Amillennialism

[Trekson]

Hi, I'd like to have a debate/discussion with someone or anyone about amillennialism. If you care to do that then please post your scriptural understanding of it and I will reply. Any takers?

 

[n2thelight]

Hi, I'd like to have a debate/discussion with someone or anyone about amillennialism. If you care to do that then please post your scriptural understanding of it and I will reply. Any takers?

What's your position?

 

[Trekson]

I'm pre-millennial

 

[n2thelight]

I'm pre-millennial

I as well,just don't believe in the rapture

Pre,Mid or Post...

 

[Wormwood]

I'm Amillennial. Id be happy to discuss my understanding of Revelation with you Trekson. In my view, the book of Revelation is cyclical. It contains a series of visions that have different emphases that build upon one another after the initial exhortation to the 7 churches.

7 churches (1-3)
7 seals (4-7)
7 Trumpets (8-11)
Woman & Dragon (12-14)
7 Plagues (15-19)
Heavenly Kingdom (20-22)

 

[Trekson]

Hi Wormwood, I'm looking forward to the discussion but you didn't give me much to start with. While you see them as cyclical, I see them as literal and sequential with the letter to the churches (1-3) being the "things which are" from Rev. 1:19.

 

[Wormwood]

Ok, sounds good Trekson. Ill just start with why I think it is incorrect to view the book of Revelation as chronological.

THE VISION OF THE 7 SEALS (4-7)
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 5:5, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 6:8, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
Christ returns/wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 6:14–17, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 7:16–17, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

THE VISION OF THE 7 TRUMPETS (8-11)
The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 8:13, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
Christ returns/wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 11:12–13, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 11:15, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

THE VISION OF THE WOMAN & DRAGON (12-14)
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 12:5, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 12:12, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 14:18–20, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 14:14–16, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

THE VISION OF THE 7 PLAGUES (15-19)
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt]“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 15:4, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 16:1, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 19:11–16, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 19:6–9, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

THE VISION OF THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM (20-22)
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 20:1–3, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 20:4, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 20:10–15, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 21:1–7, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]So, Trekson, as I see it, it seems absurd to see Revelation as chronological. I mean, Jesus appears in heaven in Rev. 5 as the risen, Lamb that was slain and then he is born and ascends in Revelation 12! Moreover, we see the wrath of God poured out in judgment on all the earth in Revelation 11, 14, 19 and 20. We also see the righteous glorified in those same contexts. I mean, consider Revelation 11 where it says, [/SIZE]

15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

How is this not referring to the end of the world? How can the kingdom of the world become the kingdom of Christ and yet we arent even close to the end of Revelation from a chronological standpoint? Or even earlier in Revelation we read,

“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.” (Revelation 6:12–14, ESV)

How can all the mountains be removed and the sky rolled up like a scroll and that not be the end of the world? Does the "Antichrist" rule a world with no islands, sky or mountains?

Moreover, compare Rev 7 and Rev 21



““Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”” (Revelation 7:15–17, ESV)

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:1–4, ESV)

In my view, these two texts are nearly identical because they are describing the same thing: God's care for his people in eternity to come. Each vision has a different emphasis and acts as an encouragement for Christians of ALL ages to be faithful and not compromise. According to the chronological view, the book of Revelation really only serves to predict the future and has little value for Christians throughout most of the ages because it only really refers to the final few years of human history prior to the millennium and eternity.

So how would you explain this continual, repetitive acts of worldwide judgment on the wicked and glorifying the faithful over and over and over and over again in Revelation if it is chronological?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Wormwood, My goodness, you have me at a disadvantage. This is obviously something you had prepared ahead of time. No offense because I can be a little verbose as well, but it's like I'm have a Retrobyter flashback. No offense, Retro, if you're still around. Anyway, it might take most of tomorrow to craft a reply so a little patience would be appreciated. However, I do like your direct approach and sense of reasoning even if I disagree with your outcome.

 

[Wormwood]

Haha, yes, sorry its a bit overwhelming. Revelation is difficult to discuss in small chunks. However, if you want to hone in on something small, like the millennium itself (Rev. 20:1-7), we can do that if it makes it easier to discuss. I have been teaching and reading on Revelation recently, so I have a bunch of materials I have created. I will try not to copy and paste it all as I did above, but condense it down as we go along to make it easier to discuss. I look forward to the conversation and understand that this will likely just be to help broaden us both even if we do not change our opinions on the matter. Have a blessed evening!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Wormwood, I guess the easiest way to do this is to keep your format and just comment as we read along. Since the whole of the NT glorifies Christ, Revelation isn’t any different so I don’t consider that as part of a “cycle”. That part, at least, is just a continuation of the whole book. What you call cycles, I would call themes. Similar but with different characters, different judgments and different durations. You seem to give an “overview” assessment of Revelation, which is accurate but the details within each segment is what shows it to be, for the most part, sequential.

[SIZE=13.5pt] THE VISION OF THE 7 SEALS (4-7)[/SIZE]
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 5:5, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I would say identified would be better than glorified for this verse but as Christ is glorified later in the chapter, it’s a moot point.[/SIZE]

The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 6:8, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The detail[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] here is a “fourth of the earth”. I consider this a geographical quarter and not a body count[/SIZE]
Christ returns/wicked are punished:

[SIZE=11.5pt] “The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 6:14–17, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The seals are not any part of [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]God’s wrath. They are the “countdown”, so to speak, to the beginning of wrath/judgment. I questioned the use of the word “their” in the ESV and I looked at all the English translations and it comes out to about 50/50 with the use of the word “his”. I do consider “their” to be an improper translation as the “Lamb” is singular so “his” makes more sense and helps to understand the sequential aspects of Revelation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Another detail is Rev. 6:11. Here Christ informs us that there are more martyrs to be killed so this is NOT a picture of the end. They also acknowledge that God’s wrath hasn’t begun yet. It’s my opinion that the wraths are the contents of the scroll and thus can’t begin until the final seal is opened which is exactly the picture given us in Rev. 8:1-4. This is the first part of Christ’s return in the sky as depicted in Matt. 24:30-31.[/SIZE]

The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 7:16–17, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]The detail here is who are the faithful? The answer is that this very large group are the raptured/resurrected church. Can people still be saved after this event? I believe they will. That this equals the fulfillment of a prophecy from Is. 49:10[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] should come as no surprise. Is. 49:10 – “[/SIZE]They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.” It also follows that all who die from this point on for Christ would also be partakers of this same promise.

[SIZE=13.5pt]THE VISION OF THE 7 TRUMPETS (8-11)[/SIZE]

You’re missing part 1 of your cycle.

The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 8:13, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Does the earth suffer continuously in this seven yr. period? Yes but the bible shows that the sufferings are different in type and scope. They are not the same things repeated over and over as in a cycle but sequential with increasing severity as mankind refuses to repent. In the last segment we had war, hunger, plagues and pestilence and beasts. Here we have 1/3 trees and all green grass, then 1/3 sea turns to blood and 1/3 sea creatures die, next 1/3 of the fresh water are affected. Then we have 1/3 of the sky, stars, sun and moon which could have many causes. Think back to the plagues of Egypt. Ten plagues, all different in type and scope but they weren’t cyclical, they were sequential![/SIZE]

Christ returns/wicked are punished:

[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 11:12–13, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]There is nothing in this verse that suggests a return of Christ, just the resurrection/rapture of the two witnesses. The judgment is concentrated on one city, Jerusalem and a particular number, 7000, are killed. Nothing implies that they were ‘wicked”. Just as any other large earthquake has a death toll, this one does as well.[/SIZE]

The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 11:15, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]The detail here is in the term “has become”. Just as in Rev. 6:17 when it says the wrath of the Lamb “has come” it is meaning it is about to begin, not that it’s been happening for a long while. As the wrath of the Lamb, which are the trumpets, take time to complete, so to does the final outcome of this speaking forward in faith. This is a good of example of the meaning of faith as described in Heb. 11:1 – “[/SIZE]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”[SIZE=11.5pt] It’s begun, but it’s not complete as the rest of Rev. shows.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt] THE VISION OF THE WOMAN & DRAGON (12-14)[/SIZE]
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 12:5, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]No, Christ isn’t glorified here. This is one of the few non-sequential parts that are basically a summary of what brought us to this point. This is the history of the birth, death and resurrection of Christ summed up in one sentence.[/SIZE]

The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 12:12, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Yes, this is Satan’s wrath which is different from both the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] Rev. 12:9 is the starting point of the latter 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70th week.[/SIZE]

Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 14:18–20, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]The timing of the passage is a little confusing because it seems out of place. Nothing here suggests that Christ returns because it is an angel on a cloud that is doing the reaping back in verse 16. Earlier in vs. 7 it speaks of God’s coming judgment, which are the vial judgments which are different and separate from the trumpet wraths of the Lamb.[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] Vs. 8 speaks of the fall of Babylon which is described in Rev. 18. The third angel tells the fate of those who put their faith in the Anti-Christ and accepted his mark. So, it’s kind of like a prophecy within a prophecy. There are a couple of non-provable theories which could explain this. One is that this is depicting the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 when it is decided who will enter into the millennial age based on works (their conduct during the 70th week, both jews and gentiles) as described in the latter verses of Matt. 25. The other is a second rapture which I find unlikely. I lean towards the former.[/SIZE]

The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 14:14–16, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]There is nothing here describing any celebration. That is an assumption not based on this passage of scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]THE VISION OF THE 7 PLAGUES (15-19)[/SIZE]
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt]“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 15:4, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE]
The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 16:1, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]As highlighted above this is a continuation of the sequence and the wrath of God, as stated earlier, is different and separate from the wrath of the Lamb. This could be considered the final knockout blows before Armageddon ends the 70th week and the millennium begins.[/SIZE]

Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 19:11–16, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]I agree [/SIZE]that this is the physical return of Christ to Earth, which is a different picture of His return then the one we get when we consider Acts 1:11.

The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 19:6–9, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Yes, at this point there is much to celebrate.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]THE VISION OF THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM (20-22)[/SIZE]
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 20:1–3, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Here we are given a specific time period. A thousand years. Previously, God had no problem giving us specific time periods, 5 months, 1260 days, 42 months, times, time and 1/2 a time (3 1/2 yrs.). Christ is not being glorified in these verses. Earlier in the bible it says “a day with the Lord is as a thousand years” so from God’s point of view why would he only lock up the devil for a day? If indeed this was the end, why in the world would he let him out again? A thousand years IS NOT code for eternity.[/SIZE]

The earth suffers:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 20:4, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]This does not depict the ‘earth suffering”. This is the rewarding of the saints. The resurrected martyrs who we first saw a part of them back in Rev. 6.[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] Again, a specific time period. There are many OT prophecies about what life will be like in the era and none of them have occurred yet.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE]
Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 20:10–15, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Nothing here depicts a “return” of Christ. He’s already been here ruling and reigning for a thousand years. You’re forgetting a very important verse. Rev. 20:7 – “[/SIZE]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,”[SIZE=11.5pt] Hmmm, the literal 1000 years has a literal end. Does eternity end? How long is he loosed for? No one knows but I doubt that it’s a matter of weeks or months. It could be millennia.[/SIZE]

The faithful celebrate:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 21:1–7, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]Will the faithful have multiple opportunities to celebrate? Of course, we won’t be celebrating just one time, we’ll be celebrating over and over again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]So, Trekson, as I see it, it seems absurd to see Revelation as chronological. I mean, Jesus appears in heaven in [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Rev. 5[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] as the risen, Lamb that was slain and then he is born and ascends in Revelation 12! Moreover, we see the wrath of God poured out in judgment on all the earth in Revelation 11, 14, 19 and 20. We also see the righteous glorified in those same contexts. I mean, consider Revelation 11 where it says, [/SIZE]

Quote
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
Covered earlier

How is this not referring to the end of the world? How can the kingdom of the world become the kingdom of Christ and yet we arent even close to the end of Revelation from a chronological standpoint? Or even earlier in Revelation we read,

Covered earlier


Quote
“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.” (Revelation 6:12–14, ESV)
How can all the mountains be removed and the sky rolled up like a scroll and that not be the end of the world? Does the "Antichrist" rule a world with no islands, sky or mountains?

Nothing in the word “moved” (KJV) suggests a literal “vanishing”. It’s just literally an earthshaking earthquake that affects the whole world. I can’t explain what the sky separating looks like but we’ll know it when we see it but it probably has something to do with the stars falling, which is probably a preliminary meteor shower leading up to the ones that strike the earth in the first three trumpets.

Moreover, compare Rev 7 and Rev 21

““Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”” (Revelation 7:15–17, ESV)

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:1–4, ESV)

In my view, these two texts are nearly identical because they are describing the same thing: God's care for his people in eternity to come. Each vision has a different emphasis and acts as an encouragement for Christians of ALL ages to be faithful and not compromise. According to the chronological view, the book of Revelation really only serves to predict the future and has little value for Christians throughout most of the ages because it only really refers to the final few years of human history prior to the millennium and eternity.

Rev. 7 is speaking of the raptured/resurrected church only. Rev. 21 is including all the rest from those saved after the rapture to those who have lived and died through the millennium. Your last sentence is really a negative view of Revelation. While I don’t believe in imminence, I do believe that every generation since Christ should have lived with the expectation that these events could happen in their lifetime and as such we are promised a blessing in Rev. 1:3 for considering that possibility. Also the letters to the churches offer us examples of how not to be and what our rewards could be in the future regardless of what generation we’re in.
There are many prophecies in the OT which would affect only those living in the days of Christ first advent, so it’s not unreasonable to assume that God would go into details of the earths last days so that the church of the day would recognize what is happening and go into overdrive, witnessing and saving souls from the predicted wraths.

So how would you explain this continual, repetitive acts of worldwide judgment on the wicked and glorifying the faithful over and over and over and over again in Revelation if it is chronological?

The same way as we would the OT example of Israel.

Israel is afflicted- 400 years of slavery, 40 years in the desert, 70 yrs. Babylonian captivity.

Israel is redeemed – set free from slavery, allowed to enter the promised land, freed from captivity
.
Israel repents

Israel fails again

but they were not all the same event with the same judgment, they occurred sequentially over time, one after another. As depicted in Revelations, the judgments are not the same, they have different scopes, different lengths with increasing levels of severity all to prove the point that “God is not willing that any should perish”. He keeps giving humanity increasing levels of judgments and multiple opportunities to turn back to God and repent. Sounds like a loving God to me, giving humanity every opportunity to repent and proving by “signs” He is who He said He was and is proving it by fulfilling prophecy step by step, one by one so humanity will absolutely have no excuse.

 

[Wormwood]

Trekson,

Thanks for your reply. First, let me comment a little on my overall view of Revelation so there isnt any confusion. First, the "cycles" I see in revelation are not exact forms. It's literature, not a mathematical equation. So I dont expect them to fit some exact mold for every vision. Second, when I say "cycles" I simply mean they are a series of visions describing the same period of time in different ways. The focus of each vision is on different things. I see Revelation much like I see Daniel. Daniel has a series of dreams/visions and those dreams and visions cover the same span of time. We dont assume the dream of the statue comes before the dream of the Lion, Bear, Leopard, Beast. No, The golden head of the statue corresponds to the same Babylonian period as the lion. Its not sequential, but two dreams of the same empires with a different focus in each of the visions.

So, I think the reason we see these continual judgments and celebrations of people dressed in white shows that this is the same period of time in view, but each vision highlights a different aspect of God's plan, wrath and the cause of human suffering in the world as we await the second coming. In my view, the point of Revelation is not figuring out when we suddenly enter this "end times" period. Rather, it is showing that we are already in the "end times" and is explaining why there is so much suffering in the world and how important it is for Christians to be faithful and not compromise. These are not future, distant events that have nothing to do with the bulk of Christians throughout history. Rather, these are present spiritual battles taking place that are warring against faithful believers. The false prophet is not a future person we need to be on the lookout for. Rather it is an image of the false religions of the world that seek to lead Christians astray. The "mark of the Beast" is not some future tatoo or microchip we need to stress about. It is the antithesis of the mark of the Holy Spirit. The point is that God clearly sees who has compromised and serves this world, and who is faithful and serves Christ. Though we may not clearly see, Jesus has eyes of fire and he knows our hearts and sees the truth (just as he does with the 7 churches at the beginning of Revelation). Im sure all the Christians in Ephesus, Smyrna, Laodaciea, etc. thought they were in fine shape. But Jesus sees who has been compromised and the book of Revelation explains why we must take faithfulness seriously and repent. Rome (or whatever government the Christian might live under) may wield the sword, but Jesus hold the keys to death and Hades. The authorities can kill the body, but Jesus can cast a person into eternal fire. Thus, we should seek to be faithful and not lose sight of the fact that the powers of this world often serve as puppets for the dragon who is at work to snuff out those who are faithful to Jesus. THAT is the point of Revelation.

 

[blessedhope]

Wormwood your views are Garbage and lets take it to the curb, you takes bits and make it your way not the bibles, so lets take a bit from you
THE VISION OF THE WOMAN & DRAGON (12-14)
Christ is glorified:
[SIZE=11.5pt] “She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,” ([/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]Revelation 12:5, [/SIZE]
you push this out but with no understanding just words! and rambling on!
The woman, as embodied by a remnant of her Israeli "offspring," will flee into the desert, to be protected by God, for 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6)—that is, for the last 3½ years of the 70th Week. Just as God reserved and protected a remnant of Israelites who were true to Him in the day of Elijah (1 Kings 19:18), so He will protect a remnant in the future. This endangered remnant, fleeing the land of Judea (probably mostly Jews), parallels what Jesus spoke about in His Olivet Discourse:
So when you see standing in the holy place "the abomination that causes desolation," spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress [great tribulation], unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again (Matthew 24:15-21).

As shown in abomination that causes desolation, the fleeing of people from Judea will take place at the midpoint of the 70th Week. It cannot be assumed that everybody in Judea will flee; many may not even heed the warning. Jesus indicated that they will flee to the mountains; John said that they will flee into the desert. Many Christian scholars suggest that they will flee to a place in the mountain-desert area of western Jordan (perhaps to the rocky, "fortified city" of Petra, accessible to Israelis as part of the Israeli-Jordanian peace accord of October 26, 1994). Wherever they go, it will be a place which God will have prepared for them, and He supernaturally will take care of them there for 1,260 days.
John wrote, "The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert...” (Revelation 12:14). Some believe this is an indication that a large airplane or some other flying structure will take the people to their destination. Yet, after the Israelites had left Egypt, God said to Moses, "You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself" (Exodus 19:4). Thus, it may be that “two wings of a great eagle” is a figurative phrase indicating a supernatural deliverance or rescue, directly by God, who parted the Red Sea for the ancient Israelites to pass through (14:13-31).

 

[blessedhope]

And the bible goes on about the Temple.

The Third and Fourth Jewish Temples
Only a small number of Orthodox Jewish believers in Israel today believe that the coming Third Temple will be built by the Jewish Messiah when he appears. Groups such as The Temple Institute believe it is incumbent upon them to make all possible preparations in advance - and to build the Third Temple when the freedom to do so is gained on the Temple Mount - whether or not the Messiah arrives before or after a Third Temple is erected.

The post-exilic prophet Zechariah (who wrote around the year 500 BC) says that Messiah, whom he calls the "Branch" would Himself one day build a temple in Israel. The Branch will be an individual in whom the offices of both King and High Priest are combined:

"Take from them (the returning exiles from Babylon) silver and gold, and make a crown, and set it upon the head of (Yeshua) Joshua, the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord of hosts, "Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall grow up in his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord. It is he who shall build the temple of the Lord, and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule upon his throne. And there shall be a priest by his throne, and peaceful understanding shall be between them both."' (Zechariah 6:13.)

Christians believe that the promised Messiah, Jesus (Yeshua), has already come to earth once--and will come a second time to establish his millennial kingdom on the earth, ruling thereafter from Jerusalem from the throne of His forefather King David. The New Testament Epistle to the Hebrews describes the once-for-all, fully-efficacious, blood sacrifice of Jesus as the true Lamb of God. In contrast, the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were but shadows pointing to Messiah's coming. Although the New Testament speaks three times of the existence of a Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem at the end of the present age, as we have already discussed, the fate of that Third Temple is not given in the New Testament.

A great and devastating earthquake is associated with the second coming of Jesus to the Mount of Olives which apparently will destroy most of the city of Jerusalem at that time. Major topographic changes will occur throughout the land of Israel as well.

These changes in the entire land when Messiah comes are spoken of in numerous passages of the Bible:

• Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins. A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:1-5, quoted in Luke 3:5)
• 
  
• 
  
• But on that day...says the Lord GOD, my wrath will be roused. For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; the fish of the sea, and the birds of the air, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground. (Ezekiel 38:18-22)
• 
  
• 
  
• The seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" And there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as had never been since men were on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city [Jerusalem] was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found; and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague. (Revelation 16:17-21)
• 
  
• 
  
• For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him. On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost. And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light. On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter. And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one. The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft upon its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. (Zechariah 14:2-10)

Thus it is reasonable to suppose that the Third Temple will be destroyed by the final earthquake at Messiah's appearing in glory, or by the final military invasion of Jerusalem during World War III spoken of also by Zechariah in the above passage.

The prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 40-48) describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel proper measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area (See inset in diagram below). Ezekiel's temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere). Therefore most Bible scholars believe there will one day exist in the Holy Land a Fourth or "Millennial" Temple.

Ezekiel also describes the reapportionment of the land in specific lots during the millennial kingdom. The temple and the temple district are not part of the rebuilt city of Jerusalem according to the details of this reapportionment. Note that the Temple area will be located to the North of rebuilt Jerusalem:

"When you allot the land as a possession, you shall set apart for the Lord a portion of the land as a holy district, twenty-five thousand cubits long and twenty thousand cubits broad; it shall be holy throughout its whole extent. Of this a square plot of five hundred by five hundred cubits shall be for the sanctuary, with fifty cubits for an open space around it. And in the holy district you shall measure off a section twenty-five thousand cubits long and ten thousand broad, in which shall be the sanctuary, the most holy place. It shall be the holy portion of the land; it shall be for the priests, who minister in the sanctuary and approach the Lord to minister to him; and it shall be a place for their houses and a holy place for the sanctuary. Another section, twenty-five thousand cubits long and ten thousand cubits broad, shall be for the Levites who minister at the temple, as their possession for cities to live in."

"Alongside the portion set apart as the holy district you shall assign for the possession of the city an area five thousand cubits broad, and twenty-five thousand cubits long it shall belong to the whole house of Israel."

"And to the prince shall belong the land on both sides of the holy district and the property of the city, on the west and on the east, corresponding in length to one of the tribal portions, and extending from the western to the eastern boundary of the land. It is to be his property in Israel. And my princes shall no more oppress my people; but they shall let the house of Israel have the land according to their tribes." (Ezekiel 45:1-8.)

"Adjoining the territory of Judah, from the east side to the west, shall be the portion which you shall set apart, twenty-five thousand cubits in breadth, and in length equal to one of the tribal portions, from the east side to the west, with the sanctuary in the midst of it. The portion which you shall set apart for the Lord shall be twenty-five thousand cubits in length, and twenty thousand in breadth." (Ezekiel 48)

According to many Christian Bible scholars, the Fourth Temple (Ezekiel 40-45) will be "memorial" - a teaching center apparently to instruct men about the holiness of God and proper worship during the coming kingdom of Jesus on the earth. As sinful men and women continue to be born into the world in the millennium, the temple is supposed to remind everyone of the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross, as the "Lamb of God," some two thousand years earlier.

Although Ezekiel is a much-neglected book, several good commentaries (Ref. 1, 2) complete with detailed analysis of the chapters on the Millennial temple are in print. In addition Mr. John W. Schmitt of Portland, Oregon (Ref. 3) has devoted many years to a study of Ezekiel's Temple, and to the construction of several fine scale models used for educational purposes.

Ezekiel had planned to enter the priestly service in the First Temple when he reached thirty years of age. His plans were cut short in 597 when King Nebuchadnezzar raided and captured Jerusalem after a brief siege, taking with him young king Jehoichin and "all the princes, and all the mighty men of valor, ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths." (2 Kings 24:14). (By way of reference, Daniel and his three friends of the tribe of Judah plus others from Jerusalem had previously been taken to Babylon in a raid by General - soon to be King - Nebuchadnezzar after the battle of Carchemish in 605. That famous battle ended the rule of Egypt in the ancient world).

In the fifth year of his own exile from Jerusalem, that is in 593 BC, Ezekiel was called by God to exercise a prophetic ministry to the house of Israel which he continued until about the year 570. Ezekiel was married, in fact his wife died as a sign from God on the day the siege of Jerusalem began, (24:18).

Ezekiel's temple and the millennium occupies the last eight long chapters of his book. He gives 318 precise measurements of the temple using some 37 unique words that are architectural terms, such as "door-posts," "windows," etc. Ezekiel received this great wealth of information on the millennial temple in the year 573 BC in the form of a vision and a personally conducted tour of the temple by "a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze." (Evidently the Angel of the Lord). "He had a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand and he stood in the gateway." (40:3) The tour began at the Eastern Gate - which was closed:

"Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way." (44:1-3)

The present Golden Gate in the Eastern Wall of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is walled shut. Jewish and Arab tradition teaches - probably because of a misinterpretation of this passage in Ezekiel - that the Jewish Messiah is to enter the Golden Gate. For that reason the gate was walled up by the Arabs in the 11th Century after the Crusades, (if not earlier) or perhaps by Suleiman the Magnificent in AD 1539-1542 - to prevent the Jewish Messiah from entering. The much older gate beneath the present Golden Gate, or else another (as yet undiscovered) gate in the Eastern wall could have been the one used by Jesus when He rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday riding on the foal of a donkey.

In addition to being a very large and complex structure Ezekiel's temple differs in several very important ways from any previously existing Jewish temple. These have been catalogued by researcher John Schmitt, a Portland, Oregon Bible scholar, as follows:

Features Unique to Ezekiel's Temple

1. No wall of partition to exclude Gentiles (compare Ephesians 2:14) The Gentiles were previously welcome in the Outer Courts, but excluded from the inner courts on pain of death.
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. No Court of Women (compare Galatians 3:28 (Outer Court and Inner Court only)
   
   No Laver (see Ezekiel 36:24-27, John 15:3)
   
   No Table of Shewbread (see Micah 5:4, John 6:35)
   
   No Lampstand or Menorah (see Isaiah 49:6, John 8:12)
   
   No Golden Altar of Incense (Zechariah 8:20-23, John 14:6)
   
   No Veil (Isaiah 25:6-8, Matthew 27:51)
   
   No Ark of the Covenant (Jeremiah 3:16, John 10:30-33)
   
   Major Changes to the Altar: The sacrificial Altar will be approached by a ramp from the East. Previous altars were all approached from the South. Now there will be stairs to the altar, not a ramp as previously. The top of the altar is now described by the Hebrew word "ariel" [Isaiah 29:1] meaning "hearth of God" or "lion of God." [Rev. 5:5]. (Ref. 3)

If the previous temples, as well as the Tabernacle of Moses, are pictures for us of man as the dwelling place of God, then Ezekiel's temple may be intended to teach us about the marvelously new resurrection bodies waiting for every believer when he leaves this present life (2 Corinthians 5:1-5).

Believing saints from the Old Testament epoch, saints from the Christian era, and all those raised from the dead at the rapture and at the second coming of Christ in glory receive new resurrection bodies, like that of Jesus, as detailed in 1 Corinthians 15. Yet, after the Battle of Armageddon, Jesus will gather all the survivors of the nations outside Jerusalem and determine which individual sons and daughters of Adam are worthy to enter the Millennial Kingdom on earth. This is the famous judgment of the sheep and the goats described by our Lord in Matthew 25:31-46, and also given by the prophet Joel:

• "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will enter into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations, and have divided up my land, and have cast lots for my people, and have given a boy for a harlot, and have sold a girl for wine, and have drunk it. "What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will requite your deed upon your own head swiftly and speedily. For you have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried my rich treasures into your temples. You have sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, removing them far from their own border. But now I will stir them up from the place to which you have sold them, and I will requite your deed upon your own head. I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a nation far off; for the LORD has spoken." Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare war, stir up the mighty men. Let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, "I am a warrior."
• 
  
• 
  
• Hasten and come, all you nations round about, gather yourselves there. Bring down thy warriors, O LORD. Let the nations bestir themselves, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the nations round about. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Go in, tread, for the wine press is full. The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. And the LORD roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shake. But the LORD is a refuge to his people, a stronghold to the people of Israel. "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who dwell in Zion, my holy mountain. And Jerusalem shall be holy and strangers shall never again pass through it. "And in that day the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the stream beds of Judah shall flow with water; and a fountain shall come forth from the house of the LORD and water the valley of Shittim. "Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem to all generations. I will avenge their blood, and I will not clear the guilty, for the LORD dwells in Zion." (Joel 3)

The criterion for judgment at this time will be how individuals Gentiles have treated the Jews, especially believing Jews who constitute "true Israel." The "Sheep" category clearly represents those righteous gentiles whose hearts are right before the Lord, that is they are all regenerated men and women, but individuals who have not previously received their resurrection bodies. They will repopulate the earth, according to Christian belief, during the thousand year reign of Messiah under greatly improved living conditions:

"But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, or bear children for calamity; for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their children with them. Before they call I will answer, while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD." (Isaiah 65:18-25)

During this thousand year reign of Yeshua over a restored earth, with Satan locked away in the abyss (Rev. 20:2), sinners will be born on the earth and will need to be instructed in matters of God's grace and mercy. For this reason most commentators on Ezekiel believe that the Fourth Temple will be Memorial in nature, looking back in time to the cross of Jesus Christ, just as the Tabernacle and First and Second Temples pointed ahead in time to the cross. The prescribed worship services of Ezekiel's temple are also described for us in great detail by the prophet. The priests presiding over the temple services will be of the line of Zadok (44:15) who proved faithful after the failure of the Levitical priests in the line of Eli (1 Samuel 2:35, 1 Kings 2:26-27, 35). The Millennial Temple will not have a separate High Priest. Instead the previously separate ofiices of King and Priest will be combined in the Messiah as noted, (See Zechariah 6:9-15)
So is this just Garbage put into the Bible about the Temple!! I think not.

 

[blessedhope]

Has This Happenened.And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[blessedhope]

And what about this??
1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’b or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[blessedhope]

And amillennialists, they do not believe that there is no millennium at all. They just do not believe in a literal millennium—a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. Instead, they believe that Christ is now sitting on the throne of David and that this present church age is the kingdom over which Christ reigns. There is no doubt that Christ is now sitting on a throne, but this does not mean that it is what the Bible refers to as the throne of David. There is no doubt that Christ now rules, for He is God. Yet this does not mean He is ruling over the millennial kingdom.

In order for God to keep His promises to Israel and His covenant with David (2 Samuel 7:8-16, 23:5; Psalm 89:3-4), there must be a literal, physical kingdom on this earth. To doubt this is to call into question God’s desire and/or ability to keep His promises, and this opens up a host of other theological problems. For example, if God would renege on His promises to Israel after proclaiming those promises to be “everlasting,” how could we be sure of anything He promises, including the promises of salvation to believers in the Lord Jesus? The only solution is to take Him at His word and understand that His promises will be literally fulfilled.

Clear biblical indications that the kingdom will be a literal, earthly kingdom are:

1) Christ's feet will actually touch the Mount of Olives prior to the establishment of His kingdom (Zechariah 14:4, 9);

2) During the kingdom, the Messiah will execute justice and judgment on the earth (Jeremiah 23:5-8);

3) The kingdom is described as being under heaven (Daniel 7:13-14, 27);

4) The prophets foretold of dramatic earthly changes during the kingdom (Acts 3:21; Isaiah 35:1-2, 11:6-9, 29:18, 65:20-22; Ezekiel 47:1-12; Amos 9:11-15); and

5) The chronological order of events in Revelation indicates the existence of an earthly kingdom prior to the conclusion of world history (Revelation 20).

The amillennial view comes from using one method of interpretation for unfulfilled prophecy and another method for non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy. Non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy are interpreted literally or normally. But, according to the amillennialist, unfulfilled prophecy is to be interpreted spiritually, or non-literally. Those who hold to amillennialism believe that a “spiritual” reading of unfulfilled prophecy is the normal reading of the texts. This is called using a dual hermeneutic. (Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation.) The amillennialist assumes that most, or all, unfulfilled prophecy is written in symbolic, figurative, spiritual language. Therefore, the amillennialist will assign different meanings to those parts of Scripture instead of the normal, contextual meanings of those words.

The problem with interpreting unfulfilled prophecy in this manner is that this allows for a wide range of meanings. Unless you interpret Scripture in the normal sense, there will not be one meaning. Yet God, the ultimate author of all of Scripture, did have one specific meaning in mind when He inspired the human authors to write. Though there may be many life applications in a passage of Scripture, there is only one meaning, and that meaning is what God intended it to mean. Also, the fact that fulfilled prophecy was fulfilled literally is the best reason of all for assuming that unfulfilled prophecy will also be literally fulfilled. The prophecies concerning Christ's first coming were all fulfilled literally. Therefore, prophecies concerning Christ's second coming should also be expected to be fulfilled literally. For these reasons, an allegorical interpretation of unfulfilled prophecy should be rejected and a literal or normal interpretation of unfulfilled prophecy should be adopted. Amillennialism fails in that it uses inconsistent hermeneutics, namely, interpreting unfulfilled prophecy differently from fulfilled prophecy.

 

[blessedhope]

Cherry picking bible prophecy is the name of the game for amillennialists. so lets take it to the trash bin and send it to the DUMP!

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood your views are Garbage and lets take it to the curb, you takes bits and make it your way not the bibles, so lets take a bit from you

I will not engage in a discussion with you if you are going to have this kind of attitude. What's the point in arguing who is right/wrong about our views on prophecy if Christ is not honored in the discussion?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Wormwood, Your words: “Second, when I say "cycles" I simply mean they are a series of visions describing the same period of time in different ways. The focus of each vision is on different things.”

Yes and no. Are they visions of the same time period? Yes, if you mean Daniel’s 70th week, the seven yr. period mistakenly called the tribulation. Do they focus on different things? Imo, no! First, I separate the seals from the trumpets and vials because they are not part of their wrath, as explained earlier. How are they focused on different things? In your view of the cycles you divided them into four major components, I see a different four. Humanity sins, God offers the opportunity of repentance, humanity rejects Him, God sends punishment. At humanity’s continued rejection, the Godhead’s judgment gets more and more severe. I don’t know if you’re a parent or not but the pattern is similar to disciplining your child. First offense, gets a reprimand, 2nd, maybe grounded for a week, 3rd, grounding and loss of privileges, 4th, increased time of grounding and loss of privileges, 5th, depending on the age of the child, it might be time for an old fashioned whuppin’, etc.

Your words: “I see Revelation much like I see Daniel. Daniel has a series of dreams/visions and those dreams and visions cover the same span of time. We don’t assume the dream of the statue comes before the dream of the Lion, Bear, Leopard, Beast. No, the golden head of the statue corresponds to the same Babylonian period as the lion.”

Being detail oriented, I need to get a little technical here. The statue was a result of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and God gave Daniel the interpretation of the dream. Imo, that is not in the same category as a prophetic vision such as the one with the four beasts. Did they cover the same time period? Yes. However, I’m glad you brought up Daniel because the proper understanding of Daniel sets the precedent for interpreting Revelation in a sequential way.

Your words: “It’s not sequential, but two dreams of the same empires with a different focus in each of the visions.”

You’re again focusing on the big picture, there were two dreams/visions that spoke of the same ages of time. But the details of the dream/vision is what is important and they were fulfilled in “sequential order” with Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece. The statue had legs of iron which we know was Rome, however, the ten toes equates with the fourth beast of Daniel’s vision. Something that is yet to be fulfilled. Let’s look at some similarities between Daniel’s words and John’s.

Dan. 7:24 – “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.”

Rev. 17:12 – “ And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

Dan. 7:25 – “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

Rev. 13:5-6 – “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.”

Daniel gives us an introduction to the 4th Beast but Revelation provides more detail about the time in which the Beast will reign.

Your words: “In my view, the point of Revelation is not figuring out when we suddenly enter this "end times" period. Rather, it is showing that we are already in the "end times" and is explaining why there is so much suffering in the world and how important it is for Christians to be faithful and not compromise. These are future, distant events that have nothing to do with the bulk of Christians throughout history. Rather, these are present spiritual battles taking place that are warring against faithful believers.”

[SIZE=12pt]Look, the whole of the NT tells us these things. Why would Jesus give John a comprehensive, detailed vision of things to come if it was just general information already revealed to us in His Word? Revelation is a whole lot more than that and it can’t be summarized with the opening line of Dicken’s “Great Expectations”; “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times”.[/SIZE]

Your words: “The false prophet is not a future person we need to be on the lookout for. Rather it is an image of the false religions of the world that seek to lead Christians astray. The "mark of the Beast" is not some future tattoo or microchip we need to stress about. It is the antithesis of the mark of the Holy Spirit.”

I’m not saying this to be mean-spirited but don’t you think that’s what the devil is counting on? I believe they are both literal men. With all the talk of becoming a cashless society, with all the increasing evil in the world and with all the advances in technology, how can you not take this literally? Let’s get realistic for a moment. I’m sure you have friends, neighbors, family and/or co-workers where you might be the only source of truth in their lives. When, not if, there comes a time when they want to apply a barcode or something anywhere on our body in order to buy and sell are you going to advise them that it’s okay to do that because we shouldn’t take Rev. literally? All the prophecies that have been given and have been fulfilled, even if we only know it by hindsight, have been fulfilled literally! Why in the world would you assume those prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled won’t be done likewise as well?

 

[Wormwood]

Being detail oriented, I need to get a little technical here. The statue was a result of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and God gave Daniel the interpretation of the dream. Imo, that is not in the same category as a prophetic vision such as the one with the four beasts. Did they cover the same time period? Yes. However, I’m glad you brought up Daniel because the proper understanding of Daniel sets the precedent for interpreting Revelation in a sequential way.

Ok, well I cannot be both brief and technical. So, you will have to choose which path we take . I am merely trying to give you a feel for how I see the structure of Revelation and not give a detailed analysis of the content of the dreams/prophecies in the book of Daniel.

You’re again focusing on the big picture, there were two dreams/visions that spoke of the same ages of time. But the details of the dream/vision is what is important and they were fulfilled in “sequential order” with Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece.

Yes, I am giving you an overall feel for how I see Revelation, so, yes, its the "big picture." My point is simply this. One doesn't look at the various dreams and visions in Daniel and insist that one must follow the other in chronological order because one follows the other sequentially in the book. No, they both refer to the same period of time but God gives different images to highlight different aspects of that same period. That is all I am trying to say.

Now, as I see it, these visions in Revelation all focus on the "church age." They all point to the victory of Christ/binding or casting down of Satan and the period of time in which the Church suffers and struggles in the world until Christ returns. Revelation 6 shows a risen Christ victoriously taking the scroll and unlocking the seals. Revelation 12 shows Christ being taken up to God and Satan being cast down from heaven as a result. Revelation 20 shows the dragon being bound. All these images refer to the same thing...Christ's victory over the grave which results in the judgments of God and the defeat of Satan.

Again, I just cannot accept the chronological approach when you have the world judged multiple times in Revelation and the resurrected Christ in heaven in Rev 6 but being born and caught up to God in Revelation 12. To say its just a summary makes no sense to me. Clearly, the point here is that this is a new vision and a new image being displayed.

One final thing, I think the elephant in the room here is how we understand the numbers in Revelation. My view is that the numbers of Revelation are to be weighted, and not counted. The 10 days, 7 eyes, 7 horns, 7 spirits, 10 horns, 7 lampstands, 7 trumpets, 7 seals, 10,000 x 10,000, 144,000, 1,000, 666, 3.5, 42, 12, and so forth are all numbers that are highly symbolic in nature. I just dont understand the view that argues that many of the numbers in Revelation are symbolic...and clearly many of the images are symbolic....but then when it comes to certain images or numbers, that suddenly they become precise dates and timeframes that must be counted on a calendar. I believe my view is consistent. I think we all agree that Jesus doesnt have 7 eyes and 7 horns. I think we both agree that some people will not literally have the name of the Lord tattooed on their foreheads. I think we both agree that John wasnt literally counting out each and every angel and putting the precise numbers circling the throne. So why does the 1,000 years or the mark 666 and so forth have to be literal numbers or marks? I just dont understand how premillennials determine which images are symbols or spiritual realities and which are "literal" times or physical marks.