Annihilation or Hurt?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Some believe that the second death is annihilation of souls in which they experience when they have a "part" in the lake of fire (see Revelation 21:8).

What do you believe considering what is said in Revelation 2:11, also what do you think about what is said in Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

What do you think about the one who holds the keys of death and Hades?
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that Jesus even has the keys to the second death?

This is all new to me personally, I believe and have hope in God having the ability to reconcile all to himself and not have on perish.

If this is the case in allowing God to have his will, to be done, this doesn’t mean that people that aren’t covered by the bloodshed of Christ will not have some type of afterlife difficulties in having a part in the Lake of Fire which is in the presence of God.

According to the early church people there was three views on afterlife punishment, one of them being Reconciling people to himself not to say these are children of God or sons or daughters of God but they go through this punishment until they break and bow (however spirit do this), and confess that Jesus is who they needed, and he lets them out.

The punishment was curative.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Don’t get me wrong believers today will skip over this scene here and be with God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not everyone is saved to the kingdom of God though, as mentioned previously,

However the Lord desires none to perish, and if they have a part in that lake of fire and Jesus let’s them out because he has the keys to it. That is perhaps where John wrote there are those outside the gate, because they aren’t able to reign with God after this life, but God doesn’t lost anyone at all.

It makes great sense that God wins, though in this life now today we are saved to the kingdom of heaven as long as we suffer for Christ and obey his teachings and have faith in Him, as he is our righteousness to be made right with God.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe Jesus has the keys to all death?

Ask that to yourself and don’t disregard the book of revelation.

God bless.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why are you so hung up on the idea of every single person being saved?

The Bible doesn't even come close to making that case at all.

There are certain people in this world who have no business whatsoever being in heaven with God and all the holiest creatures that have ever existed.

You do know there is a narrow road and a wide road, right? That means that there will me masses of people who don't go to heaven.

That's the way God wants it. Do you realize that?

He might say He'd rather nobody be lost, but He is crystal clear that He hates wickedness and sinners live their entire lives disgracing, dishonoring and disrespecting everything that God IS and everything that He loves.

Sorry, but those people don't belong in heaven. And you can rest assured they will NOT be there.
 
Last edited:

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you would like to share your insights on the question on the first post please feel free to see what you have to say about the scriptures that would appropriate due to the nature of this thread desiring to see if anyone else may have any insights to share, thank you Gen2Rev.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Some believe that the second death is annihilation of souls in which they experience when they have a "part" in the lake of fire (see Revelation 21:8).
Well, first I would have to say 'What do YOU think of Revelation 2:11?' Seeing as how you are OSAS, and also believe that all people will be resurrected, it seems like a bit of a challenge to your beliefs.

Only the one who is victorious will not be part of the second death. Does that not seem to you like a condition? Doesn't that seem like something that must be accomplished?

It sure does to me.

As far as Revelation 21:7-8, That passage begins with "He that overcomes ...". Again, doesn't that seem to you like a condition? Does it not sound like something that must be accomplished?
What do you think about the one who holds the keys of death and Hades?
I believe it is Jesus Christ.

I don't believe He will let people out of the Second Death with the keys. No.

It is those who are victorious THROUGH HIM, through following HIS WAYS that will be freed from that outcome. That is what the keys are for.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Firstly I’m not a believer in the once saved always saved doctrine, people can lose faith, and even leave faith.

I agree with you on those who have faith and will be able to not see the second death and be harmed from it.

Thank you for sharing that you do not believe that Jesus has the keys to the second death.

It is interesting that those who have “part” in the second death in the lake of fire that is said to be in front of the Lord and his angels are not completely obliterated in my opinion, but do seem to have some time of spiritual after life loss, going through the baptism of fire, seems like a curative thing to me, and it is sad people will face this but, consider Jesus has the keys to death he is able to let them out.
 
Last edited:

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My apologies I read wrong, you don’t believe he will let anyone out. Thank you for sharing with me Gen2Rev.

If anyone else would like to share their thoughts please feel free too share any insights you may have.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If anyone else would like to share their thoughts please feel free too share any insights you may have.
No, Matt. No.

There is nobody else. It's just you and me.

Nobody else is reading this thread. Now answer the question, please.

Why are you hung up on every single person being saved?
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sure there is others who come by and read.

I’m against traditions that say God doesn’t get his Will done, somehow someway.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sure there is others who come by and read.

I’m against traditions that say God doesn’t get his Will done, somehow someway.
God's will is that 'all that He sends to Jesus' will be saved.

Not that every single human being that has ever lived go to heaven. That contradicts Scripture in so many ways I don't even know where to begin.

Yes, on its face, the verse appears to say that God desires every single man to be saved, but when you consider Scripture as a whole, it's impossible that He's saying that.

I'm sorry you're passionately holding onto an idea that is not even possible within the Bible. It doesn't even make any sense. Think about it: Can you imagine every single person alive today going to heaven? Heaven would be awfully dark if so.

And if you imagine that God will transform everyone to be righteous or deeply caring, when they are not, then He'd be taking away their will. He'd be creating robots. That's not how it works, and I can promise you that's not what He wants. He wants us to PROVE to Him how much we love Him with a life dedicated to Truth, righteousness, obedience and selflessness.

Doesn't that make sense? No, of course not.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My apologies you disagree with God being able to get his Will done and have no to perish, or lose any.

What I am promoting, is that God is able to get Will done, even though those who go through the Lake of Fire to come to be able to confess the Lord Jesus Christ which is only able to be done when the one chooses to do it, however long that takes is for the individual soul to decide, sir.

Im not into God losing any but all coming to confess even if they will not reign with God but have a place outside of the Kingdom for their own choice of rejecting Christ here in this life…

It makes no difference if you disagree with me or not, sir.

You and me are both responsible for what we do with our lives, in accordance with our Father looking our for us in this life if we allow him to work with us.

When confronted with the question about Age during punishment I’m able to give an adequate response atleast in accordance to Gods ultimate will without dumbing down to annilhation (I can never spell that word right).
 
Last edited:

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:10-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe Jesus has the keys to all death?

Ask that to yourself and don’t disregard the book of revelation.

God bless.
I don’t know says here every knee will bow and every tongue confess.


Philippians 2:9-11 KJV
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
3,809
1,855
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Some believe that the second death is annihilation of souls in which they experience when they have a "part" in the lake of fire (see Revelation 21:8).

What do you believe considering what is said in Revelation 2:11, also what do you think about what is said in Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

What do you think about the one who holds the keys of death and Hades?

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28
Destroy means to put an end to. Some time may be involved, but you can't destroy something for eternity. You wouldn't be putting an end to it. It would be an indestructible destruction or an imperishable perishing which is a contradiction.
Even an eternal punishment doesn't make sense. To punish is to correct. What correction can there be in an eternal torture chamber? Your state never improves, no relief can be hoped for, no change. And such a penalty for a short life of sinning is quite severely exteme and not fair judgment. His judgments in history have always been fair, proportionate to the crime committed and were always temporal.
And how does this concept of eternal punishment glorify God? Those in heaven cannot be aware of this, since that would cause sadness. So He would have to remove this knowledge of such a place from everyone's awareness, whereby only He knows. He is everywhere, so again how does He sustain such suffering and joy simultaneously? Would Jesus love us in heaven and at the same time turn and hate those in Hell. I don't know how much more you can hate someone then ti sustain a persons sufferring. Why would He want this eternal sufferring, which would grieve Him, sadden Him, a merciful God who is made of pure love ... oops, we would have to redefine or remove that quality _ His mercy _ and replace it with sustained wrath and vengience, apathy? No I think He will destroy them quickly and that will be that, and the Bible does say there will be no more pain and that should mean anywhere.
I believe judgment is quick in the Lake of Fire. As paper burns, so does flesh. How long does it take? Seconds or minutes at most. How hot is a lava lake? Gollum can tell you ... oops, no he can't.
A key word to examine is the word for eternity, (aionios), which actually has variable meanings. When applied to temporal reality it means ages, generations, lifetimes, etc. When applied to God it means an existence without beginning and without end. And when applied to heaven and our salavtion it means without end.
If "all former things pass away", including death and Hades and they are destroyed in the Lake of Fire, that means they will no longer exist.
Hades is a place where the ungodly dead souls go and suffer in darkness, torment and await for their final judgment, which to me will be merciful, annihilation. Why sustain evil? God and our never ending existence in the new heaven on earth will experience nothing but pure love, peace and joy. All former things will pass away. I think the Lake of Fire is more of a temporal event that will dissolve/burn the first earth and heavens (universe) in anfervent heat..
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10
 
Last edited:

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Some believe that the second death is annihilation of souls in which they experience when they have a "part" in the lake of fire (see Revelation 21:8).

What do you believe considering what is said in Revelation 2:11, also what do you think about what is said in Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

What do you think about the one who holds the keys of death and Hades?

I think it might be wise to obey him Matt, as it is quite clear a persons eternal welfare is in his hands.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28
Destroy means to put an end to. Some time may be involved, but you can't destroy something for eternity. You wouldn't be putting an end to it. It would be an indestructible destruction or an imperishable perishing which is a contradiction.
Even an eternal punishment doesn't make sense. To punish is to correct. What correction can there be in an eternal torture chamber? Your state never improves, no relief can be hoped for, no change. And such a penalty for a short life of sinning is quite severe. His judgments in history have always been fair, proportionate to the crime committed but were always temporal.
And how does this concept of eternal punishment glorify God? Those in heaven cannot be aware of this, since that would cause sadness. So He would have to remove this knowledge of such a place from everyone's awareness, whereby only He knows. He is everywhere, so again how does He sustain such suffering? Why would He want this eternal sufferring, which would grieve Him, sadden Him, a merciful God who is made of pure love ... oops, we will have to redefine or remove that quality _His mercy _ and replace it with sustained wrath and vengience, apathy? No I think He will destroy them quickly and fhat will be that, and the Bible does say there will be no more pain and that should mean anywhere.
I believe judgment is quick in the Lake of Fire. As paper burns, so does flesh. How long does it take? Seconds or minutes at most. How hot is a lava lake? Gollum can tell you ... oops, no he can't.
A key wird to examine is the word for eternity, (aionios), which actually has variable meanings. When applied to temporal reality it means ages, generations, lifetimes, etc. When applied to God it means an existence without beginning and without end. And when applied to heaven and our salavtion it means without end.
If "all former things pass away", including death and Hades and they are destroyed in the Lake of Fire, that means they will no longer exist.
Hades is a place where the ungodly dead souls go and suffer in darkness, torment and await for their final judgment, which to me will be merciful, annihilation. Why sustain evil? God and our never ending existence in the new heaven on earth will experience nothing but pure love, peace and joy. All former things will pass away. I think the Lake of Fire is more of a temporal event that will dissolve/burn the first earth and heavens (universe) in anfervent heat..
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10

Read everything you said, interesting perspective.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,099
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Robert thank you for sharing.

I don’t know says here every knee will bow and every tongue confess.


Philippians 2:9-11 KJV
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is something that is so good, and it gives me hope. Somewhere the scripture says believes all things and hopes all things, this is in my heart of hope, for Gods will to be done.

to all,
I understand that this just a topic, it is a topic that is perplexing and it begs for people to consider what they have naturally been taught from other people and consider what Gods will is, and his good pleasure it. It does sound horrifying for a person to have to face the LAKE OF FIRE in front of the Lord and his Angels, however it is for a purpose of curing, and bringing about the spiritual deadness of the person to life.

All people will be resurrected, to contempt/judgment and some to life.

There is a purpose in these things, and as believers we know we don’t have to worry about this but if your ever asked about the question what will you say?

“they burn and are tortured forever because this is Gods good will”?

One has to question themselves about it and it is a very small subject but something needs to be considered about even if people disagree with one May share it is between you and God and your heart of the matter that matters, to God. To me people can believe what they want, but May the truth win out.