An interesting question.......

[Willie T]

........ that I ran across in some study:

The postmillennialist insists that Jesus' ascension to the throne of God is the transcendent mark of His absolute sovereignty over history. The postmillennialist argues that Jesus will not leave this throne to return to earth until all His enemies are subdued (1 Cor. 15:24-28). But supernatural postmillennialism has not been taken seriously in the twentieth century. Today, theonomic postmillennialism raises two very divisive issues: (1) personal and corporate responsibility; (2) legitimate avoidance thereof. To take this eschatology seriously raises questions regarding the Church's responsibility for the transformation of culture. This raises even more questions regarding the level of personal responsibility in the lives of Christians. Christians today fear what the answers might be. So, they prefer to avoid considering the biblical case for theonomic postmillennialism.


The standard response to covenantal (theonomic) postmillennialism is to argue that the world cannot improve ethically until Jesus comes again to rule with a rod of iron. But why should this be the case? How strong is Satan's rod in New Covenant history? I know of no premillennialist who argues that Satan must sit on an earthly throne in order for his kingdom to be manifested in history. They all understand that Satan's kingdom is manifested representatively through his human disciples.


Yet they all insist that for Christ's kingdom to be "truly" manifested in history, Jesus Christ must return bodily from heaven to sit on an earthly throne, probably in Jerusalem. Question: Why does the Son of God need to be bodily present in order to enable His human servants to rule effectively in history, when the human servants of the devil, who was defeated definitively at Calvary, have no problem whatsoever in ruling over Christ's representatives in history? To put it starkly, why has the sending of the Holy Spirit left Christianity culturally impotent in history?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why does the Son of God need to be bodily present in order to enable His human servants to rule effectively in history, when the human servants of the devil, who was defeated definitively at Calvary, have no problem whatsoever in ruling over Christ's representatives in history? To put it starkly, why has the sending of the Holy Spirit left Christianity culturally impotent in history?

Willie T, You asked for input so that is what this is: an opinion. It is an opinion I cannot even attempt to prove but the opinion was formed by the Word of God. Great questions though:

Why does the Son of God need to be bodily present in order to enable His human servants to rule effectively in history, when the human servants of the devil, who was defeated definitively at Calvary, have no problem whatsoever in ruling over Christ's representatives in history? The Son of God doesn't need to be bodily present in order to enable His human servants to rule. He is bodily present in His body(us) and we are ruled by the Head which is Christ. This is God's will. You made an excellent point: Satan, the head of his body (the sons of perdition), has no problem ruling over Christ's representatives in history. Why?

To put it starkly, why has the sending of the Holy Spirit left Christianity culturally impotent in history? His body of believers is not impotent. The time for (Romans 8: 18-19) is not yet "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."

Would you call the cross "impotent" when they mocked for Him to come down and save Himself? No, a great power of God was at work even though to the bare-eyes it appeared God was being defeated. Same as with His body: it may appear so but we are not being defeated. God has not loss control of anything (not implying you said He has) but God is performing that which He said He would do: Save. Why are the representatives of Christ in history trodden by the enemy? To break the yoke off the neck of sinners; a brother. To overcome love and affection toward the world. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." (John 8:36) As a testimony of those that love not their life even unto death. It has to be seen that those that are slaves to the world and to darkness are in bondage still. God breaks those yokes of bondage so they are able to pick up His yoke which is light. This is what we want, right? More coming to the knowledge of Him.

Hebrews 5:8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;

 

[bbyrd009]

Why does the Son of God need to be bodily present in order to enable His human servants to rule effectively in history

um, to rule what effectively, sorry

 

[Willie T]

um, to rule what effectively, sorry

Well, for one small part of it, to rule this country as every leader from George to Donald "should" lead us. I know many people try to make a case for the Israelites screwing things up by asking for a king. But, we have always had a leader (a human being) since the beginning. And as God set it up, "many" of them, in a pretty vast hierarchal system of courts. Even the Council of James and others at Jerusalem sent rules with Paul back to the Gentiles as to how they were to conduct themselves.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, for one small part of it, to rule this country as every leader from George to Donald "should" lead us.

the world is passing away though Willie

 

[Willie T]

the world is passing away though Willie

It's lived a bit longer than you or me, and will be here long after we are gone. So, why does it not still need Godly leadership for our descendants?

 

[bbyrd009]

It's lived a bit longer than you or me, and will be here long after we are gone. So, why does it not still need Godly leadership for our descendants?

i would say bc leave the world

 

[Windmillcharge]

why has the sending of the Holy Spirit left Christianity culturally impotent in history?

It hasn't. Every social advance and every scientific advance that has affected the worlds population can be linked to the influence of Christianity.

There is no other set of ideas has had so much influence on how the worlds population sees things or does things.

Look up the article, 'The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy,' for an indepth analasis of how Christianity has influenced society.

Otherwise look for the atheist equivelent of Shaftsbury, Wilberforce, Carey,or any Christian who has changed socety for the better.

 

[Willie T]

It hasn't. Every social advance and every scientific advance that has affected the worlds population can be linked to the influence of Christianity.

There is no other set of ideas has had so much influence on how the worlds population sees things or does things.

Look up the article, 'The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy,' for an indepth analasis of how Christianity has influenced society.

Otherwise look for the atheist equivelent of Shaftsbury, Wilberforce, Carey,or any Christian who has changed socety for the better.

It sounds good, but we know it isn't true. We can't, on the one hand, state something like this.... then turn right around and deride the scientific community as mostly not believing in God... or talk about the thousands of Godless professors in our colleges. Someone is peddling BS.... and some of us are buying it.

 

[ScottA]

........ that I ran across in some study:

The postmillennialist insists that Jesus' ascension to the throne of God is the transcendent mark of His absolute sovereignty over history. The postmillennialist argues that Jesus will not leave this throne to return to earth until all His enemies are subdued (1 Cor. 15:24-28). But supernatural postmillennialism has not been taken seriously in the twentieth century. Today, theonomic postmillennialism raises two very divisive issues: (1) personal and corporate responsibility; (2) legitimate avoidance thereof. To take this eschatology seriously raises questions regarding the Church's responsibility for the transformation of culture. This raises even more questions regarding the level of personal responsibility in the lives of Christians. Christians today fear what the answers might be. So, they prefer to avoid considering the biblical case for theonomic postmillennialism.


The standard response to covenantal (theonomic) postmillennialism is to argue that the world cannot improve ethically until Jesus comes again to rule with a rod of iron. But why should this be the case? How strong is Satan's rod in New Covenant history? I know of no premillennialist who argues that Satan must sit on an earthly throne in order for his kingdom to be manifested in history. They all understand that Satan's kingdom is manifested representatively through his human disciples.


Yet they all insist that for Christ's kingdom to be "truly" manifested in history, Jesus Christ must return bodily from heaven to sit on an earthly throne, probably in Jerusalem. Question: Why does the Son of God need to be bodily present in order to enable His human servants to rule effectively in history, when the human servants of the devil, who was defeated definitively at Calvary, have no problem whatsoever in ruling over Christ's representatives in history? To put it starkly, why has the sending of the Holy Spirit left Christianity culturally impotent in history?

Very well stated.

The answer is... He does not ("need to be bodily present" in the way that it is commonly understood). Nonetheless, He [is] bodily present - in His body (the church).

 

[Helen]

Amen ...Good one @ScottA
Interesting thread...interesting posts .

 

[ScottA]

It sounds good, but we know it isn't true. We can't, on the one hand, state something like this.... then turn right around and deride the scientific community as mostly not believing in God... or talk about the thousands of Godless professors in our colleges. Someone is peddling BS.... and some of us are buying it.

There is another reason for this falling away: There is a bodily exodus day by day, leaving the world to those who perish.

 

[Willie T]

I think some of you may be missing the point of the question posed.

The study was of eschatology, and the way that most Christians say that there is no hope for Christian leadership of this world because Satan controls it and the world is destined to fall into depravity until Jesus comes back to establish an Earthly kingdom in Jerusalem. They say then, and only then, when Jesus "rules with a rod of iron", will any semblance of Christian government be seen in this world.

The question was: "Why do we have to wait until Jesus comes, when Satan can, and does, rule this world without ever actually being here or setting up a headquarters in any city of Earth......... but some say God has to first have that.

 

[Willie T]

There is another reason for this falling away: There is a bodily exodus day by day, leaving the world to those who perish.

Would you mind elaborating on that a bit more? Didn't God say all that He created was good, and that this world was ours to care for?

 

[Helen]

The question was: "Why do we have to wait until Jesus comes, when Satan can, and does, rule this world without ever actually being here or setting up a headquarters in any city of Earth......... but some say God has to first have that.

Well, obviously the "some say" have got it all wrong.
We don't 'have to' wait...

 

[Willie T]

Well, obviously the "some say" have got it all wrong.
We don't 'have to' wait...

Careful, now. I happen believe that way, but such optimistic thinking runs contra to the belief of almost all Christians. Most say our only hope is to be rescued (raptured) out of a world Satan almost completely rules......... and that we are powerless to change that world with God's gospel.

 

[Helen]

Careful, now. I happen believe that way, but such optimistic thinking runs contra to the belief of almost all Christians. Most say our only hope is to be rescued (raptured) out of a world Satan almost completely rules......... and that we are powerless to change that world with God's gospel.

So, there we go with " the some" again.
I believe a great some/sum will have a shock when they find out that after all the cooing , assuring words...they will actually still be here with feet on the earth ...no rapture or flying away...but a catching-up into the Authority of Jesus Christ our Lord in power, as one body, one army ready to fight in the Spirit with our Divine leader.

Bless you ...Helen

 

[Philip James]

Some might argue that Christ did rule the nationswith a rod of iron under Christendom... But that the 1000 years is over and Satan has once more been released to deceive the nations...

The time is short... Return to CHRIST and His Church...

You too are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb... Enter in before the gates of the banquet hall are closed...

 

[Willie T]

Some might argue that Christ did rule the nationswith a rod of iron under Christendom... But that the 1000 years is over and Satan has once more been released to deceive the nations...

The time is short... Return to CHRIST and His Church...

You too are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb... Enter in before the gates of the banquet hall are closed...

Huh?

 

[mjrhealth]

I think some of you may be missing the point of the question posed.

The study was of eschatology, and the way that most Christians say that there is no hope for Christian leadership of this world because Satan controls it and the world is destined to fall into depravity until Jesus comes back to establish an Earthly kingdom in Jerusalem. They say then, and only then, when Jesus "rules with a rod of iron", will any semblance of Christian government be seen in this world.

The question was: "Why do we have to wait until Jesus comes, when Satan can. and does, rule this world without ever actually being here or setting up a headquarters in any city of Earth......... but some say God has to first have that.

We where never meant to have men "rule" over us, we where always supposed to walk in "Love". Having hierarchies does nothing but make slaves of men, always has, always will. That is why Jesus said,

Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

see they all wanted position, Jesus gave them none.