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Featured Absolute Predestination:

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Dave L, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

    At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

    Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

    Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

    Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

    1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created for us to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

    This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.
     
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  2. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    The first set of verses from Romans 9, Calvinists believe prove absolute predestination.

    21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    However, we have to take responsibility for our own lives.:

    2 Timothy 2 says,
    20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
     
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  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    That's part of his plan for you. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)
     
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  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This statement is self-contradictory and not based on Bible truth.

    If God foreordained "whatever comes to pass" then it would mean that God also planned "whatever comes to pass". Which makes God totally responsible for absolutely every event which has or which will occur on earth.

    Which also means that God becomes totally responsible for every sin and evil deed committed on earth. Since the clergy who put this Confession together realized that this would be blasphemy, they put in a caveat which contradicts the above statement -- "in such a way that he is not the author of sin".

    The true Bible position is that God has ABSOLUTE FOREKNOWLEDGE of all things, and there are SOME things which He has decreed or foreordained or pre-determined for His own plans and purposes, e.g. the crucifixion of Christ.
     
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  5. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    1 Peter 2:6-8
    [6] Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. [7] Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, [8] And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

    Was does the “...whereunto also they were appointed.” mean?
     
  6. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Another thing that God predestined was that He would have His own people, the children of Israel, stiff-necked as they were. He called them "His elect." But not all of them were saved. If you read Paul's introduction of Ephesians 1 carefully you will see it is the Jews who were predestined and also the apostles who were "the first" to receive the gospel. Even then, Judas was not saved. The Ephesians also believed but by foreknowledge. "Whosoever believes." The choice is ours. The responsibility is ours to submit. The Jews were not forced to be saved, even though they were God's elect. There are enough examples of the power of man's choices that can override God's desires, as it is not His desire that any perish, to see that if we are damned, it is not God who willed it, as is blasphemously taught. But if we submit to Him, He will fulfill the plans He has for us.
     
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    We should start by looking at the Greek word translated as "appointed".
    Strong's Concordance (5087)
    tithémi: to place, lay, set
    Original Word: τίθημι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: tithémi
    Phonetic Spelling: (tith'-ay-mee)
    Definition: to place, lay, set
    Usage: I put, place, lay, set, fix, establish.

    Therefore we could legitimately say "for which they were also placed [upon the earth]" instead of "whereunto also they were appointed". So how does this fit into our understanding of the character of God and the character of Christ's enemies?

    Christ was sent to be a precious Stone (the chief spiritual Corner Stone) to Israel and to the Church. But those who rejected Him, hated Him, and became disobedient to the Gospel, made Him a stumbling Stone, and more than that -- a Stone which would fall on them and crush them to powder.

    In this context God's true *decree* was for all to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the King-Messiah of Israel. Therefore He certainly did not foreordain some to become His enemies. But in His divine FOREKNOWLEDGE God had already *placed* (appointed) these men on earth so that when Christ came He would become a "Rock of offence" to them. Thus we seen in Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, and other Messianic Psalms that Jesus would be hated and put to death by evil men.
     
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  8. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Active Member

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    Here we go, Dave L. The Bible shows that predestination and freewill are not mutually exclusive but rather they are complimentary. This is similar to space and time to use an analogy from physics. If I chose to travel south on State Highway One from my location in NZ I am predestined to go where the road goes - to Wellington our capital city. God is free to intervene at any point and cause a different outcome, and since He always knows all that is knowable He foreknows the outcome of every act of human volition and of course His own acts. Lately I've been immersed in the realisation that the fulfilment of all that is revealed in the book of Revelation is as exactly as you have titled this thread - Absolute Predestination.
     
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  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Free will reacts to reason. Every choice you make is for the reasons God created along with you. He controls you through the choices you want to make, based on the reasons he placed in your path.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You are right. God is the creator of all including evil. But he uses it for the highest good and for his glory. But you are responsible for your sin because you want to make the choices you do, according to the reasons he uses to control your free choices.
     
  11. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Do you know how vast “to place, lay, set” is? Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, ...appointed?

    Job 20:27-29
    [27] The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. [28] The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. [29] This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.

    Jude 1:4
    [4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
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  12. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    C'mon, we only care about predestination as it applies to humans.
    The NT teaches that ...
    God chose some humans before the foundation of the world,
    predestining them to be the chosen and called ones ...
    that they would become holy, live holy lives, etc.

    IMO, some of the ones who are chosen to be BACs (and do become BACs)
    ... actually later choose to reject God, i.e. they choose to "fall away from the faith",
    which causes them to "fall from grace". They have "drawn back to perdition".

    So IMO, we have 3 major types:
    the unbelievers, the fallen BACs, and the faithful BACs.
    WOW! ... Could this actually be true?
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    It depends on the person. Some people are interested in cars. Some like TV. Some like food. But predestination and the things of God intrigue me more than anything else.
     
  14. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Active Member

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    The best thing about being foreknown of God in the intimate eternal sense of His knowing us as those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, is that He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. Really looking forward to that.
    Rom 8:29
    (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
     
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  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    SET THEM = PLACED THEM

    I believe you need to understand what foreknowledge means. It is not the same as predestination or predetermination. It simply means knowing beforehand.
     
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  16. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Maybe so. I get “ordained”. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Daniel 12:2-4
    [2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. [4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    What I don’t get is how it soothes to say God already had foreknowledge a person would reject Him so therefore they become 1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

    Colossians 1:16-17
    [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
     
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  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    When God looked at the earthly ministry of Christ long before He created the world, He already saw how the Lord would be despised and rejected by His own people -- the Jews. He already saw each and every individual who would be involved in the conspiracy against Christ. He already saw Judas betraying his Master. He already saw Peter denying Christ.

    1. Therefore we see that immediately after creation (about 4000 years before the crucifixion), God said this to Satan regarding the crucifixion:And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Gen 3:15).

    *thee* = Satan
    *the woman* = Eve ("the mother of all living") and her progeny (the human race)
    *thy seed* = "ye are of your father the devil" = the enemies of Christ
    *her seed* = *made of a woman* = the Lord Jesus Christ
    *it shall bruise thy head* = the destruction of the works of the devil at the Cross
    *thou shalt bruise his heel* = Christ crucified through the machinations of Satan using evil men and the coward Pilate.

    2. David prophesied regarding the enemies of Christ about 1,000 years before the crucifixion. See the Psalms.

    3. Isaiah prophesied about the enemies of Christ about 600 years before the crucifixion.

    The only way that the prophets could prophesy about this event is through the Holy Spirit, who knew all of this long before it happened. This reveals the foreknowledge of God, not that He himself instigated enmity against His beloved Son. So in God's foreknowledge, all these enemies were *placed* or * appointed* or *ordained* to be present during the earthly ministry of Christ.

    But the key is that the crucifixion itself was predetermined and foreordained before the foundation of the world: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain (Acts 2:23)

    Who was held responsible? The wicked Jewish religious leaders.
    Who predetermined the crucifixion? God Himself.
     
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  18. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Active Member

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    Have you had a good look at John 15, VIJ? The biological principle of branches either living or dying depending on whether they receive nourishment is a picture of those who abide in Christ or not. The Gardener deems the dead branches useless as they do not produce fruit and then and only then are they destined to be burned. It is not through any fault of the Gardener that the stubborn branches become dead.
     
  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think it is the Gardner’s fault. That is not what I meant to imply at all, but rather...possibly...we need to be careful in saying God had foreknowledge a person would reject Him and He had foreknowledged we wouldn’t reject Him and that is why He choose us over another. That implies I had something to do with God choosing me when I didn’t. And if they(those not chosen) had something to do with not being chosen of God...then what? Do we have our reason (why us and not them) that makes sense?

    Revelation 17:15-17
    [15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. [16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. [17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  20. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    This is a difficult thing to understand without first understanding the true nature of time. Even scientifically time is an illusion. But more importantly, God tells us right up front that it is a mere "created" "image."

    In the proper light...if we overlay what "is" in the world with an accurate understanding of the "I am" eternal nature of God - all that we experience in the world...simply "is."

    All of which says, that the chronological nature of our worldly experience is not a reality...but a revelation, a revelation of what "is" already, and eternal. Meaning, that what we are just now experiencing, is simply what we personally have been in the dark about and are just now coming to know and experience. Thus it is all a revelation, rather than a chronological reality as perceived. Which makes the word of God and literally our everyday life: media, rather than space, time, and matter. Thus, predestination is rather, pre-revelation.

    But who can hear it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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