An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

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Lapidem

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I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss
 

Angelina

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Since we are not omniscent, it would be possible for us to make anyone of those 3 choices. This does not mean that we do not have a free will. It just means that God would know what decision we will make. For instance. If I was presented with the gospel of salvation. (a) I can choose to accept it as the truth and recieve Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. (b). I could also reject it or (c). I decide that I have time so I may do this down the road sometime because I am enjoying my life right now.

We know that the last two have conscequences however, as humans, we would not understand those consequences fully (b). there is a heaven and there is a hell. (c) we could die tomorrow and our acceptance of Jesus as a choice would be gone.
 

Lapidem

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Since we are not omniscent, it would be possible for us to make anyone of those 3 choices. This does not mean that we do not have a free will.

If God knows that you will choose option A in advance of that choice then very clearly you can not choose option B or C. If you did then God would be proven fallible, not perfect, not omniscient.

It really doesn't matter much how or why God can determine our choices in advance, the problem it gives us is that what we think are choices, can not be choices because the outcome is already determined, because God knows the result already. This is Predeterminism. No free will.
 

Lapidem

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God didnt create robots to fellowship with him. Where is the joy in that?

Define "robot". I'd say that a constructed being that has no real free will and is constrained in an environment is pretty much a robot.
 

jeffweeder

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Define "robot". I'd say that a constructed being that has no real free will and is constrained in an environment is pretty much a robot.
What would be the point of God creating a robot? Pointless exercise for such a creative God. He told them what would kill them, so they had a choice. They chose badly.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss

This doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m thinking I shouldn’t even answer but keeping my mouth shut is not my strong suit.
It makes no sense to me to say if God knows what choice someone will choose to make it necessarily means they did not make a choice.
This is laziness of mind.
 
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Lapidem

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This doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m thinking I shouldn’t even answer but keeping my mouth shut is not my strong suit.
It makes no sense to me to say if God knows what choice someone will choose to make it necessarily means they did not make a choice.
This is laziness of mind.

I'm afraid the logic states otherwise.

If God knows, with absolute 100% certainty that you will choose option A, rather than B or C, then very clearly it is impossible for you to pick B or C. How or why it's impossible doesn't really matter. The important fact is that if God says you're going to pick A, then you simply can not pick B or C since to do so would prove God to be fallible. The "choice" may seem like a choice to the human, but if all choices but one are impossible then it's not really a choice at all.
 

Charlie24

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I'm afraid the logic states otherwise.

If God knows, with absolute 100% certainty that you will choose option A, rather than B or C, then very clearly it is impossible for you to pick B or C. How or why it's impossible doesn't really matter. The important fact is that if God says you're going to pick A, then you simply can not pick B or C since to do so would prove God to be fallible. The "choice" may seem like a choice to the human, but if all choices but one are impossible then it's not really a choice at all.

Who is it that says this is logic? Doesn't sound like logic to me.

God knowing what we will do in no way determines what we will do.

It just means that God knows what we will do before we do it.
 

Lapidem

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God knowing what we will do in no way determines what we will do.
Of course it does.

If the result is set in stone before it happens then it is predetermined.

If God knows you will choose option A before the choice is made then do you agree that it is not possible for you to choose B or C?
 

Charlie24

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Of course it does.

If the result is set in stone before it happens then it is predetermined.

If God knows you will choose option A before the choice is made then do you agree that it is not possible for you to choose B or C?

And it was my choice that sealed the deal, regardless of the remaining options.

This sounds like one of those hair-brained so-called logic trips the Calvinist take from time to time.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I'm afraid the logic states otherwise.

If God knows, with absolute 100% certainty that you will choose option A, rather than B or C, then very clearly it is impossible for you to pick B or C. How or why it's impossible doesn't really matter. The important fact is that if God says you're going to pick A, then you simply can not pick B or C since to do so would prove God to be fallible. The "choice" may seem like a choice to the human, but if all choices but one are impossible then it's not really a choice at all.
Umm…that’s not logic you are using…it’s a logical fallacy.
If I know a choice you will make before you make it, its not logical to then say: since I knew the choice you were going to make, it therefore follows that you did not make a choice.
Its so very visibly not any use of good logic that…if you can’t see that, you must be just left to your own strange devices I guess…?
 
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Lapidem

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Umm…that’s not logic you are using…it’s a logical fallacy.
If I know a choice you will make before you make it, its not logical to then say: since I knew the choice you were going to make, it therefore follows that you did not make a choice.
Its so very visibly not any use of good logic that…if you can’t see that, you must be just left to your own strange devices I guess…?
I'm afraid that's no answer. It merely shows you can't resolve the paradigm presented and it presumably challenges your belief system.

There's a difference between YOU thinking you know what choice I will make and an Omniscient God knowing what choice will be made. The latter is supposedly infallible in which case no matter what happens, choice A is going to be made. B and C are not therefore real possibilities. There is no real choice, though quite possibly it might appear to be a choice to a human.

Humans think dice are random but of course they are not. Dice are totally predictable because their movement is governed totally by physics. Dice appear to be random to humans because we can't compute the millions of factors that are impacting their movement.
But an all-powerful God could compute it all and therefore know in advance how the dice will end up. But it does therefore mean that the dice are predetermined.
 

jeffweeder

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I'm afraid that's no answer. It merely shows you can't resolve the paradigm presented and it presumably challenges your belief system.

There's a difference between YOU thinking you know what choice I will make and an Omniscient God knowing what choice will be made. The latter is supposedly infallible in which case no matter what happens, choice A is going to be made. B and C are not therefore real possibilities. There is no real choice, though quite possibly it might appear to be a choice to a human.

Humans think dice are random but of course they are not. Dice are totally predictable because their movement is governed totally by physics. Dice appear to be random to humans because we can't compute the millions of factors that are impacting their movement.
But an all-powerful God could compute it all and therefore know in advance how the dice will end up. But it does therefore mean that the dice are predetermined.
So?
God knew what we would do and then dealt with our death in the most wonderful and unexpected way.
 

Charlie24

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I'm afraid that's no answer. It merely shows you can't resolve the paradigm presented and it presumably challenges your belief system.

There's a difference between YOU thinking you know what choice I will make and an Omniscient God knowing what choice will be made. The latter is supposedly infallible in which case no matter what happens, choice A is going to be made. B and C are not therefore real possibilities. There is no real choice, though quite possibly it might appear to be a choice to a human.

Humans think dice are random but of course they are not. Dice are totally predictable because their movement is governed totally by physics. Dice appear to be random to humans because we can't compute the millions of factors that are impacting their movement.
But an all-powerful God could compute it all and therefore know in advance how the dice will end up. But it does therefore mean that the dice are predetermined.

If God predetermines everything that happens, then He would have to be blamed for bringing sin into the world.

Did God do that? Or did He allow that? Do you see the difference?

The difference is that man has free will, and it is allowed by God.
 

Lapidem

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Yes.

It took Adam to make the same mistake as Eve before her eyes were opened to the fact.

So, Adam and Eve ate of the tree that was forbidden. But God of course knew they would eat of that tree. In fact God put the tree there in the first place knowing that if he did, Adam and Eve would eat from it. What does that make God???

As a side it's worth noting that God said to Adam that if he ate of the tree he would die.

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Yet Adam live a good many years:

Genesis 5:5
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"


Was God lying when he said Adam would die? Or was he just wrong?
 

jeffweeder

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So, Adam and Eve ate of the tree that was forbidden. But God of course knew they would eat of that tree. In fact God put the tree there in the first place knowing that if he did, Adam and Eve would eat from it. What does that make God???

As a side it's worth noting that God said to Adam that if he ate of the tree he would die.

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Yet Adam live a good many years:

Genesis 5:5
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"


Was God lying when he said Adam would die? Or was he just wrong?
He died Spiritually that day and like a cancer took its toll on the body later. They saw things very differently after Adam ate.
 
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Lapidem

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If God predetermines everything that happens, then He would have to be blamed for bringing sin into the world.
Yup

God created everything did he not? That must therefore include sin and evil. He's responsible for creating Adam the way he was, and Eve.
He must hvev known when he created them what they were going to do and he must have created them in such a way as to ensure they did it.

It's difficult to not believe that God in his infinite power is uttlerly utterly bored stiff and all this creation was little more than a goldfish bowl to amuse him for a while. Everything in that goldfish bowl is fixed by God. Everything in it affects everything else in it. Cause and effect. There can be no real free will.