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Featured Against Gnosticism

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Episkopos, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    It is unfortunate that we need a thread to expose another man made "ism". But people can't help themselves I suppose. So the purpose of this thread is to expose the error and heresy of Gnosticism...which at least some on this board have fallen into.

    Now there are various degrees of Gnosticsm...and it leads different people to different conclusions. But the essence is this. It is a denial that we are NOT our bodies nor our spirits...but a living soul caught somewhere between the two.

    Gnosticism denies the responsibility of actually BEING holy and uses as a excuse that the body is evil of itself. So then this denies that Jesus was a man like us....that somehow His flesh was different to ours.

    The truth is that the flesh is WEAK...not evil.

    The truth is that we are a living soul...not a spirit.

    We HAVE a body and we HAVE a spirit...but we ARE a soul.
     
  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Our spirits are not us. Our spirit is just a container that returns to the Lord after we leave this life.

    We are a living soul...caught in some dark place...which is the true state of our beings outside of God's presence.

    If we didn't have our natural senses...where would we be? Could we still be alive? Yes! But WHERE would we be?

    Outer darkness. Or at least what would seem as outer darkness. We could still think. We could still speak although we would be deaf to hear anything.

    So then we have to see that we are not a spirit...we are something more fearful than that. We are WEAK...and in need of faculties to connect us with reality and others.

    The Body we have been loaned has physical faculties. Are these faculties evil? No! But they are LIMITED to this physical world.

    So then we are a weak soul with limited faculties. (in our natural state)

    Now sin takes place as the soul seeks to assert itself based on a very limited perception.
     
  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Gnosticism seeks to dissociate the works of the body from the person. As in...I.m saved...but my body continues to do evil.

    Where do people who are so deceived get this from?

    Of course, a misreading of Paul. Note in Romans 7


    Paul says...

    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Sound schizoid enough?

    Or this...

    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    A call to dissociative behaviour?

    But here is the truth...

    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


    It's not the weak flesh that's the problem...but a LAW that causes men to sin. Gnostics have no understanding of this. They just blame their bodies for being evil. They throw the baby out with the bath water.
     
  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    One of the verses that modern Gnostics base their error on is this verse.

    Romans 8:3b “(…) God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (…)”
    seems to be one of the favourite proof texts for “modern-day gnostics”.

    I have posted here a fair rebuttal of the notion that the flesh itself is sinful.

    “He was suspended on a cross, as if he had been a malefactor. He was numbered with malefactors; he was crucified between them; he was given up by God and man to death as if he had himself been such a malefactor. In other words, he was put to death in the same manner as he would have been if he had been personally guilty of the violation of the law. Had he been a thief or murderer, had he committed the grossest and blackest crimes, this would have been the punishment to which he would have been subjected. He consented to die in the same manner as the vilest malefactor, in order that by his substituted sorrows he might save those who were personally guilty. The idea which makes the atonement so wonderful–the idea which makes it an atonement at all–is, that innocence was treated as if it were guilt; that the most pure and holy and benevolent being on earth was treated AS IF he had been the most vile and ill deserving.”


    – Albert Barnes, The Atonement (1860), Chapter 8: Confirmation of These Views of the Nature of the Atonement from the Bible, p. 296.

    Proof which shows the difference between how true Christians saw the flesh and how gnostics saw the flesh;
     
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  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    Sorry, you have some problems in what you said.

    Flesh is purely physical. The spirit is purely nonphysical and the soul is the totality of our being, flesh plus spirit.

    God and angels are spirits.

    Spirits are eternal.


    Soul


    The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number:
    5590 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word
    Word Origin
    yuchv from (5594)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Psuche 9:608,1342
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    psoo-khay' Noun Feminine
    Definition
    1. breath
      1. the breath of life
        1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a
      2. of animals 1a
    2. of men
      1. life
      2. that in which there is life
        1. a living being, a living soul
    3. the soul
      1. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
      2. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
      3. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
    Spirit
    The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number:
    4151 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word
    Word Origin
    pneu'ma from (4154)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Pneuma 6:332,876
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    pnyoo'-mah Noun Neuter
    Definition
    1. the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
      1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
      2. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
      3. never referred to as a depersonalised force
    2. the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
      1. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
      2. the soul
    3. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
      1. a life giving spirit
      2. a human soul that has left the body
      3. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
        1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
        2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
    4. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
      1. the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
    5. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
      1. of the wind, hence the wind itself
      2. breath of nostrils or mouth
     
  6. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    What you are missing is the power of the flesh which is according to a spiritual law. The law of sin and death. You are judging by your eyes and carnal faculties. The problem with mankind is a spiritual one.


    Leave the biology behind and read deeper into the word.
     
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  7. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    You do make sense. Don’t have time now to read all you have posted here but hopefully will later...

    Ephesians 2:15-16
    [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
     
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  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Gnosticism takes two extremes. Since the body is evil (in their minds)...some will let the body do as it wants...thinking it has no effect on the soul. As in...see! I can sin all day long but I'm not responsible for it...it's just my body doing it. Or...the devil made my body do this. I'm not responsible for my own actions.

    Others treated their bodies as if it were evil itself... by whipping the body, denying food, sleep.

    Of course most modern Gnostics just tolerate the sins of the body....while giving an effort to stop the excess. So then by their own power they try to minimize the sins in the body...but all the while thinking they will not be judged for their actions in the body.

    All of this having no bearing on any kind of spiritual advancement.
     
  9. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 6:18 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

    How can we sin against our own body if it is the body that is sinning and we are not responsible for it?
     
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  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    I'm missing nothing. All I said is purely Biblical.

    You cannot see one's spirit. But you can understand that soul is the totality of spirit, mind and body, as the bible says.

    God and angels are spirit beings. Never a mentioned of soul concerning them.

    Yes mankind's problem is a spiritual one. But the flash is part of that formula.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  11. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Purely your interpretation. If you had more experience with the opinions of men concerning how the bible can be interpreted...you would actually post other verses from the bible to prove your point.

    A human being is the totality of these things. But a soul is the mind, the heart, and the will of a man. A soul is not a body or a spirit.

    Now you are starting to get it.

    The POWER of the flesh....yes. The carnal nature.
     
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  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    I've gotten it for over 50 years.

    But I do not think you understand spirit, flesh, mind and their relationship. Together they are soul.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  13. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Body-----soul.......spirit.

    The soul is in the middle....blind. Trapped as it were. We input things through the body...or through the spirit. Through the natural faculties or the spiritual faculties.

    The soul can use the faculties of the body...or turn to the spirit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  14. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Okay confused this evening. The Law? Isn’t that what the Law does, reveal sin? Not causes men to sin, but reveals sin. Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    Hebrews 7:28
    [28] For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. ...?

    Also, unsure about what is a soul? Leviticus 26:11-12 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. [12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I should have been clearer... :)

    I am speaking of the power of sin and death...the spiritual law that gives power to the carnal man.

    The soul is who we are. The mind, the heart, the will, the emotions....etc. The part of us that decides things. We can go 3 different ways.
    1. We can live to satisfy bodily cravings.
    2. We can live to please our own desires.
    3. We can follow the Spirit.
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Is there such a thing as "saving knowledge?"

    Jesus did say...you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

    I think what makes the difference in understanding what knowledge, we must look at the difference between Hebrew thinking and Greek thinking.

    In the Hebrew when a man "knows" his wife...this is far from an intellectual knowing. It is experiential.

    Everything in Hebrew thinking is experiential. Not so in Greek thinking.

    When we try explaining a Hebrew statement with Greek conceptual thinking...we get way off course. This can explain some of the Gnostic tendencies down through the years.

    So then the biblical "knowing" the truth...is not a mental exercise. It is an experience of the truth. It is a walking in the truth.

    So then when we walk in the truth...we are avoiding all the things that bring us into bondage.
     
  17. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    We don’t want to give power to the carnal man. Revelation 17:13
    [13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    Romans 8:6
    [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    Romans 7:8-13
    [8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me . [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    1 Corinthians 15:56
    [56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    Romans 5:20-21
    [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


    But wait...
    Romans 8:11-13
    [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    Again, “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

    Can you explain the contradictions in this post? In the verses? Can you help make it clear?
     
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  18. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    So then there are 2 powers fighting each other in the world.

    Since the sin of Adam there is a connection between our weakness and his rebellion. The weakness of the flesh is given strength through "self-assertion".

    But how can weakness draw on itself? It needs an outside power to strengthen it.

    This is the law of sin and death. It is a spiritual law that brings chaos into God's creation. It causes men to see themselves as gods. When men encourage each other in this...they become stronger still. They create an evil environment that denies God.

    So it is with the ten kings who give encouragement to the beast.

    But there is another outside power at work.

    There is a new law which men can draw upon...and encourage one another in. This is the law that overcomes wickedness and is connected to God. This is the law of the Spirit of a new life in Jesus. A new KIND of life. An eternal life.
     
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  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    Episkopos keeps speaking of the soul as equal to or superior to the spirit. As eternal.

    That completely misrepresents what the bible says, as I pointed out in the definitions I posted above.

    By his thinking animals are eternal. Which is not the case.

    Do Animals Have Souls?


    The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
    Strong's Number:
    05315 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word
    Word Origin
    Xpn from (05314)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Nephesh TWOT - 1395a
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    neh'-fesh Noun Feminine
    Definition
    1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
      1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
      2. living being
      3. living being (with life in the blood)
      4. the man himself, self, person or individual
      5. seat of the appetites
      6. seat of emotions and passions
      7. activity of mind
        1. dubious
      8. activity of the will
        1. dubious
      9. activity of the character
        1. dubious
     
  20. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This is a misrepresentation of what I said. We are not a spirit...nor are we a body. We are a soul that has a body and a spirit.

    On judgment day our souls (us) will be judged....whether they are worthy of continuing life....and the quality of that life.
     
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