Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

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covenantee

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What’s your take on these verses. Seems to me that the “better thing” they were looking for was the kingdom of Heaven on earth that we as believers enjoy today.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Ultimately they desired the ultimate destination.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
 

IndianaRob

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Ultimately they desired the ultimate destination.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Do you agree that the promise that they couldn’t receive was something that we can receive?

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 

Rich R

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Are you saying that Israel's earth is as good as the Church's heaven?
1 Thes 4:17,

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.​

Wherever Jesus will be from the point on we'll be with him. The last 3 chapters of Revelation say Jesus will come down to the earth. There is nothing about him going back to heaven. So if we will be with Jesus, and Jesus will be on the earth...draw your own conclusions.
If so, then you should waste no time exhuming Abraham et al and reprimanding them severely for seeking a better heavenly country, when the earthly one they had was just as good. :laughing:
Have I not addressed what "heavenly" means in Hebrews. You know, the part of it being in the genitive case and what the genitive case signified.
You're right, you don't get the point of the parable.

Just leave it for those who do.
Fair enough.
 
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Douggg

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LOL. I'm on topic. You used your flawed man-made rule to try to prove that the thousand years must be literal because it has a beginning and an ending. So, I'm putting that rule to a test. And you're trying to avoid admitting that your man-made rule is flawed and should be discarded.

So, will you admit that your rule is flawed and should be discarded? If not, then let's put it to the test, shall we? I already talked about how it doesn't work with Daniel's 70 weeks, which most of us interpret as 490 years instead of 490 days.

How do you interpret this verse:

Revelation 17:12 Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Can we use your man-made rule to conclude that the reference to "one hour" in this verse is a literal hour, as in 60 minutes? Or is your man-made rule flawed and we should discard it?


Here you are making that claim again. So, don't tell me I'm getting side tracked when I'm addressing your man-made rule that you use to determine that the thousand years is literal. You need to stop making claims like this without backing them up. If that man-made rule was legitimate, we should be able to apply it to any verse that refers to a time period, right? Well, can we? Can we apply it to Revelation 17:12 or not?
There you go again, getting side tracked. The subject is the 1000 years in Revelation 20.

The one thousand years in Revelation 20 is literal because the thousand years have a beginning and an ending.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

When a judge in a criminal court system sentences a convicted felon to ten years in prison - are those ten years literal or figurative/metaphoric?

Deal with "when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." Answer my question. Don't divert to some other time period in the bible.
 

TribulationSigns

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The one thousand years in Revelation 20 is literal

Nope!
because the thousand years have a beginning and an ending.

Yes, the exact starting and ending point of the period mentioned is known only to God. We are told by God's Word that it began with Satan being bound at the Cross, and it will end when Satan is released "AFTER" the completion of the church building. Since we do NOT KNOW WHEN the last Elect God plan to seal has been sealed, so the "thousand years" only symbolically represents this time period needed for the establishment of the church and the completion of the testimony of the Two Witnesses. We can only "know" assume by looking at the SIGNS of Christ's coming and know that the thousand years may have ended with short season to go to the Second Coming. Just like the fig tree and all other trees as an example that Christ used to explain in Matthew 24, when we see all things coming to pass, we will know it's close at hand. The 1,000 years, 3-1/2 years, 1,260 days, 1,335 days, etc. in the Book of Revelation are NOT something for us to schedule on your calendar. We only know by the SIGNS, not date-settings.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

First, you need to know HOW and WHY Satan gets loosed from the Bottomless Pit. Go check with Revelation 9.

Rev 9:1-2
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Who is this FALL star? Why was the key of the bottomless pit given to this star?

When a judge in a criminal court system sentences a convicted felon to ten years in prison - are those ten years literal or figurative/metaphoric?

In this carnal world, yes. But according to God's Word. No! Don't try to use the world's system to interpret God's Word.

Deal with "when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." Answer my question. Don't divert to some other time period in the bible.

We have given you the answers and explanation with Scripture many times but your carnal mind is keeping you blind to the Truth. Selah.
 
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Douggg

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Yes, the exact starting and ending point of the period mentioned is known only to God. We are told by God's Word that it began with Satan being bound at the Cross,
No, it does not say that Satan was cast into the bottomless for 1000 years, except in Revelation 20:1-3. Revelation 20:2 is not in any other place in the bible.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

-----------------------------------------------

Are you Amil ?
 

TribulationSigns

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No, it does not say that Satan was cast into the bottomless for 1000 years, except in Revelation 20:1-3.

Well, there you have the answer. Revealtion 20:1-3 say that Satan was cast into the bottomless pit for thousand years (fullness of whatever is in view, not literal 1,000 years).

Revelation 20:2 is not in any other place in the bible.

Oh yes. I explained this to you many times in the past.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Okay, and?

Are you Amil ?

How long have you been with me (May, 2023) and yet you do not know my position despite 933 posts I made here? I even declared my position when you ask everyone for their positions.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Might it not be that the piece of land is on the new earth? I think it just might be the case!
LOL. Are you trying to miss the point? Hebrews 11:8-16 makes it quite clear that God had something even better in mind for His people than just that piece of land. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood this, so why can't you? God's people will all inherit the entire new earth. But, you want to insist on only inheriting a piece of land instead.

I have nothing to say other than "heavenly" is in the genitive case. I explained that the basic meaning of that case is descriptive not location.
Yes, being heavenly in nature means being perfect without sin and death. It's the eternal new heavens and new earth where righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain that we will inherit.

Yeah, but I don't see where Peter, Stephen, or Paul said anything about Israel losing their inheritance. In fact I think Paul made his thinking clear on the matter in Romans 11.
Why do you talk about Israel having their own inheritance when scripture says that Gentile believers are fellowheirs of God's promises to them (Ephesians 3:1-6)? Is that something you have a problem with? Whatever you think they will inherit, Gentile believers will inherit it as well. It seems that you're not comfortable with that idea for some reason even though scripture is clear that Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one as fellowcitizens in the temple/household of God (Ephesians 2:11-22).

Are you reading my posts without preconceived ideas? There are no less than 150 verses that promised a physical land for Israel that you are ignoring.
LOL. I'm not ignoring anything. Stop lying. I never ignore anything. What you are ignoring is the entire NT, apparently. You ignore that Jew and Gentile believers are together as one and share in God's promises. This was not made clear in the OT. Paul explained that it was a mystery then. But, it's not a mystery anymore! Why is it still a mystery to you? What also was a mystery is that God had something far better than just that earthly piece of land on this earth as we know it for His people. He is giving us the entire eternal new heavens and new earth as an inheritance. We should be celebrating this, but you're stuck on wanting Israel to just inherit a temporal piece of land instead.

Nonetheless. they are really there.
Yes, and you are not allowing the NT to explain them for you. You think you know better than the NT authors about how the OT should be understood. You need to humble yourself and accept what the NT authors like Paul taught. Together, Jew and Gentile believers, as one body, are looking for a heavenly country. We are looking for the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. We are fellowheirs of God's promises to Israel. You apparently don't like that. Too bad! That's what scripture teaches. You need to accept what the NT teaches instead of insisting that your interpretation of the OT is superior to that of the NT authors.

They are written at an 8th grade reading level, so not hard to read. They've been there for thousands of years. Furthermore there is nothing in the Gospels or Paul's letters that contradict them.
Yes, there is! You do not accept that Paul said Gentile believers are fellowheirs of God's promises with Israelite believers. You insist that He has separate plans for Israel and for the church even though Paul clearly taught otherwise. He taught it very clearly at an 8th grade reading level. Or maybe more like 4th grade.

It's you that changes the 150 clear verse so as to align with what you think Hebrews says. Of course, what you think Hebrew says contradicts the 150 clear verse in the OT.
LOL. Ridiculous! I change nothing! I accept what the NT teaches. You do not.

In simple terms, can you explain why the mention of the "New Covenant" in Hebrews can not refer to the "New Covenant" mentioned Jeremiah 31:31? I've given my take on that many times and have yet to get a cogent rebuttal. All I get are LOLs. That wont' convince me of anything. I need substance if I'm to change my doctrine.
What are you talking about? Of course the new covenant is the new covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31. You can see that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12. Do you not understand what the new covenant is? Do you not understand that it was established by the blood of Christ long ago?

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


And I've told you multiple times that I read a verse and THEN decide literal or figurative?
How does that line up with the literal method of interpretation that you say you use? Or is it not a literal method of interpretation?

So let me get this straight. You are saying that Israel will receive the promised kingdom on the earth when Jesus returns. Is that right? That's kind of a game changer.
LOL. Where did you get that from? Have I not been saying all along that believers (the church) will all inherit the new heavens and new earth when He comes? I do not see God as having separate plans for Israel and the church as you do. That is not taught in scripture. You have to ignore all the scriptures which say there is now no difference between the Jew and Gentile and that we're all one in Jesus Christ in order to believe that.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I tried to quote 150+ verses, but we're only allowed 10,000 characters. Still this should be enough to start with,


Gen 12:7,

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Gen 13:15,

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Gen 13:17,

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Gen 15:18,

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:8,

And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 24:7,

The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

Gen 26:2,

And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Gen 26:3,

Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

Gen 26:2,

And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Gen 26:3,

Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

Gen 28:13,

And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

Gen 48:4,

And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee [for] an everlasting possession.

Gen 50:24,

And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Exod 6:4,

And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

Exod 12:25,

And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.

Exod 13:5,

And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.

Exod 13:11,

And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,

Exod 20:12,

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Exod 23:30,

By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

Exod 32:13,

Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever.

Exod 33:1,

And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, [and] go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:

Lev 14:34,

When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;

Lev 23:10,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Lev 25:2,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

Lev 25:24,

And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant a redemption for the land.

Lev 25:38,

I [am] the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, [and] to be your God.

Lev 26:42,

Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Num 11:12,

Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

Num 14:8,

If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.

Num 14:16,

Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.

Num 14:23,

Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

Num 14:24,

But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Num 14:30,

Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, [concerning] which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Num 20:12,

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Num 20:24,

Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah.

Num 26:53,

Unto these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names.

Num 27:12,

And the LORD said unto Moses, Get thee up into this mount Abarim, and see the land which I have given unto the children of Israel.

Num 32:7,

And wherefore discourage ye the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the land which the LORD hath given them?

Num 32:11,

Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:

Num 33:53,

And ye shall dispossess [the inhabitants] of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.

Num 34:2,

Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this [is] the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, [even] the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof:)

Num 34:12,

And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about.

Num 36:2,

And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.

Deut 1:8,

Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

Deut 1:21,

Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up [and] possess [it], as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.

Deut 1:35,

Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,

Deut 2:29,

(As the children of Esau which dwell in Seir, and the Moabites which dwell in Ar, did unto me;) until I shall pass over Jordan into the land which the LORD our God giveth us.
LOL!!! I said a few. That would've been sufficient. If you actually accepted what the NT teaches, then you would accept that while it was hidden in the OT, the fact of the matter is that Gentile believers are fellowheirs with Israelite believers of God's promises (Ephesians 3:1-6) and that God has something even better in store for His people (which include Gentile believers) than that piece of land that Abraham considered to be "a strange country". He, Isaac and Jacob came to realize that God has a better heavenly country in store for them. They, along with the rest of God's people will inherit the new heavens and new earth for eternity. This is a great thing that God has something even better in store for His people than what is indicated in the OT, but instead of celebrating that, you insist that they only inherit a piece of land instead of the whole new heavens and new earth.
 
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Rich R

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LOL. Are you trying to miss the point? Hebrews 11:8-16 makes it quite clear that God had something even better in mind for His people than just that piece of land. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood this, so why can't you? God's people will all inherit the entire new earth. But, you want to insist on only inheriting a piece of land instead.
Where in Hebrews 11:8-16 say that God abandoned His plans to give land (the earth, whatever) to Abraham. Please be as specific as I've been. I said that, according to Greek Grammar, the word "heavenly" being in the Genitive case was descriptive and was not describing it's location.
Why do you talk about Israel having their own inheritance when scripture says that Gentile believers are fellowheirs of God's promises to them (Ephesians 3:1-6)? Is that something you have a problem with? Whatever you think they will inherit, Gentile believers will inherit it as well. It seems that you're not comfortable with that idea for some reason even though scripture is clear that Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one as fellowcitizens in the temple/household of God (Ephesians 2:11-22).
Which household and temple of God you assume to be in heaven. Yes we are being built together for a temple of God. Now here's a case you you are taking an obvious figure and making it literal. Why do I know it's figurative? Because I'm flesh and blood, not brick and mortar.
LOL. I'm not ignoring anything. Stop lying. I never ignore anything. What you are ignoring is the entire NT, apparently. You ignore that Jew and Gentile believers are together as one and share in God's promises.
I've said that before anybody else here, so you yourself must be ignoring at least that. I was as specific on the matter as to say the fullness of God's promise is yet future.
This was not made clear in the OT. Paul explained that it was a mystery then. But, it's not a mystery anymore! Why is it still a mystery to you? What also was a mystery is that God had something far better than just that earthly piece of land on this earth as we know it for His people. He is giving us the entire eternal new heavens and new earth as an inheritance. We should be celebrating this, but you're stuck on wanting Israel to just inherit a temporal piece of land instead.
It's not just some temporal piece of land with which I'm satisfied. It's a renewed and eternal Garden of Eden where there will be no more tears, suffering, sin, or even death, that I'm waiting for.
Yes, and you are not allowing the NT to explain them for you. You think you know better than the NT authors about how the OT should be understood. You need to humble yourself and accept what the NT authors like Paul taught. Together, Jew and Gentile believers, as one body, are looking for a heavenly country.
Though you claim you do not ignore my posts, reality suggests otherwise. I've addressed "heavenly" multiple time now. I'll do it once more:

"Heavenly" being in genitive case is descriptive. It has nothing to do with it's location. It'd be nice for you to stop saying LOL, I don't know what I'm talking about, I know more than Paul...ad nauseam, and address that simple assertion head on. Is the genitive case used to describe or locate?

We are looking for the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. We are fellowheirs of God's promises to Israel. You apparently don't like that. Too bad! That's what scripture teaches. You need to accept what the NT teaches instead of insisting that your interpretation of the OT is superior to that of the NT authors.


Yes, there is! You do not accept that Paul said Gentile believers are fellowheirs of God's promises with Israelite believers. You insist that He has separate plans for Israel and for the church even though Paul clearly taught otherwise. He taught it very clearly at an 8th grade reading level. Or maybe more like 4th grade.
Ephesians does not contradict Romans 11. Romans 11 is bviously describes something Israel does not have now but will have in the future. So either Ephesians is wrong, Romans is wrong, or they are talking about two entirely different things.

Romans and Ephesians are talking about two different plans. Ephesians is talking about born again Jews and born again Christians who will in the future share Israel's promised land (hence fellowheirs) which as per Romans 11 is yet to come.

One plan for born again Jews and Gentiles, one plan for the Jews who did not get born again is two plans. Else where would poor Moses end up? Obviously didn't have a chance to get born again.
LOL. Ridiculous! I change nothing! I accept what the NT teaches. You do not.

What are you talking about? Of course the new covenant is the new covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31. You can see that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12. Do you not understand what the new covenant is? Do you not understand that it was established by the blood of Christ long ago?

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
I've said multiple times there is a better covenant. I've also said it is yet to be fully revealed. If you didn't get it, then that's pretty hard evidence that, despite your denials, you are ignoring my posts.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Where in Hebrews 11:8-16 say that God abandoned His plans to give land (the earth, whatever) to Abraham. Please be as specific as I've been. I said that, according to Greek Grammar, the word "heavenly" being in the Genitive case was descriptive and was not describing it's location.

Which household and temple of God you assume to be in heaven. Yes we are being built together for a temple of God. Now here's a case you you are taking an obvious figure and making it literal. Why do I know it's figurative? Because I'm flesh and blood, not brick and mortar.

I've said that before anybody else here, so you yourself must be ignoring at least that. I was as specific on the matter as to say the fullness of God's promise is yet future.

It's not just some temporal piece of land with which I'm satisfied. It's a renewed and eternal Garden of Eden where there will be no more tears, suffering, sin, or even death, that I'm waiting for.

Though you claim you do not ignore my posts, reality suggests otherwise. I've addressed "heavenly" multiple time now. I'll do it once more:

"Heavenly" being in genitive case is descriptive. It has nothing to do with it's location. It'd be nice for you to stop saying LOL, I don't know what I'm talking about, I know more than Paul...ad nauseam, and address that simple assertion head on. Is the genitive case used to describe or locate?


Ephesians does not contradict Romans 11. Romans 11 is bviously describes something Israel does not have now but will have in the future. So either Ephesians is wrong, Romans is wrong, or they are talking about two entirely different things.

Romans and Ephesians are talking about two different plans. Ephesians is talking about born again Jews and born again Christians who will in the future share Israel's promised land (hence fellowheirs) which as per Romans 11 is yet to come.

One plan for born again Jews and Gentiles, one plan for the Jews who did not get born again is two plans. Else where would poor Moses end up? Obviously didn't have a chance to get born again.

I've said multiple times there is a better covenant. I've also said it is yet to be fully revealed. If you didn't get it, then that's pretty hard evidence that, despite your denials, you are ignoring my posts.
I'm not ignoring your posts, but since you say that I am, then I will show you what it really means for me to ignore your posts.
 

Rich R

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1. existing in heaven...Hebrews 11:16

"Existing in heaven" describes where it's located. There's your genitive.

It exists in heaven, so it's located in heaven.

Where else?
No, that's not what the genitive case means. It describes the nature of something, not it's location. There other ways the Greek language uses to locate something.

You clearly don't understand the genitive case. To you it means what you want it to mean, specifically whatever it takes to align with your preconceived ideas. That's just not how any language works, let alone Greek which is arguably the most precise language in all history.
 

Zao is life

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Where in Hebrews 11:8-16 say that God abandoned His plans to give land (the earth, whatever) to Abraham. Please be as specific as I've been. I said that, according to Greek Grammar, the word "heavenly" being in the Genitive case was descriptive and was not describing it's location.
Makes sense to me. Thanks for that. (Just so you know that others will hear).
Which household and temple of God you assume to be in heaven. Yes we are being built together for a temple of God. Now here's a case you you are taking an obvious figure and making it literal. Why do I know it's figurative? Because I'm flesh and blood, not brick and mortar.
Makes sense again.
It's not just some temporal piece of land with which I'm satisfied. It's a renewed and eternal Garden of Eden where there will be no more tears, suffering, sin, or even death, that I'm waiting for.
True.
Though you claim you do not ignore my posts, reality suggests otherwise. I've addressed "heavenly" multiple time now. I'll do it once more:

"Heavenly" being in genitive case is descriptive. It has nothing to do with it's location.
I agree with the above too. The first part is so easily noticeable, and appreciate the second part, It makes sense.
It'd be nice for you to stop saying LOL, I don't know what I'm talking about, I know more than Paul...ad nauseam, and address that simple assertion head on. Is the genitive case used to describe or locate?
sml Just as I bite my tongue and still fail to keep quiet, leopards still don't change their spots.
 
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