1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Abraham, by faith or works

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Faith is the same as believing.

    James 2:20-21
    20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
    (NKJ)

    FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

    Genesis 15:4-6
    4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
    5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
    6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
    (NKJ)

    FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. -- It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

    James writes:
    22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
    24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

    FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
     
  2. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

    Messages:
    1,237
    Likes Received:
    31
    There is no contradiction...Genesis 26.5 God says Abraham obeyed His commands, laws and ordinances and found favour with God....
    As to contradiction between James and Paul which you allege, there is NO contradiction whatever...James says "faith without works is dead" and Paul says in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law" and "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers of the law"...
    If there is any confusion, it is in your mind. It is recommended you study your Bible and quit listening to false doctrines and teachings you have obviously been receiving.
     
  3. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    A lot of words that say nothing about the FACTS brought out in the OP. You are like a broken record that says the same thing to every post you don't like. Until you can offer proof that gets around the obvious Facts that are discussed in the OP I have nothing to say to you.
     
  4. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    2,638
    Likes Received:
    1,263
    Faith:
    Christian
    I heard this on the radio a couple days ago.
     
  5. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

    Messages:
    1,237
    Likes Received:
    31
    The Bible is not proof to you? That figures, as you appear to be in denial.
     
    Born_Again likes this.
  6. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ***
    It appears that you can not refute the FACTS in the OP.
     
  7. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

    Messages:
    1,237
    Likes Received:
    31
    You do not realize Acts 15 is referring to the sacrificial, circumcision, food etc laws of Moses...you do not know that..that says it all about your knowledge level on this subject.
    God says in Genesis 26 Abraham kept God's laws and ordinances, and thereby found favour with God...
    That kind of bursts your bubble a bit right? Oops forgot you in denial!
     
  8. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ***
    Show me your proof in the scriptures. Your assumptions are just that, your assumptions.

    I did not know that the law was given to Abraham. I thought the scriptures say they were given to Moses. If the following is your basis

    Gen 26:5
    5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
    NKJV

    The only commandment that was given to Abraham was;


    Gen 26:2-4
    2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said:"Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you.
    3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.
    4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
    NKJV

    So you see you took a scripture out of context the support your ideas. Just wonderful!!!!
     
  9. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

    Messages:
    1,237
    Likes Received:
    31
    You are still in denial....keep studying and you will eventually see the truth of the Bible...as Jesus said "know the truth and it will make you free" John 8.
     
  10. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ***
    I have noticed that you say this statement to anyone when you don't have a thoughtful reply. I think it is you that are in denial, denying that you don't know as much as you think you do. Don't you ever get tired of talking about the posters. No I guess not. It is your way getting around not having any scriptural support for what you believe. You are the "GADFLY" of this forum. Look it up in the dictionary.
     
  11. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    7
    You are seeing what you want to see.

    For example:

    FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

    Is an argument from ignorance as the fact it is not literally in the context does not mean it is not true, Now, if instead of immediately claiming James is a false teacher you may instead that his words are true. In that case it follows that he derived that teaching of James 2:22-24 from Genesis 26 and other places of Scripture. In fact 1 John 5:3 teaches us obedience to God. Of course you imply John is a false teacher every time you accuse one of the new testament authors your bible is getting thinner and thinner. I hope that is not your intention.

    So given what John states then it follows that Abraham reveals his Love by his fruit and God reciprocates that Love because he rewards those that seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

    In conclusion the fact derived by inductive reasoning is that Abraham was called friend by God because of his obedience and that obedience came and still comes by faith.
     
  12. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

    Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

    Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

    Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.
    Justification
     
    Born_Again likes this.
  13. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ***
    How many times does a person have to be justified??
     
  14. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    7
    What do you think the word justified means?
     
  15. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    7
    In the case of James words of Abraham being justified by works and faith and not just his faith the best definition I see is "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered....".

    Note:The definition comes from Thayer's Greek Lexicon entry for dikaioó as it is cited on Biblehub. It is definition #2.
     
  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ***
    Please answer the question, "How many times does a person have to be justified??"
     
  17. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    653
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ***
    I have a dictionary,

    to be free from blame, declared guiltless, acquit, absolve

    I am still asking, how many time must a person be declared justified before he/she is justified?
     
  18. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    7
    Thank you! Note that I did not use a dictionary but instead used a Koine Greek lexicon.
     
  19. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

    Messages:
    1,237
    Likes Received:
    31
    Aren't you a little sweetheart!!! LOL... you have trouble reading the Bible I have concluded, so I will have to reiterate for you...
    Genesis 26 God said 'Abraham kept my laws and ordinances"...so he must have had faith first, and then kept the laws and ordinances...
    Abraham found favour with God for his faith and his works....hope that is simple enough for you right?
     
  20. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,234
    Likes Received:
    2,194
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I think you made a mistake when you said " before he had done anything to prove his 'faith' in God". Heb. 11:8-19 shows the faith of Abraham in leaving Ur, in sojourning in the land, and in looking for a city of God. Then last on the list is his offering up of Isaac.

    And it seems James is speaking to this evidence of faith through works when he says in 2:22, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    Without a doubt Abraham was declared righteous based on his faith only in believing Gods promise of having a son. But the faith he had to do that was already in him.

    Stranger
     
Loading...