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A Vitally Important Subject - The Locust of the Book of Joel - Who are they?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Vengle, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses see themselves as the locust in the book of Joel?

    But before I discuss that further I want to talk about how God says concerning that insect army, Joel 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

    I want to discuss how that is possible figuratively and the individuals that played that role having repented yet be saved.
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I didn't know that about your first statement. Never heard it before. Yet they ain't (and no, I'm not one of them).

    The locusts metaphor is figurative, for "a nation" per Joel 1:6.

    And those who represent the locusts are far... from repentance today. Instead, they work directly against Christ Jesus.
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    From JW's book Revelations Grand Climax at Hand:
    The Locust Plague Today
    [sup]5[/sup] Reasonably, we could expect Joel’s prophecy to have a final fulfillment in the time of the end. How true this has proved to be! At the Bible Students’ convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A., September 1-8, 1919, a notable outpouring of Jehovah’s spirit activated his people to organize a global campaign of preaching. Of all professed Christians, they alone, recognizing that Jesus had been enthroned as heavenly King, spared no effort in publishing abroad that good news. Their relentless witnessing, in fulfillment of prophecy, became as a tormenting plague to apostate Christendom.—Matthew 24:3-8, 14; Acts 1:8.

    [sup]8[/sup] As John observes, the release of the locusts is accompanied by much smoke, like “the smoke of a great furnace.” That is how it proved to be in 1919. The situation darkened for Christendom and for the world in general. (Compare Joel 2:30, 31.) The release of those locusts, the John class, was actually a defeat for Christendom’s clergy, who had schemed and plotted to kill the Kingdom work for good and who now rejected God’s Kingdom. Evidence of a smokelike pall started to spread over apostate Christendom as that locust band was given divine authority and began to exercise it in proclaiming powerful judgment messages. Christendom’s “sun”—her appearance of enlightenment—suffered an eclipse, and “the air” became thick with declarations of divine judgment as “the ruler of the authority of the air” of this world was shown to be Christendom’s god.—Ephesians 2:2; John 12:31; 1 John 5:19.
    Locusts Equipped for Battle
    [sup]13[/sup] What a remarkable appearance those locusts have! John describes it: “And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle; and upon their heads were what seemed to be crowns like gold, and their faces were as men’s faces, but they had hair as women’s hair. And their teeth were as those of lions; and they had breastplates like iron breastplates. And the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle.”—Revelation 9:7-9.
    [sup]14[/sup] This well illustrates the loyal group of revived Christians in 1919. Like horses, they were ready for battle, eager to fight for the truth in the way described by the apostle Paul. (Ephesians 6:11-13; 2 Corinthians 10:4) On their heads John sees what seem to be crowns as of gold. It would not be proper for them to have actual crowns because they do not begin ruling while they are still on earth. (1 Corinthians 4:8; Revelation 20:4) But in 1919 they already had a royal appearance. They were brothers of the King, and their heavenly crowns were reserved for them provided they continued faithful to the end.—2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4.


     
  4. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I want to be clear that I am not a Jehovah's Witness. One that I know gave me their old library cd when they received their new one. Therefore I have their books and magazine articles up to 2008 all on cd.

    They see the locusts as a good thing. And they see themselves as those lucusts. I see them as used to start a plague of arguing over doctrine. And that is the thing I say it is vitally important to realize. We of the world-wide church have been infected by a plague which causes us to eat and devour and consume each other over doctrine.

    That is what I see Joel as being about in our day. And the JW's were that nation which stirred this up. In its first fulfilment it was a literal nation. In the present day fulfilment it is a spiritual nation.

    I am yet trying to understand this. That is why I have asked for your comments about it.
     
  5. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Those are interesting thoughts, Vengle. :)

    I think ultimately we have chosen this path, and we destroy each other because we have made our own doctrines. Though the JW movement is probably not helping, I don't see it as 'they are the problem'.

    There is a great lack of maturity in the church, the great apostasy is here. People walk according to the doctrines of men, rather than following Christ. We have not come together under his authority to be transformed into his likeness and to be intimate with him. Rather we have meetings that are superficial and we come together two hours a week.

    It is not what we were called to.
     
  6. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Wow!!!

    That comment rings so deep and true that I am forced to have to savour in it a while.

    And you are only 19?

    Wow. The amazing power of God.
     
  7. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Well, beyond all that above, i.e., like subtle suggestions that we can't know the season of the locusts, if that's what is being said indirectly, there truly is a way to know per Scripture.

    In Christ's Olivet Discourse upon the Mount of Olives, He gave seven specific signs to be watching for the end times events. With the parable of the fig tree, He pointed to the sign of the last generation when to start looking for those seven signs. It involved Israel becoming a nation again in 1948.

    So in 1919, the START of the seven signs had not yet begun.

    Further, without proper Bible study in the Book of Joel and Revelation 9 together, what the locusts represent won't even be understood.

    Sorry if that steps on some toes here, but this is why so many are so easily led astray... by men's doctrines, because some just won't discipline themselves in God's Word for themselves first.
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I do not know for a certainty but I do suspect that the reformation of Israel in 1948 may mark the beginning of the time of the end. And if that be the case and we apply the 70 or 80 years that the Psalms speaks of a man's generation coming to be, then we would be looking at all things pertaining to this world being complete between 2018 to to 2028.

    That is of course shear speculation.

    Matthew Henry's Commentary on Joel seems to support that what Joel was actually speaking of was a litteral insect plague upon Judah. And it is my personal suspicion that Judah typifies the Catholic church leaders of our day.

    Of particular interest is the call, (Joel 1:5) "Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth."

    This puts me in mind of the drunkards of Ephraim spoken of at Isaiah chapter 28.

    Ephraim was the outspoken tribe of the ten tribe kingdom of Israel. Ephraim lead the entire ten tribe kingdon to place their trust in the nations of this world more so than in God. What Ephraim lead that ten tribe kingdom into was in fact fornication with the nations. And many of the churches today have acted as Ephraim doing that same thing.

    We thus see that account in Isaiah 28 opens up saying, Isaiah 28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

    I find it interesting that just as the nation of Israel broke into two principal parts, Christianity today has also done so with Catholicism and Protestanism. And so I see that the drunkards of Ephraim is likely better looked for in the Protestant sector of Christendom while the drunkards of Joel perhaps might be seen more of Catholicism. And just look at the devistation which is occuring in the Catholic church.
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The locusts of the Book of Joel involves our Lord Jesus' parable of the tares lesson. It's ultimate pointer is to the followers of the devil and their systems of control being used to overcome the earth. It's given to God's people Israel. God tells His people to look if it has happened in their day, and tell their children about it, and their children's children, until they see it occur.

    Could it apply to Rome today, and Protestant Christianity too? Yes, it applies to the whole earth, to the joining of all nations and all systems under one controlling group called "one world government" or "New World Order". The world financial, political, and educational control has already come to pass, even though it's still developing. World religion is where the main working today is. Revelation 13 gives us the blueprint for it, so it's not as if it's some new thing that's been going on. Some see it, others don't want to, and others cannot.

    That's basically what the four stages of the development of the locust in Joel 1:4 represents. They are a certain "nation" of people joined on the earth doing it. One could easily associate it with the Communist International and Fabian Socialists, who both have declared plans to bring all nations under control of a super government.

    Joel 1:6-7
    6 For a nation is come up upon My land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
    7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
    (KJV)

    But in Revelation 9, they are shown with an additional role involving religion, faces of men with teeth like lions, hair as women, breastplates of iron, and riding horses to battle. In Joel are given several end time event markers, so all one need do is look at what's been going on in the world today.

    As for the 1948 timing, that's when the fig tree was set out with Israel becoming a nation again. It was then, after 1945 that most of the U.N. influences really took off. One of the signs Christ gave is about His elect being delivered up to give a Testimony, and now FEMA has started building internment camps in the U.S. which they claim is to house homeless subject to national disasters. Yet they include small cells and barbed wire. So it's a little late in the day for those not watching.
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I find that explanation very intriguing Veteran.

    It sounds reasonable. It rings as though it could be true.

    I am not real deep into this subject but I am in the process of scratching at its surface.

    I am going to take a little time to compare what you have said there as I go back and read the places you mentioned.

    Thank you for sharing that perspective with me.
     
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