladly want to be water baptized. I could not wait to receive water baptism, but not in order to become saved because I already had been saved through faith the night before. Your obsession with water baptism reminds me of the Jews obsession with circumcision. You need to stop confusing the picture with the reality.

Paul said there is only one baptism in Jesus' gospel, Ephesians 4:5.
That baptism must be water for that is what every saved person in the new testament recieved.
Not every saved person in the new testament recieved Holy Spirit baptism or miraculous gifts.

I already thoroughly explained Ephesians 4:5 to you. Your logic is biased and flawed. I seriously doubt that I will ever get through to you and just as Eternally Grateful pointed out, I am just wasting my time beating a dead horse.

The apostles were forgiving of their sins in the baptism of John not in their HS baptism in Acts 2.

The only logical conclusion when properly HARMONIZING SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *PERFECT HARMONY*

HS baptism was never for the purpose of saving someone.

Those who are saved receive the Holy Spirit. Water baptism was never for the purpose os saving someone. What does save us is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. You continue to walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

 

[mailmandan]

Just keep ignoring the word so you can hold to your theology,
Acts 18:24-25,
- Now a certain Jew named Apollos born in Alexandria an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures came to EPHESUS.
- This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in spirit he spoke and taught ACCURATELY the things of the Lord, though he only knew the baptism of John.

Acts 19:2,
Paul said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Nowhere does the Bible teach you recieve the Holy Spirit the moment you believe.
That is false church doctrine.
Believe the Bible over your church Dan.

Paul was a believer on the road to Damascus yet had not received the Holy Spirit until three days later when Ananias laid hands on him,

Acts 9:9,
And he was thre days without sight and nethier ate not drank.

Three days after Paul had already believed and still no Holy Spirit until Ananias comes to him.

Acts 9:17,
- And Ananias went His way and entered the house and laying his hands on Paul he said, Brother Saul the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

You are teaching the doctrines of men.

Also those in Acts 8 were saved and did not receive the Holy Spirit until the apostles came later.
Acts 8:12,
- but when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 8:14-16,
- Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Who when they had come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
for He had fallen on NONE of them yet, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Saved believers baptized in water but not until the apostles came did they receive the Holy Spirit.

You teach the doctrines of men.

I already previously explained all of this to you and I'm tired of repeating myself. Unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear and I am also getting very tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse.

You desperately need to repent and believe the gospel. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[mailmandan]

I think your beating a dead horse meme would fit here

You got that right.

 

[Titus]

I already previously explained all of this to you and I'm tired of repeating myself. Unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear and I am also getting very tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse.

View attachment 31183
You desperately need to repent and believe the gospel. I will continue to pray for you.

I love you Dan

 

[mailmandan]

I love you Dan

Proverbs 15:1 - A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. At the end of the day after heated debates, we can still have love in our hearts for others.

 

[amigo de christo]

You claim your not misrepresenting my beliefs on here, then say I put my faith in water and not Jesus.
I have no faith in water as you already have been told, yet you continue to spread false rumors about me,

Did the early church preach BELIEVE IN JESUS . YES .
Did the early church water baptize the new converts . YES .
Then let us go and do likewise .
Peter preached the gospel to the house of cornelious
seen them recieve the baptism of the SPIRIT , for they spoke with tongues
and for some reason STILL said lets water baptize these folks .
IF THEY DID WE DO . its just as simple as that .