ADDING WORKS:

[H. Richard]

What seems to be obvious is that those that teach a child of God MUST have works to show their faith have hung the statement of James that “faith without works is dead” around the necks of those “IN CHRIST” who believe in Jesus‘ work on the cross.

To these we are just required to keep the law of good works and those works are defined by them with selected verses. Which is better, to be kind to others or to try and get them to see the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross? Baring fruit for God isn’t a person glorifying in their own works; but glorifying the work on the cross. We are to witness to faith in Jesus’ work and not our own.

Tell me, which is better, to be kind to others or to help lead them to eternal life? It seems to me that every time a person tries to reach out to God in faith the religious works crowd hangs the requirement of works around their neck.

I am completely aware that a child of God will be lead by the Holy Spirit to do what God wishes for them to do. But that is not what the works crowd wants. They want to determine the works others are to do. Doesn’t matter if those person’s are doing what God wants them to do.

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions. They will not see that placing their faith in works will not save them and as Paul writes they are under a curse. Why???? Because they trample under foot the “:completed” work of Jesus on the cross.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me, it seems that, most can tell you about their faith in keeping commandment and picking up their cross of their works but they will not tell about their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Many of the ones that testify that they have faith in Jesus’ work on the cross are even accused, by the works crowd, of not being saved by given them derogatory labels so they can accuse them of not having a true faith.

But to us who know that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is the only way to please God will never say we earn a place with God BECAUSE of our works. Now the works crowd will say that they are doing that too. If they are doing that too then why do they give statements like easy believes?

According to Paul, when a person adds works to grace they are under a curse. I, personally do not claim any works.. Does that mean I do not do any?? Off course not! It means I place no confidence in my works. If I have any God knows it, not me.

But that is okay, I let others talk about how they keep Jesus’ commandment. But when, and if, they look into their hearts they would know they are not. I think God’s judgment on them for giving a boast in their own works while neglecting to boast in Jesus’ work will not bring a good out come.

But hey, that is just a person’s remarks that have been told that what I believe in is easy believism. So faith in Jesus’ work on the cross is just easy believism. So get out there and do your works.

 

[justbyfaith]

Which is better, to be kind to others or to try and get them to see the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross?

Tell me, which is better, to be kind to others or to help lead them to eternal life?

See Philemon 1:6. The sharing of your faith will become effectual through the acknowledging of every good thing that is in you in Christ Jesus; and therefore how will they be led to eternal life unless you are kind to them? The way you live empowers what you say so that it will be more readily received. Just a thought.

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace

The Jewish tribes who were scattered abroad were indeed saved by grace.

Act 15:7, And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8, And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9, And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10, Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11, But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

To me, it seems that, most can tell you about their faith in keeping commandment and picking up their cross of their works but they will not tell about their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Many of the ones that testify that they have faith in Jesus’ work on the cross are even accused, by the works crowd, of not being saved by given them derogatory labels so they can accuse them of not having a true faith.

If anyone is truly saved by what Jesus did for them on the Cross, they would be truly thankful. And having been forgiven much, they will love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

According to Paul, when a person adds works to grace they are under a curse.

According to Paul, grace and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation/election (Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).

However, the grace of God caused Paul himself to labour more than anyone else (1 Corinthians 15:10). I conclude that the grace of God in a person's life will produce labour/works; while the labour/works themselves do not save in the slightest.

I, personally do not claim any works.. Does that mean I do not do any?? Off course not! It means I place no confidence in my works.

That is very excellent. Don't put your confidence in your works to save you; but look at your good works as the evidence of whether you are saved by grace through faith (see 2 Corinthians 13:5).

If I have any God knows it, not me.

If you have works, you ought to be the one who knows it also. Such things are not invisible:

1Ti 5:24, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Ti 5:25, Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Peter commented that the unstable distort Pauls harder teaching to there loss. He didn't have James in mind.

All James is saying is you have Faith, great. Now show it to me.
I too have faith, you can see because of the good works I do.

 

[H. Richard]

Peter commented that the unstable distort Pauls harder teaching to there loss. He didn't have James in mind.

All James is saying is you have Faith, great. Now show it to me.
I too have faith, you can see because of the good works I do.

Even atheist and those in a false religion do some good works. Using James and your idea they are saved too, right?

Religious people always want their works to be seen by others so that they can boast about them.

 

[H. Richard]

Peter commented that the unstable distort Pauls harder teaching to there loss. He didn't have James in mind.

All James is saying is you have Faith, great. Now show it to me.
I too have faith, you can see because of the good works I do.

Matt 6:2-6
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
The Model Prayer (Luke 11:2-4) 5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
NKJV

 

[Enoch111]

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions.

You have not shown anything. You have INCORRECTLY ASSUMED that James was not writing to those under grace. And therefore your argument falls flat. Good works encompass a broad range of actions which are to be taken by Christians, including the propagation of the Gospel.

 

[H. Richard]

You have not shown anything. You have INCORRECTLY ASSUMED that James was not writing to those under grace. And therefore your argument falls flat. Good works encompass a broad range of actions which are to be taken by Christians, including the propagation of the Gospel.

Obviously you can't seem to read James 1:1 where James says who he is writing to.

 

[The wind]

Faith without doing the Commandments of Christ is dead: and so not loving your brother.

 

[justbyfaith]

Religious people always want their works to be seen by others so that they can boast about them.

Then there are those who do good works and attempt to hide them from people so that they won't get the credit in this life.

The reality is that these cannot be hidden:

1Ti 5:24, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Ti 5:25, Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Knowing this, I don't try to hide my good works from people any more when I do them; for I know that they will be seen by someone.

And the fact that they cannot be hidden ought not to deter us from doing them.

Mat 5:14, Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15, Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Mat 5:16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Even atheist and those in a false religion do some good works. Using James and your idea they are saved too, right?

Religious people always want their works to be seen by others so that they can boast about them.

Only if there works show there faith in Jesus.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Matt 6:2-6
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
The Model Prayer (Luke 11:2-4) 5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
NKJV

And this is a situation where people are bragging about there 'faith', that they don't need to prove it.
James as an apostle is using his authority to show how shallow there faith is. He is practically showing what Jesus said,' If you love me you will Obey My Commands.' ie the 10C.

 

[bbyrd009]

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crow

Boy HR, you just stay off the res, huh? Unconfessed sin sure does weird things to people’s minds I guess.

Are you still advocating “don’t pick up your cross” by the way? Have a nice day buddy, and best of luck to you

 

[H. Richard]

Only if there works show there faith in Jesus.

And how can a person tell if they have faith in Jesus?

 

[H. Richard]

And this is a situation where people are bragging about there 'faith', that they don't need to prove it.
James as an apostle is using his authority to show how shallow there faith is. He is practically showing what Jesus said,' If you love me you will Obey My Commands.' ie the 10C.

Just like a religious person who says we are to obey His commands and then leave it up to others to come up with what those command are.

Under the Law of Moses given to Israel those commands were to keep the Law of Moses. But under grace His command, given by Paul is to place faith in, trust in, confidence in the work of God on the cross.

But the religious leave it to be vague and then they can say works of the flesh.

 

[H. Richard]

And this is a situation where people are bragging about there 'faith', that they don't need to prove it.
James as an apostle is using his authority to show how shallow there faith is. He is practically showing what Jesus said,' If you love me you will Obey My Commands.' ie the 10C.

The book of James was not written by James the apostle and one of the 12. It was written by James, the brother of Jesus.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

They want to determine the works others are to do. Doesn’t matter if those person’s are doing what God wants them to do.

James tells us they type of works he is talking about...."Was not Abraham our father justified by works," What kind of works? "...when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21.

The type of works James is talking about is obedience to the will of God. Faith by itself is void of obedience to the will of God therefore it is dead. Leviticus 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" and in similar fashion the life of faith is in the obedient works. Just as flesh without blood would be dead so is faith without works dead. Therefore a saving faith includes obedience for disobedience is faithlessness and never saved anyone.

 

[H. Richard]

James tells us they type of works he is talking about...."Was not Abraham our father justified by works," What kind of works? "...when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21.

The type of works James is talking about is obedience to the will of God. Faith by itself is void of obedience to the will of God therefore it is dead. Leviticus 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" and in similar fashion the life of faith is in the obedient works. Just as flesh without blood would be dead so is faith without works dead. Therefore a saving faith includes obedience for disobedience is faithlessness and never saved anyone.

You just can't understand that the book of James was not written for those who are not under the Law of Moses. He wrote his book to the JEWS only. He said it in James 1:1 but the religious just ignore what the Holy Spirit had James say in James 1:1.

By the way, the scriptures in Genesis 22 does not say Abraham was justified by His offering up Isaac. In Genesis 15 it says Abraham was accounted as righteous because he believed God. That happened before Issac was born.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6 (NKJ)
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

But under grace His command, given by Paul is to place faith in, trust in, confidence in the work of God on the cross.

Those who put their faith in Jesus' blood are forgiven of much; and therefore will love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

This love is the fulfilling of everything God requires. God reduces the commandments we are to follow to a singular commandment in two parts:

1Jo 3:23, And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

This is all that the Lord requires.

Of course, the moral tenets of the law do show forth the specifics of God's love; and therefore if you violate any of them you are violating love: thus the law of the LORD gives us the knowledge of sin and sin is also the transgression of the law (Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4).

The following verses are also true:

1Jo 5:3, For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Faith by itself is void of obedience to the will of God therefore it is dead.

Living faith alone is not dead; since it is normally accompanied by works. In a situation where a person comes to a living faith in Jesus Christ but never has the opportunity to do any good works, that living faith will save them apart from works. And since this is across the board, a living faith will always save apart from works. On the other side of the coin, a living faith normally produces works. We must rightly divide the word of truth.

Therefore a saving faith includes obedience for disobedience is faithlessness and never saved anyone.

You are getting closer to the truth. However, works/obedience is not a part of saving faith but a saving faith will normally be accompanied by obedience.

You just can't understand that the book of James was not written for those who are not under the Law of Moses.

The twelve tribes who are scattered abroad are in the same situation as Gentiles who are saved under grace. Romans 6:14 applies to Jews as well as Gentiles. Jews are not saved differently from Gentiles. Both people groups can only be saved by grace through faith.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not!

Abraham's work of being willing to offer Isaac on the altar demonstrated his faith in God that He was even able to raise him from the dead; indicating that he believed that Isaac was indeed the promised seed by whom God would multiply Abraham's descendants. Abraham was willing to offer Isaac because he believed that God would raise him. It demonstrated the faith in God that he had in Genesis 15:6. Before those who only know the truth by what we see (man, 1 Samuel 16:7), Abraham was justified by this work of being willing to offer Isaac. Before God, Abraham was justified by his faith alone. See Romans 4:2.

James 2:20-21 is a rhetorical question that, within James' line of reasoning, the answer that is expected is yes: Abraham was indeed justified by works when he was willing to offer Isaac on the altar.

For that is what he is arguing for.

Because in context of the situation that James was writing concerning, there were believers who understood Paul's concepts so well that they were resting on their laurels. They believed that they would still be saved even if they hid their talent in the sand.

What they didn't realize is that the following is even the teaching of Paul:

We receive the love of God through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5); and the Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14). This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 3:14, Romans 8:4) and the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also, according to John, not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

Therefore faith produces the love of the Lord; and the love of the Lord produces good works. Love is demonstrated by good works.

The fruit of the Spirit is love; and it is written,

Tit 3:14, And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

And this in the same context as Titus 3:4-7.

We are bot saved by works of righteousness which we have done; however, works of righteousness is the necessary fruit of being saved. Not that the fruit is necessary for salvation; but that salvation must necessarily bring forth good fruit or else it isn't real salvation.

 

[Windmillcharge]

And how can a person tell if they have faith in Jesus?

By there works prompted by faith, that were prepared by God for them to do.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Just like a religious person who says we are to obey His commands and then leave it up to others to come up with what those command are.

Under the Law of Moses given to Israel those commands were to keep the Law of Moses. But under grace His command, given by Paul is to place faith in, trust in, confidence in the work of God on the cross.

But the religious leave it to be vague and then they can say works of the flesh.

Please re read my reply.
Any Christian who reads the bible will know that Jesus endorsed the 10C and made mental obedience key as well as physical obedience.