ADDING WORKS:

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H. Richard

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What seems to be obvious is that those that teach a child of God MUST have works to show their faith have hung the statement of James that “faith without works is dead” around the necks of those “IN CHRIST” who believe in Jesus‘ work on the cross.

To these we are just required to keep the law of good works and those works are defined by them with selected verses. Which is better, to be kind to others or to try and get them to see the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross? Baring fruit for God isn’t a person glorifying in their own works; but glorifying the work on the cross. We are to witness to faith in Jesus’ work and not our own.

Tell me, which is better, to be kind to others or to help lead them to eternal life? It seems to me that every time a person tries to reach out to God in faith the religious works crowd hangs the requirement of works around their neck.

I am completely aware that a child of God will be lead by the Holy Spirit to do what God wishes for them to do. But that is not what the works crowd wants. They want to determine the works others are to do. Doesn’t matter if those person’s are doing what God wants them to do.

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions. They will not see that placing their faith in works will not save them and as Paul writes they are under a curse. Why???? Because they trample under foot the “:completed” work of Jesus on the cross.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me, it seems that, most can tell you about their faith in keeping commandment and picking up their cross of their works but they will not tell about their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Many of the ones that testify that they have faith in Jesus’ work on the cross are even accused, by the works crowd, of not being saved by given them derogatory labels so they can accuse them of not having a true faith.

But to us who know that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is the only way to please God will never say we earn a place with God BECAUSE of our works. Now the works crowd will say that they are doing that too. If they are doing that too then why do they give statements like easy believes?

According to Paul, when a person adds works to grace they are under a curse. I, personally do not claim any works.. Does that mean I do not do any?? Off course not! It means I place no confidence in my works. If I have any God knows it, not me.

But that is okay, I let others talk about how they keep Jesus’ commandment. But when, and if, they look into their hearts they would know they are not. I think God’s judgment on them for giving a boast in their own works while neglecting to boast in Jesus’ work will not bring a good out come.

But hey, that is just a person’s remarks that have been told that what I believe in is easy believism. So faith in Jesus’ work on the cross is just easy believism. So get out there and do your works.
 

justbyfaith

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Which is better, to be kind to others or to try and get them to see the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross?

Tell me, which is better, to be kind to others or to help lead them to eternal life?
If you are unkind to others, they will never receive the message of the gospel, and thus eternal life, coming from you. Therefore it is important to be kind to others, see Philemon 1:6.

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace

Please show that again; I didn't see it: and I also hold to the position that all of scripture is inspired of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of the Lord may be perfect, throughly furnished unto every good work. So James is valid and to be accepted not only as authoritative but as applicable to the life of every believer.

But hey, that is just a person’s remarks that have been told that what I believe in is easy believism.

I think that Jesus' statements in the following scripture refute true easy believism:

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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Enoch111

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Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions.
James was definitely writing to those under grace -- born again Christians. You just don't want to acknowledge that so there would be no point wasting more time on this thread.
 

H. Richard

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If you are unkind to others, they will never receive the message of the gospel, and thus eternal life, coming from you. Therefore it is important to be kind to others, see Philemon 1:6.



Please show that again; I didn't see it: and I also hold to the position that all of scripture is inspired of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of the Lord may be perfect, throughly furnished unto every good work. So James is valid and to be accepted not only as authoritative but as applicable to the life of every believer.



I think that Jesus' statements in the following scripture refute true easy believism:

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I can't understand why people can't believe what James wrote in James 1:1.
 
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H. Richard

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James was definitely writing to those under grace -- born again Christians. You just don't want to acknowledge that so there would be no point wasting more time on this thread.

He said who he was writing to but you just don't believe it. see James 1:1
 
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justbyfaith

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He said who he was writing to but you just don't believe it. see James 1:1
In Philippians 1:1, it says that Paul was writing specifically to the saints who were at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.

We are not specifically in that people group.

Does that mean that such verses as Philippians 1:6 do not apply to us? I know that that verse has encouraged me in times past even when I have sung it in church.

In the same way, things that James wrote to the twelve tribes can indeed and do apply to us; although the original audience was indeed the twelve tribes, the truth of the matter is that all scripture is inspired of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of the Lord may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

@H. Richard, Is there something in James that you are specifically motivated to reject?
 
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ScottA

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In Philippians 1:1, it says that Paul was writing specifically to the saints who were at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.

We are not specifically in that people group.

Does that mean that such verses as Philippians 1:6 do not apply to us? I know that that verse has encouraged me in times past even when I have sung it in church.

In the same way, things that James wrote to the twelve tribes can indeed and do apply to us; although the original audience was indeed the twelve tribes, the truth of the matter is that all scripture is inspired of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of the Lord may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Is there something in James that you are specifically motivated to reject?
Good question...

Up to you mentioning it, I was under the impression H. was saying just the opposite: that James was not meaning that works are required for salvation (just evidence of salvation), and that speaking to the twelve tribes did indeed include all who call Christ Lord.

I will be interested in his answer. Thanks!
 

quietthinker

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What seems to be obvious is that those that teach a child of God MUST have works to show their faith have hung the statement of James that “faith without works is dead” around the necks of those “IN CHRIST” who believe in Jesus‘ work on the cross.

To these we are just required to keep the law of good works and those works are defined by them with selected verses. Which is better, to be kind to others or to try and get them to see the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross? Baring fruit for God isn’t a person glorifying in their own works; but glorifying the work on the cross. We are to witness to faith in Jesus’ work and not our own.

Tell me, which is better, to be kind to others or to help lead them to eternal life? It seems to me that every time a person tries to reach out to God in faith the religious works crowd hangs the requirement of works around their neck.

I am completely aware that a child of God will be lead by the Holy Spirit to do what God wishes for them to do. But that is not what the works crowd wants. They want to determine the works others are to do. Doesn’t matter if those person’s are doing what God wants them to do.

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions. They will not see that placing their faith in works will not save them and as Paul writes they are under a curse. Why???? Because they trample under foot the “:completed” work of Jesus on the cross.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me, it seems that, most can tell you about their faith in keeping commandment and picking up their cross of their works but they will not tell about their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Many of the ones that testify that they have faith in Jesus’ work on the cross are even accused, by the works crowd, of not being saved by given them derogatory labels so they can accuse them of not having a true faith.

But to us who know that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is the only way to please God will never say we earn a place with God BECAUSE of our works. Now the works crowd will say that they are doing that too. If they are doing that too then why do they give statements like easy believes?

According to Paul, when a person adds works to grace they are under a curse. I, personally do not claim any works.. Does that mean I do not do any?? Off course not! It means I place no confidence in my works. If I have any God knows it, not me.

But that is okay, I let others talk about how they keep Jesus’ commandment. But when, and if, they look into their hearts they would know they are not. I think God’s judgment on them for giving a boast in their own works while neglecting to boast in Jesus’ work will not bring a good out come.

But hey, that is just a person’s remarks that have been told that what I believe in is easy believism. So faith in Jesus’ work on the cross is just easy believism. So get out there and do your works.
Without a love for righteousness in ones heart the matter of faith and works will remain an insurmountable mystery. No amount of words, texts, explanations or intelligence will clarify anything.
 
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H. Richard

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Some will find any excuse to get the writings of James to apply to the those under grace. They do not say how they get around James 1:1. They just rationalize all around it.
 

Enoch111

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Some will find any excuse to get the writings of James to apply to the those under grace. They do not say how they get around James 1:1. They just rationalize all around it.
One does not have to "get around" James 1:1. Please note what is included in that verse: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ... Let's stop right there.

James called Jesus of Nazareth "the Lord Jesus Christ". And what is salvation by grace through faith according to Paul?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31).

So James believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and was saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Then he wrote to those who were born again and saved by grace through faith.


Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (Jas 1:17,18)

What is this good and perfect gift from above in this context? The gift of the Holy Spirit. And what is the result of receiving the Spirit? The New Birth -- being born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God. and that is exactly what James is saying -- Of his own will begat he us with the Word of Truth. To "beget" is to bring to birth. And "the Word of Truth" is the Gospel. The Gospel is the seed of the New Birth according to 1 Peter 1:23-25.

Which means that your are TOTALLY AND SERIOUSLY IN ERROR. Now you have to make a decision. (1) Admit publicly that you are grossly mistaken about the epistle of James. Or (2) persist in your error and double down in your false doctrines. Chances are you will choose option (2).
 

Hidden In Him

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Some will find any excuse to get the writings of James to apply to the those under grace. They do not say how they get around James 1:1. They just rationalize all around it.

Ok, I guess I'll bite as well. H. Richard, yes James was writing to Jews, but Jewish Christians. This is plain from his command that they "not hold to the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, by showing respect of persons."

If you believe this faith they held to in Jesus Christ was by works, then what exactly did they believe He had done for them?
 

Nomad

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What seems to be obvious is that those that teach a child of God MUST have works to show their faith have hung the statement of James that “faith without works is dead” around the necks of those “IN CHRIST” who believe in Jesus‘ work on the cross.

Did Paul also "hang works around the necks of those in Christ?" He's saying the same thing James is saying. While we are not saved by works, works are the fruit of faith. Paul is clear that they cannot be separated. If you have received faith, you were also created in Christ Jesus for good works. It's a package deal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 

H. Richard

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So some just talk (write) all around the fact that the Holy Spirit had James write his message to the Jews only. That is twisting the scriptures to say what they want it to say.

It is obvious, at least to me, that the BELIEVING Jews were following Paul around (Acts 15) trying to get those under grace to go under the Law of Moses. If some just can't get their head around that then they should consider that they may be blinded by Satan. Some want to say that the believing Jews were saved under the gospel of grace but I can't find any scriptures to support that.

When will people realize that the covenant people of God only had to believe that Jesus was their Messiah and King. That is what the 4 gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts is all about, getting them to accept Him.

Since the nation of Israel never accepted Him God set them aside and has gone to the whole world with a gospel of grace where HE has paid for ALL the sins of the world. But since many will not believe Him then they will not be saved and will be judged for their un-belief.
 

H. Richard

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Did Paul also "hang works around the necks of those in Christ?" He's saying the same thing James is saying. While we are not saved by works, works are the fruit of faith. Paul is clear that they cannot be separated. If you have received faith, you were also created in Christ Jesus for good works. It's a package deal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Are you walking in His works or your own?
 

H. Richard

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One does not have to "get around" James 1:1. Please note what is included in that verse: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ... Let's stop right there.

James called Jesus of Nazareth "the Lord Jesus Christ". And what is salvation by grace through faith according to Paul?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31).

So James believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and was saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Then he wrote to those who were born again and saved by grace through faith.


Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (Jas 1:17,18)

What is this good and perfect gift from above in this context? The gift of the Holy Spirit. And what is the result of receiving the Spirit? The New Birth -- being born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God. and that is exactly what James is saying -- Of his own will begat he us with the Word of Truth. To "beget" is to bring to birth. And "the Word of Truth" is the Gospel. The Gospel is the seed of the New Birth according to 1 Peter 1:23-25.

Which means that your are TOTALLY AND SERIOUSLY IN ERROR. Now you have to make a decision. (1) Admit publicly that you are grossly mistaken about the epistle of James. Or (2) persist in your error and double down in your false doctrines. Chances are you will choose option (2).

Why do you say this about what I believe. Perhaps you should consider that it is you that are in serious error. I have not made any accusations about what you, personally, believe. As a matter of fact normally I do not respond to your writings. Why do you do it to me? I know why. Satan has always had the religious persecute the children of God.

Luke 6:22-23
22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man's sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
NKJV

The book of James was written to the believing Jews (they only had to believe Jesus was their Messiah and king) who were under the Law of Moses at that time.

If it pleases you then go ahead with your idea that you are the greatest and your Theology is the only one that is correct. It does not phase me. I know in whom I have placed my faith, trust, confidence and hope in and it certainly isn't in your ideas about the book of James.
 

Hidden In Him

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Ask them.

Ok, LoL.

You know, when you present a premise like this, you ought to be able to offer a reasonable defense of it. I'm guessing everyone on this forum could give me an answer for the question I asked. So give it a shot yourself. What did they believe the purpose was for why their Messiah and King allowed Himself to be crucified?
 

H. Richard

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Ok, LoL.

You know, when you present a premise like this, you ought to be able to offer a reasonable defense of it. I'm guessing everyone on this forum could give me an answer for the question I asked. So give it a shot yourself. What did they believe the purpose was for why their Messiah and King allowed Himself to be crucified?

First of all, who is the "they" you are indicating?

Why did Jesus go to the cross? Because God loves people (His creation) and wishes to save them by paying the price for their sins. According to Paul God had that in mind from the fall of man in the garden but it was hidden in God. It is written that only the shedding of blood can erase the sins of man and that blood had to be perfect (sinless). Only God is sinless.

This is my reply, take it or leave it there will be no more.
 

Hidden In Him

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This is my reply, take it or leave it there will be no more.

You see, this should be an indication that there may be a flaw in your theology. Again, you ought to be able to give a defense. It's not as if I'm being ugly. I'm simply asking logical questions that need to be answered for your position to gain any credibility.
Why did Jesus go to the cross? Because God loves people (His creation) and wishes to save them by paying the price for their sins.

I didn't ask why He went to the cross. My specific question was:
What did they believe the purpose was for why their Messiah and King allowed Himself to be crucified?

So are you saying this is what they believed the purpose was for why He allowed Himself to be crucified? Yes or no?