An analogy to illustrate God's sovereignty and Our free will.

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David H.

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I came across this analogy from A.W. Tozer and I think it is one worth considering, its simplicity should be something that unites and does not divide as is the case on this discussion.

An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes that He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.


Tozer Devotional | God Moves Undisturbed and Unhindered (cmalliance.org)

Thoughts?
 

Iconoclast

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I came across this analogy from A.W. Tozer and I think it is one worth considering, its simplicity should be something that unites and does not divide as is the case on this discussion.

An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes that He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.


Tozer Devotional | God Moves Undisturbed and Unhindered (cmalliance.org)

Thoughts?
1689 cof.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

Psalm148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
 
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prism

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I came across this analogy from A.W. Tozer and I think it is one worth considering, its simplicity should be something that unites and does not divide as is the case on this discussion.

An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes that He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.


Tozer Devotional | God Moves Undisturbed and Unhindered (cmalliance.org)

Thoughts?
Here is one I heard years ago that helped me greatly through my struggle at grasping the two.

A hiker is traveling through the forest and comes to a fork in the road with two arches over each path.
Upon deliberating which path he decides (man's choice) to take the path that leads him uphill. After passing under the arch, he turns around and lloks up and reads "FOREORDAINED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD".
 
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David H.

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1689 cof.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

Psalm148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

You Quote the 1689 Baptist confession, Point being...?

We are saved by faith alone through grace alone.....
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
It does not say "faith cometh by grace", neither does it say "faith cometh by faith." But that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Hearing is the Key. Some have ears and some do not. Some have their ears opened some have them closed, some have them opened by their own choice and some are granted the ability to hear. What matters is not how we get on the boat, But rather that we are ALL on the right boat.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2)

Jesus is the LORD!
 

Curtis

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I came across this analogy from A.W. Tozer and I think it is one worth considering, its simplicity should be something that unites and does not divide as is the case on this discussion.

An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes that He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.


Tozer Devotional | God Moves Undisturbed and Unhindered (cmalliance.org)

Thoughts?
Except that’s not how reformed theology and Calvinism works.

In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates them and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.

But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world, thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.

Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell - since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost - and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily, “having done neither good or bad”, solely because the God of Calvinism felt like making them “vessels fitted only for destruction” - and according to the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, God also hates the non elect.

Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods character and nature.
 

Stumpmaster

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Except that’s not how reformed theology and Calvinism works.

In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates them and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.

But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world, thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.

Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell - since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost - and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily, “having done neither good or bad”, solely because the God of Calvinism felt like making them “vessels fitted only for destruction” - and according to the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, God also hates the non elect.

Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods character and nature.
Well said Curtis.
Predestined or Predetermined Reprobation
is the notion that whomever commits evil and refuses the Gospel to the end does so because God has predetermined this and nothing can change His decision to deny them any choice in the matter.

Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharaoh opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananias and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.

I get the impression James didn't subscribe to Predetermined Reprobation.
Jas 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted/implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
 
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Iconoclast

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You Quote the 1689 Baptist confession, Point being...?

We are saved by faith alone through grace alone.....
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
It does not say "faith cometh by grace", neither does it say "faith cometh by faith." But that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Hearing is the Key. Some have ears and some do not. Some have their ears opened some have them closed, some have them opened by their own choice and some are granted the ability to hear. What matters is not how we get on the boat, But rather that we are ALL on the right boat.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2)

Jesus is the LORD!
Hello David the confession of faith is used because it says the most that it could say in the least amount of words and it's pretty thorough and answer to the OP.
Noticing the fine lists of verses that you offered, faith is the instrumentality not the cause.
It is always by or through faith....never BECAUSE of faith. Saving faith is not found in the sinner unless granted by God.
Repentance and faith are part of the gift of salvation.
 

Iconoclast

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Except that’s not how reformed theology and Calvinism works.

In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates them and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.

But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world, thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.

Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell - since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost - and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily, “having done neither good or bad”, solely because the God of Calvinism felt like making them “vessels fitted only for destruction” - and according to the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, God also hates the non elect.

Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods character and nature.
Hello Curtis your post unfortunately has many errors strawmen and caricatures and if you'd like I'd show them to you but sometimes I find that some people just like to attack a position without any backing or any scriptural backing so if you wouldn't stump master would like answers let me know
 

Stumpmaster

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Hello Curtis your post unfortunately has many errors strawmen and caricatures and if you'd like I'd show them to you but sometimes I find that some people just like to attack a position without any backing or any scriptural backing so if you wouldn't stump master would like answers let me know
Coherency doesn't attend your post, Iconoclast.
The iconic Calvinist defence is that their critics have no Scriptural backing, and yet they do.
 

Iconoclast

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Coherency doesn't attend your post, Iconoclast.
The iconic Calvinist defence is that their critics have no Scriptural backing, and yet they do.
If you feel something is posted in error, by all means offer your correction.
In a little while I will clarify what I saw as misreading and lack of understanding
 

Curtis

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Well said Curtis.
Predestined or Predetermined Reprobation
is the notion that whomever commits evil and refuses the Gospel to the end does so because God has predetermined this and nothing can change His decision to deny them any choice in the matter.

Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharoah opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananais and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.

I get the impression James didn't subscribe to Predetermined Reprobation.
Jas 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted/implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Calvinism’s bottom line is also backwards.

In deformed dogma, regeneration has to precede grace, so they have regeneration/salvation coming before grace/faith, which is absolutely backwards.

In scripture faith
You Quote the 1689 Baptist confession, Point being...?

We are saved by faith alone through grace alone.....
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
It does not say "faith cometh by grace", neither does it say "faith cometh by faith." But that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Hearing is the Key. Some have ears and some do not. Some have their ears opened some have them closed, some have them opened by their own choice and some are granted the ability to hear. What matters is not how we get on the boat, But rather that we are ALL on the right boat.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2)

Jesus is the LORD!

Stephen made it clear that the reason Gods own elect nation of Israel killed all the prophets, then killed their Messiah who came originally for them only, is because they always resisted the Holy Spirit.

(Then they killed Stephen too, to prove it)

Faith comes by hearing the word, Romans 10:17, but the Holy Spirit who draws us is resistible.

Those two facts falsify Calvinist election dogma.

Calvinism: faith comes to the elect only, by regeneration first, then being made spiritually alive.

Scripture: faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Calvinism: grace is irresistible.

Scripture: grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.

Maranatha
 

Stumpmaster

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Where is free will referred to in the Bible?
Hi QuickFilly
Adam and Eve's disobedience to God's instruction is a good example, and here's another. The Bible is full of such examples.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
 

Iconoclast

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"Curtis,

[Except that’s not how reformed theology and Calvinism works.]

You do not have a correct understanding.


[In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates them and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.]

Regeneration and belief happen at one point in time.Dead men need life to believe.
eph2:1-4


[But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world,]

There is no scripture that says this.You are misusing the term predestination;
Here is a confessional statement of what the actual teaching is;
1689
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____
As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.


[thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.]

Nothing says God is obligated to save anyone. Do not blame God for man's sin.

[Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell- since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost ]

Actually, there will be a multitude saved that no man can number.

Sorry to confuse you with Scripture but it says this;
gen.13
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

So now, you blame God for man's sin and doubt these clear declarations?

[- and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily],
The biblical God does nothing "arbitrarily"...perhaps you should study the attributes of God before you carry on with these unfortunate posts.

isa46;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods character and nature]

You have issues with God Himself, not Calvinism
 

Iconoclast

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Stumpmaster,

[Well said Curtis.
Predestined or Predetermined Reprobation is the notion that whomever commits evil and refuses the Gospel to the end does so because God has predetermined this and nothing can change His decision to deny them any choice in the matter.]

What an evil thing to blame God for man's sin. God is not and can never be the Author of sin
Deut32:

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Men sin because they love darkness and not light;
jn1:
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

jn3:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.



[Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharoah opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananais and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.]
Another blame God for man's sin post
 

Iconoclast

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What people believe or do not believe should be based on the actual teaching, not strawmen.
 

Stumpmaster

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Stumpmaster,

[Well said Curtis.
Predestined or Predetermined Reprobation is the notion that whomever commits evil and refuses the Gospel to the end does so because God has predetermined this and nothing can change His decision to deny them any choice in the matter.]

What an evil thing to blame God for man's sin. God is not and can never be the Author of sin
Deut32:

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Men sin because they love darkness and not light;
jn1:
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

jn3:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.



[Satan and his cohort, Adam and Eve in Eden, Cain, Esau, Pharoah opposing Moses in Egypt, Judas, Ananais and Saphira, and anyone who stubbornly resists the grace of God do become subject to predetermined consequences, but their urge to sin doesn't come from God.]
Another blame God for man's sin post
Funny, it's actually a main plank of Calvinism that reprobates remain lost and dead in their sins because God denies them the benefit of faith, repentance and salvation.

Get a grip!
 
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Stumpmaster

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Not once..man has self will but it is not free.
You are free to believe that, and post it, but that doesn't mean it is an absolute truth.

Some things are predetermined and predestined and no-one starts their life by volunteering to exist.
However, God has predetermined that in the course of our existence we will be free to choose from the options before us.
God is able to intervene at any time, a fact that shows mankind does have freedom to make choices and that He decides whether to let them stand or overrule them. (Think Saul of Tarsus being diverted from persecutor to apostle)

Deu 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (20) that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."
 
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