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brakelite

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I am not a builder, but I’ve knocked up a few dog boxes over the years. A building inspector would not have been impressed but the dogs loved them. Set me loose on a larger project however like a house, or even a garage, and it will soon become apparent that I am not even vaguely familiar with the laws and principles that govern design, architecture, carpentry, engineering or any other associated trade. I would be quite hamstrung by my lack of familiarity and knowledge.



A skilled tradesman however, through his knowledge, experience and obedience to the the laws that govern the building trade can erect a house that is safe and habitable, and he may also add his own personal touches to enhance it’s appearance.

The same with music. One who keeps to the laws of harmony, rhythm, and melody may add personality to the music and the result is pleasant and acceptable to the ears.

But put someone like me in charge of building a house who doesn’t understand and therefore cannot obey the appropriate laws and you will end up with a leaky house that will inevitably fall over in the first wind. Put me in charge of a concerto and you will finish with punk rock.

All walks of life are the same, and are governed by law. Trade, commerce, sport, entertainment, politics, society as a whole. All have laws.

Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid? Shall not God have laws also to govern His kingdom? Yet so many claim that Christians are exempt, or ‘free’ from the laws of God. Shall the Creator of the universe, who placed such awesome natural laws in place to govern the physical (eg gravity) universe, then choose to dispense with laws altogether to govern the spiritual? Shall the powers and rulers of this world legislate law to govern society yet the God who allows those same powers to rule have no law?

I would like to suggest that God’s laws are as valid and as binding ,even more so, than any other law. Even more so for the Christian who claims God as his Father. As can be seen from the examples above, familiarity and obedience to law, enables us to express ourselves with true freedom. The more familiar and experienced we become, the better the craft we practice, the greater the skill we are able to employ. In whatever trade, hobby or pastime we apply ourselves to, if we obey the laws that govern those particular areas of our lives we can then add our own personality to them and we are then leading a more fulfilled, ordered, purposeful and complete life.

Jesus promises an abundant life to all who love and know Him. This abundancy can only be fully realised as we obey the laws of God that He has put in place for our good, and our welfare.

I don't know if this is related to the current discussions elsewhere associated with "free will", but I do believe true freedom comes only within the confines of law: outside of law freedom becomes chaos, disorder, lawlessness, and in the spiritual realm, death.
 

Taken

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Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid? Shall not God have laws also to govern His kingdom? Yet so many claim that Christians are exempt, or ‘free’ from the laws of God. Shall the Creator of the universe, who placed such awesome natural laws in place to govern the physical (eg gravity) universe, then choose to dispense with laws altogether to govern the spiritual? Shall the powers and rulers of this world legislate law to govern society yet the God who allows those same powers to rule have no law?

I would say;

The TEN Commandments were given Gods People.

Gods People are they WHO, agreed/agree to be in Belief in God and follow His Commands.
A People God called Israel.

The TWO Commandments were given Lord Jesus Christ's People.

The Lord Jesus Christ's People are they WHO, agreed/agree to be in Belief in God the Father, Jesus the Son and Christ the Power (Holy Spirit) of God and follow His Commands.
A People Christ Jesus the Lord God, called His Church.

For One to say, THEY ARE Obedient to the TEN Commandments ARE: THEY WHO "were/are" Under the Law of Moses, ie Israel.

For One to say, THEY ARE NOT Under the Law of Moses, NOT Under the TEN Commandments....REQUIRES to Know that Individual's STANDING.

STANDING ~ one may be WITHOUT belief;
Thus THEY, are Irrelevant to my Point.

STANDING ~ of one IN Christ, their StANDING is NOT Under Mosaic Law, and NOT Under the TEN Commandments. (Per'se).

They would BE UNDER the TWO Commandments of Christ Jesus.
Christ Jesus' People.
Christ Jesus' Church.

Matt 22 reveals a question posed to Jesus.
Matt 22 reveals Jesus' answer, and Jesus expounding beyond the question.
Matt 22 reveals Jesus' expounding of TWO Great Commandments.

MATT 22
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Matt 22 also reveals Jesus' ENCOMPASSING POINT, which explains HIS POINT, to which I agree.

MATT 22
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


(Per'se)
The TEN Commandments STILL APPLY to a man who REMAINS Under Mosaic Law (typically applicable to Jews).

The TWO Commandments APPLY to a man who Belives the Mosaic Law has BEEN FULFILLED and are Converted IN Christ and And the TWO Commandments are the Great Commands that APPLY to THEM.
(Typically applicable to Gentiles).

FURTHER Understanding:

The TEN Commandments REQUIRED a MAN (by his own POWER) to KEEP those Commandments.
(As well as the 600+ Mosaic Laws created under the Umbrella of the Ten Commandments).

The TWO Commandments Jesus' Reveals as the GREAT Commandments for a man Converted IN Christ..
Has an ADDItiONAL REVELATION;

Which IS;
FOR a MAN IN CHRIST JESUS; IT IS THE Internal POWER (Holy Spirit) of God, that IS the POWER within a man, THAT KEEPS the man in ADHERENCE and OBEDIENCE the TWO GREAT Commandments.

^ THAT is the Revelation; Men can NOT by their own Power KEEP the Law.
^ THAT is the Revelation; Men WITH Christ, are GIFTED the Holy Spirit, (His Power), for the man TO KEEP the TWO Great Commands.

A man "IN Christ" rightly says he is NOT Under the Law.

"IN Christ" is the clue; A man Believes Jesus Fulfilled the Law, the man IS Converted, and the POWER of God KEEPS the man in Obedience to the Two Great Commands.

Christians say; ?
Not all calling themselves Christians, ARE Converted. Many are following and learning, but have NOT committed. (Confessed, saved or born again).

Christians say; ?
Christians regularly Parrot (like all other men) what they HEAR, Without KNOWING the facts of How or Why.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid?

You asked I’m assuming a legitimate question and wanted replies. Since I might be one of those people I’ll try to explain or consider your question as of why? (This is only speaking for why I struggle there, not speaking for others.)

1) Fear. God warned about returning to the carnal law in believing it would make one perfect. As a dog returns to his vomit. Regurgitated self-proclaimed works that end in death more abundant. There is nothing good I’ve ever done, accomplished, or sowed without God and never was there any perfection even when I attempted to follow the carnal law since I was sold under sin. The flesh perishes the same today as it did yesterday held and kept under the law of sin and guilty of breaking every commandment of God.

2) A disconnect. Often I’m unsure exactly what someone means when they speak of keeping God’s Law and maybe misunderstand, on my part assuming they mean still being under the Mosiac Law of Moses written in stone...when that is not what they are saying at all. Maybe if I understood them we would agree.

3) never would push or condone murdering a person. Never would I tell someone to kill or steal. These laws I was fully aware of from a child up...only none of them makes perfect. Maybe ...There are people right now which follow those ten commands given to Moses and still do not know God as their Father. For instance Honour Mother and Father which is of this world instead of the world to come which is Honour God your Father and your Mother the New Jerusalem which is from above and free. Which leads to 4th reason:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is Spiritual. Period. Not carnal but Spiritual. The carnal man of flesh can not and never will keep the Law but is destoryed by the Law, made to appear exceedingly sinful. Romans 7:13-14
[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Honour Father and Mother in this world is going to be tough when several times the Lord said you must love these things less. Father and Mother of this world...but the Law is Spiritual and power of the world to come in Love Your Father which is God and the Mother of us all from above (New Jerusalem) ...THIS Spiritual Law is the only Law that makes “perfect” because Spirit gives it (in the Revelation of the Son)and Spirit breathes(lives) in God is the Father and therefore Spiritual children are born out of, from the mother which is above. hounour my mother and the three men within the role of father in my life can not make perfect...only Honour of God and the Mother of the Free makes perfect which is Spirit.

Hebrews 7:15-19
[15] And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, [16] Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17] For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [18] For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

“...not after the law of a carnal commandment, but of the power of an endless life.” The carnal commandment...that which went before that power of endless life...that carnal shadow of the power of endless life was unprofitable and weak. For that Law(carnal) made nothing perfect. It was all to reveal the vanity of mankind under the bondage of sin and corruption(vanity), and to show that vain man of the flesh(his sin) which is weak and profits nothing. The children are to move on from Repentance from dead works...to perfection which resides in the Spiritual Law and not the carnal of death more abundant.


“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”

“In vain” consider that flesh...carnality. He called the children out of vanity of religion and the works of man to be (seen)holy. Saying the power of God is there and a new birth has taken place therefore taking on His name ...then pushing the carnal law and works of religion which is unprofitable and weak (beggarly) and the end thereof is death abundant and not Life abundant in Christ.

“Keep the Sabbath day holy.” Hebrews 3:11-12 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

The Rest is Christ. The fruit is Spirit. The children enter in. This is the day of rest. I’m sorry if that offends you but even if in my own goodness I keep every sabbath (once I figure out which day of the week is the real sabbath debated among men) ...It is unprofitable and weak and can not make perfect. “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ; by the which we draw nigh unto God.“

The hope of: Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

This Hope of Romans 8:29 is in The “obedience of Christ” by which the children draw near to God. The obedience of Christ is the rest the children are to enter into and keep Holy and remember and Honour and obey...this entering into is not carnal or beggarly or weak or unprofitable...this Hope is Spiritual and is of the power of the world to come which is in the resurrection Life more abundant in the Son. Revelation 14:13
[13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

“...says the Spirit,” not men “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from hereforth:...THAT they may REST from their labours...” in HIS name.

Don’t understand, maybe there is a disconnect on my part in communication but how can anyone believe observing days of the week, nursing a debatable shadow of what was to come which is greater ...not see Christ is our Sabbath and the only sabbath (day of rest) that can make perfect? Not in the keeping days.

Romans 2:19-26
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, [20] An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. [21] Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? [22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?—-blasphemed is saying one keeps the law and doesn’t. Circumcision made with hands of men...was a shadow. Did not make perfect. Circumcision made of God (made without the hands of men) ...makes perfect. Same as observing Sabbath’s and holy days...was a shadow. Did not make perfect those who tried to keep it. The sabbath of God’s rest which IS the resurrected Christ(seen in the flesh, justified in the Spirit) ..makes perfect.

Not saying we do not lead an honest life...only that someone judging you outwardly and pronouncing you condemned by what men find favorable in sight...is death more abundant ...not life more abundant “in Christ.”

Also acknowledge we are not to give men an occasion to speak evil of the children. But children of God brought into the court system and judged of men...even if they have kept the laws of the land (this world), under a blind vain deceived system are found guilty and falsely accused. Should the children not know, that though they may observe such things that these do not make perfect but only One makes perfect which is God?

Romans 13:10
[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

“love” is the fulfilling of the law. Love is fulfilled in the fruit, the fruit which is called of God: the fruit of the Spirit. It is attributed to the Spirit and not men.

Help me understand how keeping a sabbath day of the week which is carnal, weak, and does not make perfect...is better than the sabbath (rest) of God which is entering in the Son which does make perfect and is the power of the world to come? Is remaining in the keeping of days of the carnal, weak, and that which does not make perfect...the unbelief that keeps one from entering into what does make perfect which is the “obedience of Christ.”
 
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Dave L

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I am not a builder, but I’ve knocked up a few dog boxes over the years. A building inspector would not have been impressed but the dogs loved them. Set me loose on a larger project however like a house, or even a garage, and it will soon become apparent that I am not even vaguely familiar with the laws and principles that govern design, architecture, carpentry, engineering or any other associated trade. I would be quite hamstrung by my lack of familiarity and knowledge.



A skilled tradesman however, through his knowledge, experience and obedience to the the laws that govern the building trade can erect a house that is safe and habitable, and he may also add his own personal touches to enhance it’s appearance.

The same with music. One who keeps to the laws of harmony, rhythm, and melody may add personality to the music and the result is pleasant and acceptable to the ears.

But put someone like me in charge of building a house who doesn’t understand and therefore cannot obey the appropriate laws and you will end up with a leaky house that will inevitably fall over in the first wind. Put me in charge of a concerto and you will finish with punk rock.

All walks of life are the same, and are governed by law. Trade, commerce, sport, entertainment, politics, society as a whole. All have laws.

Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid? Shall not God have laws also to govern His kingdom? Yet so many claim that Christians are exempt, or ‘free’ from the laws of God. Shall the Creator of the universe, who placed such awesome natural laws in place to govern the physical (eg gravity) universe, then choose to dispense with laws altogether to govern the spiritual? Shall the powers and rulers of this world legislate law to govern society yet the God who allows those same powers to rule have no law?

I would like to suggest that God’s laws are as valid and as binding ,even more so, than any other law. Even more so for the Christian who claims God as his Father. As can be seen from the examples above, familiarity and obedience to law, enables us to express ourselves with true freedom. The more familiar and experienced we become, the better the craft we practice, the greater the skill we are able to employ. In whatever trade, hobby or pastime we apply ourselves to, if we obey the laws that govern those particular areas of our lives we can then add our own personality to them and we are then leading a more fulfilled, ordered, purposeful and complete life.

Jesus promises an abundant life to all who love and know Him. This abundancy can only be fully realised as we obey the laws of God that He has put in place for our good, and our welfare.

I don't know if this is related to the current discussions elsewhere associated with "free will", but I do believe true freedom comes only within the confines of law: outside of law freedom becomes chaos, disorder, lawlessness, and in the spiritual realm, death.
No offense, but if you need God to threaten to kill you, drive you into exile, and make you sick if you steal or murder, you might not be born again. And what kind of Church needs to be told this?
 
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brakelite

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You asked I’m assuming a legitimate question and wanted replies. Since I might be one of those people I’ll try to explain or consider your question as of why? (This is only speaking for why I struggle there, not speaking for others.)
My first reaction and observation is this... Why have you, and why do so many others, go to such lengths in order to reject the law? The whole tenor of scripture for the believer is a love for the law (See Psalm 119:11,97 for example); ... Jesus came himself prophetically to "uphold the law and make it honorable". The entire direction of your post reflects an animosity...a "do not touch" attitude permeates everything you say. Yet the law (I speak of the ten commandments on stone as you noted, although what was written on stone was not the law of Moses, but the law of God) is a reflection of the character of God. The love you speak of is the righteousness of God, and the law cannot be separated from either.
Are we not to be recreated in the image of Christ? If that image is not in harmony with the law, the whole law, then whose image is it?
But aside from that, the Christian lifestyle, while being in harmony with the law, is not a life whereby the law is the focus. While the architect, the builder, the musician, and the author do not come to the pinnacle of their respective careers through scrupulously studying the laws governing their particular trade, neither does the Christian. But there must be a time whereby the laws must be studied, accepted, and implanted in the psyche as the bottom line in attaining to excellence and experience. What follows is relationship. For the tradesman its relationship with employers...contractors...audience...owners...neighbours etc. For the Christian its relationship with God...family...friends...and church...which all contribute to expression and experience. But the law is never compromised, and if transgressed, seriously affects all our relationships. If we experience any relationship that is suffering, I would suggest that the law...that is love...is at the root of the problem. Repent, then watch the relationship heal.
The crux of the issue is despite protestations to the contrary by such as yourself and the majority of Christian believers, God's laws have not been abrogated. As Jesus said, so long as heaven and earth remain, God's commandments will also remain. The question we must ask ourselves, "do we need to obey them"? I think the answer is obvious.

Now to the Sabbath. You will struggle finding an explicit text teaching that our rest in Christ replaced the rest of the Sabbath, or that Christ "became our Sabbath rest". This is merely human invention. While there is most assuredly a rest to be found in Christ, nowhere is there any suggestion that such a spiritual rest replaces a literal rest on the 7th day as God asks us to do in the commandment. And again, this is about relationship. Israel was told that keeping the Sabbath was a sign that the Lord was sanctifying them. They considered the Sabbath as a day of appointment with God. A day set aside to commune with Him and our fellow man. To take a literal rest from the mundane work and money focused activities of the rest of the week, and spend the day allowing God to recharge our batteries so to speak. Even science agrees that our own body clocks are best managed and recognised by a full rest from work one day in seven. Why not on that day that God appointed as His own? How much better our relationship with the Lord would it be if we are willing to recognize His authority and keep that day holy by not working as He asks? What is there to lose? Why the fear you speak of?

You mentioned that the law is spiritual and not carnal, and that a carnal man cannot keep the law. Who would disagree with that? It is scripture. But what you failed to mention, or should I say what you forgot to ask, is can a spiritual man keep the spiritual law? Does the fact that the law is spiritual remove the literal essence of any of the commandments? For example, does that fact that the law is spiritual mean that physical adultery becomes okay, so long as we don't lust? Thus is working on the Sabbath okay so long as we are resting in Christ, whatever that means.
And where do you get the concept that the Sabbath day is "carnal, weak, and does not make perfect?" What does all that mean exactly? It appears you are simply picking words out of scripture and totally discarding context so long as they sound like they support your viewpoint. You seem to forget that even Paul said the law is perfect and good. And God Himself calls the Sabbath day holy...and that we are asked to keep it that way.
 
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brakelite

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No offense, but if you need God to threaten to kill you, drive you into exile, and make you sick if you steal or murder, you might not be born again. And what kind of Church needs to be told this?
You needed to be told this before you were converted...after all, were you not totally depraved? And today? What excuse do you hold for not keeping the 4th commandment? Perhaps God does need to remind you, and the church, which is why He began the 4th commandment with remember.
 
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Dave L

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You needed to be told this before you were converted...after all, were you not totally depraved? And today? What excuse do you hold for not keeping the 4th commandment? Perhaps God does need to remind you, and the church, which is why He began the 4th commandment with remember.
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant, now replaced by the New. We use them for commentary and instruction, but we are not subject to them. We have the Two Great Commandments that fulfill the Ten when observed instead.
 
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bbyrd009

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You needed to be told this before you were converted...after all, were you not totally depraved? And today? What excuse do you hold for not keeping the 4th commandment? Perhaps God does need to remind you, and the church, which is why He began the 4th commandment with remember.
Ha!
 

VictoryinJesus

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First thank you for a reply as I thought you may be so annoyed with me you wouldn’t bother. Not against you but admit I can be annoying.

As Jesus said, so long as heaven and earth remain, God's commandments will also remain.

2 Corinthians 5:17
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Isaiah 66:22
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord , so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13-14
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

“...that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.” “...found in him...” His rest.

Don’t abhor the Sabbath day you speak of. If God has put in your heart to keep this, not judging you for it. That is my only question is why judge me for not keeping it but rather saying Christ is the Sabbath Rest? Why can we not then do as you say and love despite our differences on days? Why speak with a tone as if I’m beneath you by days of the week?


nowhere is there any suggestion that such a spiritual rest replaces a literal rest

Hebrews 4:8-11
[8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. [9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. [10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. —enter in to Christ the “of another day” Rest for the people of God.


And where do you get the concept that the Sabbath day is "carnal, weak, and does not make perfect?" What does all that mean exactly? It appears you are simply picking words out of scripture and totally discarding context so long as they sound like they support your viewpoint.

Hebrews 7:16-19
[16] Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17] For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [18] For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

“...not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.” Life more abundant. Not carnal and death more abundant.

“...a disannulling of the commandment going before ...FOR the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.” —what does this mean to you then?

The stone was rolled away, the stony heart removed of God...death more abundant(carnal) remained in the grave (tomb)-the Old passed away and Life more abundant was called forth of God —made New. 2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
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marks

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I am not a builder, but I’ve knocked up a few dog boxes over the years. A building inspector would not have been impressed but the dogs loved them. Set me loose on a larger project however like a house, or even a garage, and it will soon become apparent that I am not even vaguely familiar with the laws and principles that govern design, architecture, carpentry, engineering or any other associated trade. I would be quite hamstrung by my lack of familiarity and knowledge.

Hi brakelite,

I like your analogy.

I also have put up my share of small structures (cat tree, storage shed, things like that) and it it patently clear I am not a carpenter.

I can build something, and it will stand, and serve it's purpose, if I don't try for too much, but odds are whatever I build will not be square, and will not keep the wind out. Unless I finish with duct tape, of course!

To me, this is a matter of either:

A) Give me a book of carpentry principles

or

B) Change me into a carpenter.

The carpenter doesn't need the book. And he knows when two nails or one nail is appropriate. But what he does will match the book.

I don't see that we are to follow a rule book, when God has made us into His children.

Much love!
mark
 
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marks

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You needed to be told this before you were converted...after all, were you not totally depraved? And today? What excuse do you hold for not keeping the 4th commandment? Perhaps God does need to remind you, and the church, which is why He began the 4th commandment with remember.

I keep the commandment the way that Hebrews, and Colossian teach me. I rest in the finished work of Christ.

Oh, and I take the day off most Saturdays. But I will admit to cooking, and taking long walks. Oh and to getting caught up on some of the household chores. Of course, I find that restful.

Much love!
mark
 
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marks

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My first reaction and observation is this... Why have you, and why do so many others, go to such lengths in order to reject the law?

From my perspective, I would ask, why hold to the shadow with the Real is here?

If the Sabbath is to prefigure our rest in Christ, once that rest has come, what place has the Sabbath?

I understand your point of view, I think, that commandments given are good for all and for all time.

Not be silly, but no one here is building an ark to escape a flood, even though God commanded it. But that was at a certain time to a certain person for a certain reason.

Jesus said nothing would disappear from the law until all be accomplished, but on the cross He declared It Is Finished.

I don't reject the Law given to the Israelites in a covenant between God and Israel made at Mount Horeb. Neither do I reject God's command to build a big boat.

Much love!
mark
 

marks

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They considered the Sabbath as a day of appointment with God. A day set aside to commune with Him and our fellow man. To take a literal rest from the mundane work and money focused activities of the rest of the week, and spend the day allowing God to recharge our batteries so to speak. Even science agrees that our own body clocks are best managed and recognised by a full rest from work one day in seven. Why not on that day that God appointed as His own? How much better our relationship with the Lord would it be if we are willing to recognize His authority and keep that day holy by not working as He asks? What is there to lose? Why the fear you speak of?

This exemplifies my objection to this doctrine.

The Law would have us rest 1 day in 7. But I believe the Bible teaches us, as the born again children of God, to be at rest at all times. Why only 1 day? Why not all days? I see that as better.

And in defining what the Sabbath is, and how to do it, Jesus declared that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and because of that, Jesus is also Lord of the Sabbath. He is the one to say.

It's just like Mose's prophecy. One like me will come. Anyone who does not hear what He says will be cut off from His people.

Up until Jesus, "he who keep the law shall live by it." But then, it stops being about keeping the Law to live, it becomes about hearing Him.

Upon Jesus' arrival, things changed.

Much love!
Mark
 

Enoch111

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I would like to suggest that God’s laws are as valid and as binding ,even more so, than any other law.
That should be obvious to every Christian. This whole universe (and all science) is governed by natural laws, but the Kingdom of God is governed by moral and spiritual laws as expressed in the Ten Commandments. At the same time we see other laws in action which impact on achieving anything in life including good health.

And the most critical law is the Law of Sowing and Reaping, which was given to Adam in Eden: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:16,17) We see this law in the New Testament as "The wages of sin is death".

Those Ten Commandments were never abolished, and they serve a dual function today: (1) to render every human being guilty before God (therefore in need of the Savior) and (2) once a person is saved by grace, they are embedded within the New Covenant as "the Law of Christ" or "the Law of Liberty", which is distilled into one word -- "Love" or Charity" or "Agape". The first four commandments express love for God, the next six love for your neighbor. Thus Paul says that love is the fulfilling of the Law, and it is by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that Christians express God's love in their words and deeds. This is the same as "walking in the Spirit".

At the same time, love is not necessarily mushy sentimentality, since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself says that "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten". And God's chastening of His children is an expression of love, since only children are chastened (Hebrews 12).
 
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brakelite

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That should be obvious to every Christian. This whole universe (and all science) is governed by natural laws, but the Kingdom of God is governed by moral and spiritual laws as expressed in the Ten Commandments. At the same time we see other laws in action which impact on achieving anything in life including good health.

And the most critical law is the Law of Sowing and Reaping, which was given to Adam in Eden: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:16,17) We see this law in the New Testament as "The wages of sin is death".

Those Ten Commandments were never abolished, and they serve a dual function today: (1) to render every human being guilty before God (therefore in need of the Savior) and (2) once a person is saved by grace, they are embedded within the New Covenant as "the Law of Christ" or "the Law of Liberty", which is distilled into one word -- "Love" or Charity" or "Agape". The first four commandments express love for God, the next six love for your neighbor. Thus Paul says that love is the fulfilling of the Law, and it is by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that Christians express God's love in their words and deeds. This is the same as "walking in the Spirit".

At the same time, love is not necessarily mushy sentimentality, since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself says that "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten". And God's chastening of His children is an expression of love, since only children are chastened (Hebrews 12).
Thanks Enoch, that was the kind of balanced perspective I would have expected from you.
 

marks

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That should be obvious to every Christian. This whole universe (and all science) is governed by natural laws, but the Kingdom of God is governed by moral and spiritual laws as expressed in the Ten Commandments. At the same time we see other laws in action which impact on achieving anything in life including good health.

Hi Enoch111,

I completely agree, all God made is ruled by Laws.

But I disagree that the 10 Commandments are the highest law that can govern us.

I believe being directly led by Jesus is a higher law.

Jesus put Himself over the Sabbath Day, and the context is that the Sabbath is what He says it is, as He uses it to care for the needs of man.

Therefore Jesus also is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus exonerates those who work on the Sabbath if the need arises. Pulling an animal from a pit, caring for the needs of fellow man, like that. Jesus is Lord over everything.

It's like there is a Judge of the Universe, Who wrote out a code of Law to be followed. This was before He started having His Own children. He made a contract with a particular nation, so that through them, the world could get to know Him.

But now He has His Own children, and we serve Him directly, without need of that contract that He used with that one nation. We have a different contract, a better contract.

Much love!
mark
 

Enoch111

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But I disagree that the 10 Commandments are the highest law that can govern us. I believe being directly led by Jesus is a higher law.
Who else but Jesus gave us the Ten Commandments????? Who is it that appeared to Moses in the burning bush and on Mount Sinai? Who wrote on those two tablets of stone with the finger of God, other than Jesus (pre-incarnate)? And then He told us that they are distilled into the two GREATEST commandments. And both those commandments are distilled into one word -- "LOVE" (agape).
 

Enoch111

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Therefore Jesus also is Lord of the Sabbath.
Now because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, He also has the right and the authority to give His Church "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week) in place of the Sabbath. Therefore all the purposes of the sabbath (rest, worship, good works) are fulfilled by Christians on the Lord's Day (provided they take it seriously). The seventh day refers back to the original creation, and because it was marred by sin, the eighth day symbolizes the New Creation in Christ -- the Church. The Lord's Supper and the Lord's Table are reserved for the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath.

Also, Christians should note that the Sabbath was specifically given to Israel, but nowhere in the NT is the Sabbath given to the Church. Indeed it is regarded as the shadow, with Christ as the substance (as pertains to the rest of the soul in Christ).
 

marks

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Who else but Jesus gave us the Ten Commandments????? Who is it that appeared to Moses in the burning bush and on Mount Sinai? Who wrote on those two tablets of stone with the finger of God, other than Jesus (pre-incarnate)? And then He told us that they are distilled into the two GREATEST commandments. And both those commandments are distilled into one word -- "LOVE" (agape).

All true, I think. About love, specifically that love fulfills all the Law and Prophets.

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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Now because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, He also has the right and the authority to give His Church "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week) in place of the Sabbath. Therefore all the purposes of the sabbath (rest, worship, good works) are fulfilled by Christians on the Lord's Day (provided they take it seriously). The seventh day refers back to the original creation, and because it was marred by sin, the eighth day symbolizes the New Creation in Christ -- the Church. The Lord's Supper and the Lord's Table are reserved for the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath.

Also, Christians should note that the Sabbath was specifically given to Israel, but nowhere in the NT is the Sabbath given to the Church. Indeed it is regarded as the shadow, with Christ as the substance (as pertains to the rest of the soul in Christ).

Hi Enoch111,

That sounds fine to me if that is what your faith tells you. I think all the purposes of the Sabbath are fulfilled in the New Covenant Christian every day.

And for the Lord's Supper, why restrict to a given day? Why not as often as you eat and drink, remember the Lord's death? We only get to until He comes.

Interesting point about the Sabbath, creation, and sin. "Behold, I make all things new." And He starts with us.

Much love!
Mark