A useful chart for classifying Belief

[InquisitiveAgnostic]

View attachment 104

Here is a little chart I whipped up to help with explanations of Agnosticism

It uses the terms of A/gnosticsm and A/theism

Hope it helps

 

[dragonfly]

Hi InquisitiveAgnostic,

'A disbelief in God and a knowledge of its non-existence' is an impossiblity, as no-one can verify the existence of nothing.

The other problem with this statement is the apostle Paul's statement of the obvious in the wake of his warning about rejecting truth.

Here is the warning:

'[For] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness'.

What that sentence means is, God is angry with those who exercise ungodliness and unrighteousness, while knowing better. By 'knowing better' I mean, they have a concept of the absolute standard by which they are being judged, even without being formally told. You might like to argue about what people can 'know', but I don't think Paul's words need any defence, because, as I said, he's stating the obvious. Here it is:

'... That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.'

Paul goes on to explain God's reasoning for His wrath:

'... When they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened'.

Words in blue taken from Romans 1, King James Bible.


The thing you have to notice is, that people begin with knowledge of God, but if they don't respect that knowledge properly, the result of laying it aside is the operation of certain spiritual laws.

What people don't seem to realise is, that acknowledging God as He deserves to be acknowledged - acknowledging truth as truth with appropriate responses to the truth revealed - being thankful for God's revelation of Himself in creation and His provision for mankind, and for knowing Him more - also triggers certain spiritual laws; laws which lead to life itself and the increase in understanding of God and His interests. One of His main intentions is to bless His obedient children. This may explain why He will not bless His disobedient children.


The apostle Paul has more to say about this contrast in Ephesians 2:1 - 3. John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4, 5, 6. What is needed for men who have been blinded by darkness and evil practices, is that they turn from darkness and come to the light of God - His life in Christ Jesus - to receive spiritual sight to be able to 'see' the reality of God's realm, and also be transformed by obedience and a regenerated mind.

Hebrews 11:6 is not circular reasoning. God has revealed Himself through His huge creation, and unbelief is as much of a choice as belief.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

'A disbelief in God and a knowledge of its non-existence' is an impossiblity, as no-one can verify the existence of nothing.

People can convince theirselves of it, though.

Take Stephen Hawking for example. He came up with an (unverified) theory of positive and negative energy, which is a theoretical notion that the energy in the universe totals zero because negative and positive balance out (space>negative and mass/energy>positive). He believes that since the universe came from nothing, it is nothing, and positive and negative energies just tug equally and opposite to produce this hologram we call reality.

Because he is convinced of this, he goes around saying that there is no God. The Church simply called it a legal fiction and moved on

 

[InquisitiveAgnostic]

also, knowledge doesn't necessarily mean the basis of that knowledge is correct.

Someone could know all there is about homeopathy or alchemy. It doesn't mean the knowledge is correct.

 

[dragonfly]

also, knowledge doesn't necessarily mean the basis of that knowledge is correct.

Someone could know all there is about homeopathy or alchemy. It doesn't mean the knowledge is correct.

That kind of knowledge is more along the lines of information.

In the Bible, the word 'know' is used of the intimacy of marriage. It's far less about information and more about ... well... knowing. This is the kind of 'knowledge' which Adam and Eve received from eating of the 'tree of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'.

In the same way, when the axe is laid to the root of that tree in a person's life, (through faith in the effect of the death of Jesus Christ), the 'knowledge of God' which they receive, is as absolute and irrefutable. The apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesian believers:

'Till we all come in the unity of the faith to the knowledge of the Son of God ... ' That is not about information.

 

[InquisitiveAgnostic]

I was using knowledge in a purely academic way.

"Information and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."

 

[Lux Veritatis]

You can verify that something doesn't exist. Half the results that happen in science are verifications that something didn't happen or that something doesn't exist.

 

[dragonfly]

You can verify that something doesn't exist. Half the results that happen in science are verifications that something didn't happen or that something doesn't exist.

By this measure, it should never be possible to prove that God does not exist. For this, I am grateful.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

By this measure, it should never be possible to prove that God does not exist. For this, I am grateful.

Nor is it possible to prove that he does. I choose to believe he doesn't, you chose to believe he does.

 

[aspen]

Lux Veritatis,

Why do you choose not to believe?

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Lux Veritatis,

Why do you choose not to believe?

Because I am not convinced of the "evidence" for Christianity and I do not believe that faith is a reasonable thing. If there is no way to prove something, it does not merit belief. I could just as easily believe in the flying spaghetti monster since there is as much evidence there as for the Christian God — none.

 

[aspen]

nah, the flying spaghetti monster is much less compelling.

Do you agree that you are limiting reality to what you can sense or reason?

Christians use a wider lens

 

[Lux Veritatis]

nah, the flying spaghetti monster is much less compelling.

Do you agree that you are limiting reality to what you can sense or reason?

Christians use a wider lens

Christians use a wider lens only in that they make non-falsifiable claims and think they can get away with it.

I can make any number of those kinds of claims—that there is an invisible god made of spaghetti in the sky. Disprove me! You can't. You see the problem? You are claiming to know things that are by definition unknowable and unprovable because you shun reason as something that is apparently a bad thing. However, sense and reason are the only things human beings have to understand the world, short of making stuff up.

 

[Selene]

Christians use a wider lens only in that they make non-falsifiable claims and think they can get away with it.

I can make any number of those kinds of claims—that there is an invisible god made of spaghetti in the sky. Disprove me! You can't. You see the problem? You are claiming to know things that are by definition unknowable and unprovable because you shun reason as something that is apparently a bad thing. However, sense and reason are the only things human beings have to understand the world, short of making stuff up.

Are you sure you are here to learn about Christianity or are you here to discredit our faith?

What makes you think that your perception of things should be the same for every human?

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Are you sure you are here to learn about Christianity or are you here to discredit our faith?

What makes you think that your perception of things should be the same for every human?

I can learn while simultaneously using my logic to reject unreasonable claims.

And what makes you think that your perception of things should be the same for every human, especially when you claim to have knowledge above and beyond what humans can reasonably know.

 

[Selene]

I can learn while simultaneously using my logic to reject unreasonable claims.

And what makes you think that your perception of things should be the same for every human, especially when you claim to have knowledge above and beyond what humans can reasonably know.

All humans perceive things differently. They are not the same. It is not us who can reasonably know God. We know God only through faith, and faith is a gift from God.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

All humans perceive things differently. They are not the same. It is not us who can reasonably know God. We know God only through faith, and faith is a gift from God.

What you just said is you know God — invisible deity — through accepting an idea without any reason or proof, and that this gift is from the unprovable invisible deity. How do you not see this is nonsense? And that I can say I believe in the flying spaghetti monster because he gave me the gift of belief. Its the same exact thing.

 

[Selene]

What you just said is you know God — invisible deity — through accepting an idea without any reason or proof, and that this gift is from the unprovable invisible deity. How do you not see this is nonsense? And that I can say I believe in the flying spaghetti monster because he gave me the gift of belief. Its the same exact thing.

Because my perception of things is not the same as yours. When you and I look up at the night sky, you and I don't see the same thing. You see with your eyes. I can see God in that night sky, and I can see God in a person. You expect people to see only what you see.

 

[Lux Veritatis]

Because my perception of things is not the same as yours. When you and I look up at the night sky, you and I don't see the same thing. You see with your eyes. I can see God in that night sky, and I can see God in a person. You expect people to see only what you see.

You are seeing things—hallucinations.

 

[Selene]

You are seeing things—hallucinations.

What makes you so sure that they are hallucinations? Don't you know that there are some things in life that science cannot explain?