ACTS 28 SALVATION SENT

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Doug

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28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.


Paul was preaching Jesus to Jews and all that would hear. Paul was preaching Jesus from the scriptures; that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God.


28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It was prophetic that Israel, as a nation, would reject their Saviour.

28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Here is the final pronouncement of the temporary fall of Israel. Paul would turn to the Gentiles as their Apostle in the dispensation of Grace.

Paul would offer the Gospel of Grace to all, both Jew and Gentile.

Israel is only temporarily set aside. In the future, God will once again, turn to Israel and provide salvation.

28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

Below, Paul taught the Kingdom of God; both the heavenly and earthly kingdoms.


28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
 

Ac28

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Did you know that the Greek word translated "departed" in vs 25, is translated as "divorce" or "put away", meaning divorce, 11 times in the NT and 7 times in Matthew - Mt 1:19, 5:31-32, 19:3,7,8,9. I believe Acts of the Apostles 28:25 is when God divorced his "wife", the nation Israel. He must be divorced in order to re-marry the "Bride", the elite inhabitants of the all-Israel New Jerusalem, and I know of no other place in the Bible where it says He divorced them.

The curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 was pronounced 4 unique times in the NT. Three times it was as a warning, but each time something was taken away from Israel as a nation. Each time, it got more severe. For example, in order:
----Matthew 13:14-15. After it was said by Christ in this passage, Christ only spoke to the multitude/Pharisees in parables for the rest of His ministry - vs 34. The Pharisees didn't understand these Parables but they suspected He was talking about them. This "parable" restriction was lifted in Luke 23:34, when Christ prayed "Forgive Them" on the cross. Therefore, Israel had a completely clean slate in Acts 1, bur they failed again
----Romans 11:8. At this pronouncement, some of the Israelites, as branches, were broken off the good olive tree of Israel (and these lost their standing in the nation Israel) and replaced by Gentile believers, for the purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy, so they might repent
----Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27. This was the final and most severe pronouncement of the curse. At this point, Israel was totally set aside, temporarily (for 2000 years), along with everything associated with Israel, like the rapture, the all-Israel Acts church, the gifts, and probably 100 other things, all of which have been stolen by the present day all-Gentile church but, since none of these things were ever given to the Gentiles today, the Gentiles will receive NONE of them, no matter what they believe.

Note that Paul was still going to the Jew first in Acts 28 and that He was bound for the Hope of Israel (not the hope of the Gentiles), Acts of the Apostles 28:20 . These are absolute proofs that NO Gentile church existed during Acts and that Israel was NOT SET ASIDE until the very end of Acts. This, and other things PROVE that A2D, A9D, A13D and any other form of dispensationalism, other than A28D, are faulty

Acts of the Apostles 28:28. There is much to establish that the phrase, "Salvation of God", means a person, Jesus Christ. In Luke 2:30, Simeon said, when he saw the baby, Jesus Christ, "For mine eyes have seen thy salvation." Also, we see that, about 100 times in the OT, the Hebrew word, "Yeshua" is translated "salvation." Also, the Gentiles NEVER had Jesus Christ (or, God) during Acts, Ephesians 2:11-12 , but they do now. So, in Acts 28:28 the Salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Israel lost its position as God's chosen people (Hosea 1:9), and has not existed as a nation, in God's eyes, since about 64AD. Israel's present situation spelled out in Hosea 3:4,
"For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:"
However, Israel will be back in full glory in about 2064, if the 2 days in Hosea 6:2 means 2000 years, and there is nothing to dispute that it doesn't, that I know of. Much of Hosea involves Israel present Loammi (not my people) situation, Hosea 1:9
Hosea 6:2 "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

AFTER ACTS 28.
At this point, EVERYTHING from Acts TOTALLY STOPS, at least temporarily, since it was ALL Israel and Israel no longer exists, (till about 2064). Paul is then given a special revelation directly from Christ ( Ephesians 3:3 ), in the form of a Mystery (secret) hid in God since the world began, Ephesians 3:9 , Colossians 1:26 . This mystery is found only in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts and everything in those epistles is part of The Mystery. It is impossible that anything about it is found in the other 59 books, since it was composed and hid in God since before the OT ever started. Except for Christ, NOTHING in those 59 all-Israel books pertain to us today, in any way concerning our FUTURE. If you want to know anything about your possible future, you can find it ONLY in Paul's 7 after-Acts epistles.

The HUGE difference in Acts doctrine vs after-Acts doctrine, is exemplified in the 2, 100% different Callings.

In the 59 all-Israel books, the Highest Calling possible was the New Jerusalem, the city that comes down out of the created New Heavens and becomes a permanent (as far as we know) part of the New Earth, as it's new capitol. Israel are an earthly people and their original promises involve the earth, the land. In those 59 books, NO JEW is EVER SAID to have a hope of gong to Heaven.

In Paul's 7 post-Acts, all-Gentile books, we find that out hope is to be resurrected directly to the uncreated Heavenly Places, the abode Of God, Far above the created New starry Heavens. We will be seated with Christ at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (where Christ ascended to), Ephesians 2:6 (where we are resurrected to - same place that Christ ascended to).

The rub is, that, if you want to go to Heaven, it MUST be by faith. God first has to give you the eyes of understanding to SEE the hope of your calling, Ephesians 1:17-18 . After you SEE it, you must BELIEVE it, and CLAIM IT. It's all yours if you really want it enough. However, before God gives you those eyes, it seems you must eliminate all things Jewish (which have never belonged to Gentiles) from your doctrine. In the Mystery Epistles, God has provided at least 3 NEW ways (not elsewhere in scripture, since they were never needed until now) to help achieve this.
(1) In Philippians 1:10, it says to approve things that are excellent. In the margin, it instead says, try, or test, the things that differ. So, in comparing the 59 Israel books with the 7 Gentile books, that is easy, since EVERYTHING is different. I know of nothing given to Israel that was ever given to us Gentiles in those 7 epistles, except for Christ. Search and See.
(2) 2Tim 2:15, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." According to Strong's, "rightly dividing" means, without a doubt, to "make a straight cut" or "correctly cut." So, after finding things that differ and approving those that are more excellent (things only for US), we somehow have to cut God's Word of Truth. So, what do we cut, so as to divide it, and where do we cut it? God wants us to do this so we can eliminate those things given to ONLY Israel from our doctrine. If we do divide His Word and do it rightly, as it says in 2Tim 2:15, we will be approved unto Him. In order to make a cut that will divide His word that is 100% Israel, from that which is 100% Gentile, there is only one possible place we can cut it - between the end of Acts and the beginning of Ephesians. NOTHING from Gen 12 through Acts is written TO us or ABOUT us today and EVERYTHING in Paul's post-Acts books is TO us and ABOUT us today. Please note that I'm not saying to totally eliminate those 59 books. God Forbid! They are extremely valuable for our learning. But, as far as telling us about out future and everything that applies to our future, they are for another people at another time.
(3) Col 3:1-4 tells us to focus our attention on things above, Heaven, where our citizenship is, Philippians 3:20 , ESV. It tells us NOT to pay any attention to Earthly things. Everything in those 59 Israel books are EARTHLY, since Israel is 100% earthly. We are not to be concerned with earthly things, since we Gentiles are 100% Heavenly creatures.
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

During the 2000 year period from Gen 12 through Acts, God was calling out humans (Israel) to ultimately occupy the New Earth and the starry New Heavens (via the home base of the New Jerusalem). Each tribe of Israel will have it's own gate, to enter and leave from.

During the present 2000 years, from 64AD through 2064, God is calling out future occupants, all Gentiles, to the Highest Heavens, God's abode. God's masterful plan has covered all the bases and will fill His Universe, with everything in its own perfect order.

Most all of Christendom's un-Biblical beliefs are a result of the infinitely powerful denominational church system. Unfortunately, NO mainstream preacher preaches right division and therefore, they are ALL know-nothings, especially as far as the NT is concerned. Every moment spent in listening to ANY of them degrades one's knowledge another notch lower. Everything I've given here is backed up by scripture, without any manipulation and, if one wants to go to Heaven, rather than ending up on the New Earth, I've outlined the steps they must go through. I know this seems arrogant on my part, but I believe what I'm saying, with zero doubts, and I truly want to see all of you with me in the Heaven of Heavens, and this is the ONLY way you'll ever make it there. If you don't go to Heaven, you'll go through the white throne judgment and end up on the New Earth, with the nation Israel. Any place, where God is all in all, will be marvelous but, to me, Heavenly Places, Far Above All Heavens, the Heaven of Heavens, Glory, is a little more marvelous than any place else.
 
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Ac28

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28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.


Paul was preaching Jesus to Jews and all that would hear. Paul was preaching Jesus from the scriptures; that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God.


28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It was prophetic that Israel, as a nation, would reject their Saviour.

28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Here is the final pronouncement of the temporary fall of Israel. Paul would turn to the Gentiles as their Apostle in the dispensation of Grace.

Paul would offer the Gospel of Grace to all, both Jew and Gentile.

Israel is only temporarily set aside. In the future, God will once again, turn to Israel and provide salvation.

28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

Below, Paul taught the Kingdom of God; both the heavenly and earthly kingdoms.


28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

I agree with everything except your last statement:
"Below, Paul taught the Kingdom of God; both the heavenly and earthly kingdoms."

I see no reason why he would preach the earthly Kingdom that he preached to the Jews. After the final pronouncement of the curse of Isa 6:9-10, in vss 25-27 and, in vs 28, the moment when the Salvation of God (Jesus Christ) was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles, Israel ceased to exist and there was no one to preach the earthly Kingdom to.
 

Frank Lee

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The first things I experienced from denomination preachers, including a personal letter from Adrian Rogers was total unbelief that I had experienced the things from God I witnessed and gave testimony. In other words the denomination was, right and I was deceived.

Men worship indeed the creation more than the creator. I was, shocked when God told me the creation they worship is not the one he made but the denominations with their dead traditions and anti biblical stances that they have made and set upon every nation upon earth.

I'm not the greatest bible scholar on earth but I could and can discern the works of God vs those of Satan who took me captive at his will for the first 33 years of my existence!

People are cowed into submission by men's titles, education and position in denominations. Often overriding their God given discernment for fear of man.

I thank God daily he chose purposefully to come and Convict, save and baptize me in his Holy Spirit outside of the walls or knowlege of any denomination. I owe what I'm able to give to him and him alone for salvation. For the cross, For his blood. For his Holy Spirit.

Yes I owe God's love to those chained to denominational dead dogma but it is rarely received and mostly rejected. You're friends until you begin to mention things God has done for you and spoke to you. After all can you receive anything from someone who believes in opposition to your denomination?This would be heresy.
 

Doug

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Paul taught the Kingdom of God, which is comprised of both earthly and heavenly aspects. He did not preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, but He did reference it when speaking to the Kingdom saints as in 2 Timothy 2:11 to 2:13
 

Acolyte

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Did you know that the Greek word translated "departed" in vs 25, is translated as "divorce" or "put away", meaning divorce, 11 times in the NT and 7 times in Matthew - Mt 1:19, 5:31-32, 19:3,7,8,9. I believe Acts of the Apostles 28:25 is when God divorced his "wife", the nation Israel. He must be divorced in order to re-marry the "Bride", the elite inhabitants of the all-Israel New Jerusalem, and I know of no other place in the Bible where it says He divorced them.

The curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 was pronounced 4 unique times in the NT. Three times it was as a warning, but each time something was taken away from Israel as a nation. Each time, it got more severe. For example, in order:
----Matthew 13:14-15. After it was said by Christ in this passage, Christ only spoke to the multitude/Pharisees in parables for the rest of His ministry - vs 34. The Pharisees didn't understand these Parables but they suspected He was talking about them. This "parable" restriction was lifted in Luke 23:34, when Christ prayed "Forgive Them" on the cross. Therefore, Israel had a completely clean slate in Acts 1, bur they failed again
----Romans 11:8. At this pronouncement, some of the Israelites, as branches, were broken off the good olive tree of Israel (and these lost their standing in the nation Israel) and replaced by Gentile believers, for the purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy, so they might repent
----Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27. This was the final and most severe pronouncement of the curse. At this point, Israel was totally set aside, temporarily (for 2000 years), along with everything associated with Israel, like the rapture, the all-Israel Acts church, the gifts, and probably 100 other things, all of which have been stolen by the present day all-Gentile church but, since none of these things were ever given to the Gentiles today, the Gentiles will receive NONE of them, no matter what they believe.

Note that Paul was still going to the Jew first in Acts 28 and that He was bound for the Hope of Israel (not the hope of the Gentiles), Acts of the Apostles 28:20 . These are absolute proofs that NO Gentile church existed during Acts and that Israel was NOT SET ASIDE until the very end of Acts. This, and other things PROVE that A2D, A9D, A13D and any other form of dispensationalism, other than A28D, are faulty

Acts of the Apostles 28:28. There is much to establish that the phrase, "Salvation of God", means a person, Jesus Christ. In Luke 2:30, Simeon said, when he saw the baby, Jesus Christ, "For mine eyes have seen thy salvation." Also, we see that, about 100 times in the OT, the Hebrew word, "Yeshua" is translated "salvation." Also, the Gentiles NEVER had Jesus Christ (or, God) during Acts, Ephesians 2:11-12 , but they do now. So, in Acts 28:28 the Salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Israel lost its position as God's chosen people (Hosea 1:9), and has not existed as a nation, in God's eyes, since about 64AD. Israel's present situation spelled out in Hosea 3:4,
"For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:"
However, Israel will be back in full glory in about 2064, if the 2 days in Hosea 6:2 means 2000 years, and there is nothing to dispute that it doesn't, that I know of. Much of Hosea involves Israel present Loammi (not my people) situation, Hosea 1:9
Hosea 6:2 "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

AFTER ACTS 28.
At this point, EVERYTHING from Acts TOTALLY STOPS, at least temporarily, since it was ALL Israel and Israel no longer exists, (till about 2064). Paul is then given a special revelation directly from Christ ( Ephesians 3:3 ), in the form of a Mystery (secret) hid in God since the world began, Ephesians 3:9 , Colossians 1:26 . This mystery is found only in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts and everything in those epistles is part of The Mystery. It is impossible that anything about it is found in the other 59 books, since it was composed and hid in God since before the OT ever started. Except for Christ, NOTHING in those 59 all-Israel books pertain to us today, in any way concerning our FUTURE. If you want to know anything about your possible future, you can find it ONLY in Paul's 7 after-Acts epistles.

The HUGE difference in Acts doctrine vs after-Acts doctrine, is exemplified in the 2, 100% different Callings.

In the 59 all-Israel books, the Highest Calling possible was the New Jerusalem, the city that comes down out of the created New Heavens and becomes a permanent (as far as we know) part of the New Earth, as it's new capitol. Israel are an earthly people and their original promises involve the earth, the land. In those 59 books, NO JEW is EVER SAID to have a hope of gong to Heaven.

In Paul's 7 post-Acts, all-Gentile books, we find that out hope is to be resurrected directly to the uncreated Heavenly Places, the abode Of God, Far above the created New starry Heavens. We will be seated with Christ at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (where Christ ascended to), Ephesians 2:6 (where we are resurrected to - same place that Christ ascended to).

The rub is, that, if you want to go to Heaven, it MUST be by faith. God first has to give you the eyes of understanding to SEE the hope of your calling, Ephesians 1:17-18 . After you SEE it, you must BELIEVE it,
Thank you. I really grow weary when I hear I'm going to be "here" when I thought I was going to heaven. Almost to the point of wondering if that's what I want. So, thank you, and our dear FATHER in heaven.:) Sweet JESUS amen
 

Ac28

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Paul taught the Kingdom of God, which is comprised of both earthly and heavenly aspects. He did not preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, but He did reference it when speaking to the Kingdom saints as in 2 Timothy 2:11 to 2:13
However, the earthly Kingdom only applies before the end of Acts, the Heavenly Kingdom only applies to us after Acts, and NOTHING during Acts applies to any of us today. Israel was set aside in Acts 28:28 and the present new Church where Christ is the Head started shortly after. EVERYTHING from Acts is gone. The Hope in ALL of Acts was the New Jerusalem, at best. The Hope after Acts is the Highest Heaven. This fact alone is proof you can't blend anything during Acts with anything after Acts. Things that are different are NEVER the same. That's why we have Philippians 1:10 and 2 Timothy 2:15, to eliminate all that Jewish-only stuff, which includes 100% of Acts, from our doctrine.

If the absurd notion of Israel being set aside or that the Gentile church started earlier than Ac 28:28, why was Paul still going to the Jews first, at the very end of Acts? What would have happened if those Jews in Acts of the Apostles 28:23-29 had accepted Christ? Paul would then have to say,

"I'm sorry brethren, but your belief in Jesus will do you no good. He was sent to the Gentiles, way back when I became converted on the Damascus Road. You cannot receive Him as King nor can you have a part in His Kingdom. That time is past. For some stupid reason, I am still preaching a dead Gospel to an Israel that doesn't exist. Don't ask me why. I'm just obeying orders. I apologize for lying to you. You could, of course, all become Gentiles."
 
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bbyrd009

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Thank you. I really grow weary when I hear I'm going to be "here" when I thought I was going to heaven.
you can keep thinking you are going to heaven after you have literally died if you like, doesn't mean it's Scriptural or Christianity though ok? It's the blind leading the blind
 

Jay Ross

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The Old Testament is very clear that God will turn His back on Israel for two ages, i.e. the third and the fourth, if they continued in their iniquities of idolatrous worship, i.e. the worshipping of idols. The first age of the existence of Israel began at the birth of Isaac and the third age of Israel began with the birth of Jesus.

Jesus came with the hope that if the Nation of Israel heard His Salvation message, that they would repent of their idolatrous worship and turn against unto the Lord, but to protect their idolatrous practices they rejected the Hope that Christ preached, and even though God had given them 490 years at the end of the second age of their existence to repent they chose not to, so the visitation of their iniquities was poured out upon the fathers children and the children's children.

The Temple became their idol and it still is, for many, both Jewish and Christian believers, believe that for Israel to connect with God once more that the Temple needs to be built a third time before this can happen and sadly are working towards this outcome, after Israel cause the temple to be destroyed because of their unrepentant hearts.

Jesus prophetically foretold the events that would herald the end of the fourth Age in which the iniquities of the fathers would be visited upon their children's children in Luke 14 when an attempt to build a temple to reach out to God would not be able to be completed because of the uproar within the nations of the earth and the heathen nations would form up at the end of the determined 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God to go up Against Jerusalem to put an end to the construction of the Temple and make Israel, God's chosen people look foolish. This parable is then followed by the parable which explains that Christ, then a King with Dominion over the peoples of the Earth, would come to fight Kings of the earth and their armies at Armageddon in judgement and that Israel will come to their senses and then seek the terms of Peace with this waring King within the shadow of Jerusalem itself.

Yes, God had already told Israel, that He had divorced the nation of Israel as His wife because of their continuing idolatrous behaviour.

Paul in Romans 11:25-26 also confirms that after the very end of the period of time set aside for the Heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God, that all of Israel will be saved. How is all of Israel saved? By their acknowledgement of, and their repentance of, their sins of continued idolatrous behaviour and their agreement to the covenantal terms found in God's renewal of the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations Covenant that they had previously rejected after agreeing to abide by its terms at Mt Sinai, (Jer 31:31ff) so that God's prophetic word that Israel will be a blessing to all of the people of the earth during the End Time period can be fulfilled.

At this time God has promised to gather all of Israel over the whole face of the earth and to plant them in fertile soil where He can feed them, nurture them, and teach them, about the Kingdom of God and what that means so that they can act as His Priests among all of the nations of the Earth were they live disbursed among the nations and subsequently Bless all the nations of the Earth.

During the End Times, some nations will get and understand God's requirements to be righteous and they will be like Sheep, while other nations will understand what is required to be righteous and hope that they do enough to be considered to be righteous but fail because they did not renew their hearts and actually take on the personhood of what it means to be righteous and they will be judged by God to be like Goats and sent out into the desert where they will be consumed by fire in the Lake of Fire.

Do we Gentiles have this same understanding of what it really means to be a disciple of Christ and to renew our minds and to put on the personhood that God intended us to become?

That question will be answered for us at the time of Judgement with the books are opened and we come forward to receive God's decision.

Shalom
 
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Acolyte

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you can keep thinking you are going to heaven after you have literally died if you like, doesn't mean it's Scriptural or Christianity though ok? It's the blind leading the blind
Heaven is where-ever our Father is, it won't be this earth, but a new earth.. even if it is just renewed.
Why did you follow me? You have much knowledge but seem so provoking/condescending in your replies. I came to hopefully learn from others that know so much more.
 

soul man

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Nice OP, many truths to expound on. Enjoyed reading through the comments, would mention no need to spiritualize the scriptures they can be read as there written.
 

bbyrd009

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Heaven is where-ever our Father is, it won't be this earth, but a new earth.. even if it is just renewed.
i'd have to ask for a rephrase here to get your point. Or i mean it will be this earth if this earth is "renewed," right?
Why did you follow me?
ah, to get a button for you on my page mostly, to make it easier to access what you write
You have much knowledge but seem so provoking/condescending in your replies.
well, you are not alone there ok, and all i can say is that i have worked hard to be less offensive, and how might you phrase the below to be less condescending, bc yes i have a blind spot there i guess, even if the truth--whatever it is--is not going to change. I do try to make it very clear when i am stating a belief, as in the "doesn't mean" below, which was maybe not the best qualification lol. ty. ps that is why i'm following you, i remember now, you put something very well, and as you have noted i am terrible
you can keep thinking you are going to heaven after you have literally died if you like, doesn't mean it's Scriptural or Christianity though ok? It's the blind leading the blind
 

bbyrd009

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fwiw i only meant to post some counter to this
Thank you. I really grow weary when I hear I'm going to be "here" when I thought I was going to heaven. Almost to the point of wondering if that's what I want. So, thank you, and our dear FATHER in heaven.:) Sweet JESUS amen
so that you will not end up deceived too, a la
"The rub is, that, if you want to go to Heaven, it MUST be by faith. God first has to give you the eyes of understanding to SEE the hope of your calling, Ephesians 1:17-18 . After you SEE it, you must BELIEVE it"
imo. Bc you are not ever going to any place called heaven imo, particularly not after you have literally died, or else maybe you can teach me more than just etiquette! :)

and with an apology to...whoever wrote that, if they actually did not mean to infer "...after you have died" into "if you want to go to Heaven..." which i'm already pretty sure they did
 

Acolyte

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i'd have to ask for a rephrase here to get your point. Or i mean it will be this earth if this earth is "renewed," right?
ah, to get a button for you on my page mostly, to make it easier to access what you write
well, you are not alone there ok, and all i can say is that i have worked hard to be less offensive, and how might you phrase the below to be less condescending, bc yes i have a blind spot there i guess, even if the truth--whatever it is--is not going to change. I do try to make it very clear when i am stating a belief, as in the "doesn't mean" below, which was maybe not the best qualification lol. ty. ps that is why i'm following you, i remember now, you put something very well, and as you have noted i am terrible
I never said you were terrible.
I am saying, as an example, did you learn more from a happy friendly teacher at school or from one that made you feel mocked and less worthy?
Blessings
 
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bbyrd009

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I never said you were terrible.
ha, i almost came back and added "i am not being facetious here" lol. But i see not doing that inadvertently gave you a choice, and i hope i choose as well as you did
I am saying, as an example, did you learn more from a happy friendly teacher at school or from one that mocked you and made you feel less worthy?
i know that seems like a simple explanation, and i agree with your principle there, certainly. But i would introduce some variables into your analogy that imo would alter the perception quite a bit, was i attempting to correct the teacher, and was it rudely or kindly, was i making deterministic statements about the future, or other things i couldn't possibly know for sure, but tbh imo the analogy is kind of broken anyway, it is a dominance/submission model, not an equality model...dang, how do i get there...um, wherein a 4 year old might be the best teacher?

answer #2 is unfortunately prolly the latter scenario, but that is also too simplistic imo, until we consider why and even whether i was really being mocked or made to feel less worthy; as these are perceptions, and subjective. Iow we might both agree that i'm doing it wrong, but we can also both agree that some or many ppl can feel mocked and made to feel less worthy with almost no provocation, too?

and i notice that i didn't get a...more loving example for my phrase, which i've totally forgotten now, hang on...
"you can keep thinking you are going to heaven after you have literally died if you like, doesn't mean it's Scriptural or Christianity though ok? It's the blind leading the blind."
so, other than i guess neglecting my usual "imo" there, how iyo might i have made this more acceptable, short of refraining entirely?
i tried to leave room there--as it doesn't mean that it isn't either, right--and i'd like to ask now if "It's quite likely the blind leading the blind" would have helped?

really what i'd like to consider in the equation is all of the determinism, that leads to the mocking and the self esteem thing imo, how might you address, um contest a deterministic statement made by someone who is possibly or likely deceived without offending them? In a forum i mean.

Also, how do you offend a believer anyway? Although i do acknowledge that offense can be intentionally given, sure, and i would love to avoid that, aren't i going to offend (you) simply by saying "you are not ever going to any place called heaven after you have died according to Scripture, and imo anyone teaching you that is deceived."
 

Acolyte

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ha, i almost came back and added "i am not being facetious here" lol. But i see not doing that inadvertently gave you a choice, and i hope i choose as well as you did
i know that seems like a simple explanation, and i agree with your principle there, certainly. But i would introduce some variables into your analogy that imo would alter the perception quite a bit, was i attempting to correct the teacher, and was it rudely or kindly, was i making deterministic statements about the future, or other things i couldn't possibly know for sure, but tbh imo the analogy is kind of broken anyway, it is a dominance/submission model, not an equality model...dang, how do i get there...um, wherein a 4 year old might be the best teacher?

answer #2 is unfortunately prolly the latter scenario, but that is also too simplistic imo, until we consider why and even whether i was really being mocked or made to feel less worthy; as these are perceptions, and subjective. Iow we might both agree that i'm doing it wrong, but we can also both agree that some or many ppl can feel mocked and made to feel less worthy with almost no provocation, too?

and i notice that i didn't get a...more loving example for my phrase, which i've totally forgotten now, hang on...
"you can keep thinking you are going to heaven after you have literally died if you like, doesn't mean it's Scriptural or Christianity though ok? It's the blind leading the blind."
so, other than i guess neglecting my usual "imo" there, how iyo might i have made this more acceptable, short of refraining entirely?
i tried to leave room there--as it doesn't mean that it isn't either, right--and i'd like to ask now if "It's quite likely the blind leading the blind" would have helped?

really what i'd like to consider in the equation is all of the determinism, that leads to the mocking and the self esteem thing imo, how might you address, um contest a deterministic statement made by someone who is possibly or likely deceived without offending them? In a forum i mean.

Also, how do you offend a believer anyway? Although i do acknowledge that offense can be intentionally given, sure, and i would love to avoid that, aren't i going to offend (you) simply by saying "you are not ever going to any place called heaven after you have died according to Scripture, and imo anyone teaching you that is deceived."
I agree with you on perception. And I understand something someone says in typing doesn't relate the spirit it is given in.
So.. Mat.5:5 (meek inherit earth)
Rev.21:7(he who overcomes inherits ALL things)
Much more than just earth...
 
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bbyrd009

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And I understand something someone says in typing doesn't relate the spirit it is given in.
well i guess it possibly/often can, and unfortunately i am left here with the truth or at least the perception that i deliberately offend ppl, and i find that i can't disagree
 

farouk

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Nice OP, many truths to expound on. Enjoyed reading through the comments, would mention no need to spiritualize the scriptures they can be read as there written.
I think that where a literal reading fits, it's likely to be preferable to an allegorical, or 'spiritualized' reading. Even though it's all of spiritual value, of course.