Apostasy

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RichardBurger

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Apostasy:This writing is offered as a study of Apostasy and is to be considered the view of the writer, me. If it offends any I am sorry, but just as I give others the right to believe and write as they see it I claim that same right for myself. This writing is not a claim, by me, that I know everything. It is my effort to try and understand the truth.Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasyThis is the background of Christ's instruction to Gentiles (through Paul) during the dispensation of grace (that's us):1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me [Paul], as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon...1 Cor 4:14-16 For I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [the Kingdom Gospel? No, the Grace Gospel? Yes.] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers [of whom? All the apostles? No...] of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.1 Cor 11:1-2 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as [who? Peter? John? James? No...] I delivered them to you.Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given [to who? All the apostles equally? No...] to me for you...Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and observe them which walk according to the pattern you have in us...Phil 4:9 Those things which you have learned and received and heard and seen [in who? the circumcision apostles? No...] in me, practice these things, and the God of peace shall be with you.Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [Gr. pleroo, complete] the word of God;2 Tim 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.Finally...2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.***Looking at the record of history...did "faithful men" continue Paul's teaching? ------ Judge for yourself after examining the doctrines that cropped up soon after the apostolic era.THE LORD'S SUPPERThree of the "church fathers" --Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus--said the Lord’s Supper had some positive mystical influence on your spirit and physical body when you ate it. Ignatius went as far as to call the bread “The medicine of immortality and the antidote that we should not die but have life forever in Jesus Christ.” These folks weren’t into transubstantiation as we know it, but they had an early form of it (more like consubstantiation). QUESTION: Is that what Paul taught? Paul clearly taught that it’s a memorial (1 Cor 11:23-26)...an important, solemn memorial, yes, but it’s still just bread and wine with no mention of any mystical presence of the Lord. So who was right -- these early church "fathers," or Paul?SALVATION, SUFFERING AND PERSERVERENCEIgnatius longed for animals to tear him to bits because he seemed to have believed that suffering and martyrdom would prove his Christianity and ensure his salvation. He seems to have exhibited an attitude of "I must endure to the end to be saved." While Kingdom saints had to believe such dreadful truths (Matt. 24:13), Paul never did.THE MYSTERYDid Ignatius really have a grasp on the Mystery? He knew that the body of professing believers was comprised of Jews and Gentiles, but that was a fact clearly evident even to unbelievers. As to Paul's Mystery, he saw it as something else entirely:"Ye are associates in the mysteries with Paul, who was sanctified, who obtained a good report, who is worthy of all felicitation..." (Eph. 12)That's as close as can be found that Ignatius got to mentioning Paul's mystery revelation. But he did go into detail on this:"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord---three mysteries to be cried aloud--which were wrought in the silence of God." (Eph. 19)Ignatius did not have a clue regarding the Pauline revelation, judging by what he wrote. Yet he considered the virgin birth and the death of Messiah to have been hidden from Satan. But they weren’t hidden, for both were prophesied in the O.T. What WAS hidden from Satan (and from the whole world) was the full scope of the Cross (1 Cor 2:6-8), which was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul as part of the Mystery. Timothy knew it. Titus knew it. The Ephesians knew it. But Ignatius appears to never have understood it. That scope being that through the atonement work of the cross mankind can be saved by the grace of God based on faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross to pay for their sins.WATER BAPTISMThis early doctrinal slide is most grossly evident when one examines these writer's opinions of water baptism. Ignatius wrote:"It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid." (Smy. 8)"Let your baptism abide with you as your shield... (Poly. 6). Elsewhere he said, "...as your arm..."What Ignatius meant by "shield" is clear - it's a reference to defense, possibly spiritual armor. However, Paul gave water baptism no such significance. Ignatius is paving the way for a ritualistic, salvational approach to baptism [i.e., Rome's] which is with us to this day, especially when he says only the bishop can perform it or approve of it.Justin also said that one could believe but wasn’t actually saved until he/she was dunked. That’s a form of baptismal regeneration, from as early as 150 A.D. (some say they used the terms “baptism” and “regeneration” interchangeably). But did Paul EVER teach this? No! These Gentile philosophers sound far more familiar with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 than with Eph 4:5.NOTE: The point of this post is that all this doctrinal confusion happened within ONE GENERATION of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles and dispenser of the mystery. Not 100 years after his death, gross doctrinal distortion had already set in and the Church believed, and practicing a mix of two dispensations, as well as things not even found in the Bible. One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.2 Tim 1:1515 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.(NKJ)Richard
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manichunter

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I have seen some prejudice and mean spirited writings as well. I have not commented on it. However, they have come off as hating Jews to me.
 

RichardBurger

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I have seen some prejudice and mean spirited writings as well. I have not commented on it. However, they have come off as hating Jews to me.
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege and risk everything for truth. The devil is tough. Edification is essential. Messages have to be hard. Take no offense. Now off to the hunt to destroy the works of the devil!I really like that! So let us destroy one of them.James 1:11 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJVThe above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.James 1:11 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad and to the Gentiles: Greetings. TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well.Which way is correct, the Holy Spirit’s way or man’s way?Richard
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Christina

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Where is your Berean spirit. Challege and risk everything for truth. The devil is tough. Edification is essential. Messages have to be hard. Take no offense. Now off to the hunt to destroy the works of the devil!I really like that! So let us destroy one of them.James 1:11 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJVThe above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.James 1:11 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad and to the Gentiles: Greetings. TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well.Which way is correct, the Holy Spirit’s way or man’s way?Richard
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If one knows who the twevle tribes really are and who the whole house of Israel is both these verse are correct James is written to us.
 

jtartar

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IS THE CHURCH (spiritual) ISRAEL?I don't think so. James is not written to us.http://letusreason.org/7thAd5.htmRichard:)
RichardBurger, The church, The Congregation of God, is spiritual Israel!! This question brings up much unformation. unless you possess praecognita it is pretty difficult to explain this precept, with few words. First you must understand that the Mosaic Law Covenant was an interim, a de bene esse, covenant, meaning it was only for a period of time, until the coming of the Messiah, Christ, who turned out to be Jesus, John 1:29, Jere 31:31-34. The Mosaic Law Covenant went obsolete at the death of Jesus, Heb 8:13, Col 2:13,14. Jesus died to take away the Mosaic Law Covenant because no one could obey it perfectly, so it condemned all under it to death, Rom 7:4-6, Gal 3:10-14, 5:3,4, Acts 13:38,39, 15:10,11, Rom 6:23. Aftert the death of Jesus, Christians became under The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:14-20, Heb 8:6-13. The Jews, who were God's chosen people, since 1513, had rejected Jesus as the Christ. Because of rejecting Jesus they were no longer God's chosen people, the Christian Congregation became God's chosen. Jesus told the Jews this very thing, Matt 21:42,44. Jewus told them thast their House, meanting the Temple, was ABANDONED to them, Matt 23:37,38. After Jesus death they way was opened for all people to come into the Christian Congregation. This is what was prophesied by the promises God made to Abraham, Gen 22:18, and later fulfilled, according to Paul, Rom 9:23,24, 1Cor 1:24, Gal 3:7-9, Eph 3:5,6. Fleshly Israel was not the real Israel, but all who believed in Jesus ransom sacrifice became part of Spiritual Israel, Rom 9:6-8, Heb 12:22-24, 1Pet 2:4-10. Both Jews and gentiles would become part of the Household of God, Eph 2:11-22.
 

RichardBurger

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RichardBurger, The church, The Congregation of God, is spiritual Israel!! This question brings up much unformation. unless you possess praecognita it is pretty difficult to explain this precept, with few words. First you must understand that the Mosaic Law Covenant was an interim, a de bene esse, covenant, meaning it was only for a period of time, until the coming of the Messiah, Christ, who turned out to be Jesus, John 1:29, Jere 31:31-34. The Mosaic Law Covenant went obsolete at the death of Jesus, Heb 8:13, Col 2:13,14. Jesus died to take away the Mosaic Law Covenant because no one could obey it perfectly, so it condemned all under it to death, Rom 7:4-6, Gal 3:10-14, 5:3,4, Acts 13:38,39, 15:10,11, Rom 6:23. Aftert the death of Jesus, Christians became under The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:14-20, Heb 8:6-13. The Jews, who were God's chosen people, since 1513, had rejected Jesus as the Christ. Because of rejecting Jesus they were no longer God's chosen people, the Christian Congregation became God's chosen. Jesus told the Jews this very thing, Matt 21:42,44. Jewus told them thast their House, meanting the Temple, was ABANDONED to them, Matt 23:37,38. After Jesus death they way was opened for all people to come into the Christian Congregation. This is what was prophesied by the promises God made to Abraham, Gen 22:18, and later fulfilled, according to Paul, Rom 9:23,24, 1Cor 1:24, Gal 3:7-9, Eph 3:5,6. Fleshly Israel was not the real Israel, but all who believed in Jesus ransom sacrifice became part of Spiritual Israel, Rom 9:6-8, Heb 12:22-24, 1Pet 2:4-10. Both Jews and gentiles would become part of the Household of God, Eph 2:11-22.
Almost correct but those that are saved under grace in this age ARE NOT Israel. Jesus promised the 12 that they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this earth. Since you believe you are now spritual Israel, which one of the 12 will rule over you? The future for Israel is not the same as ours.http://letusreason.org/7thAd5.htmYou have your opinion and I have mine and obviously we disagree.Richard
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Rank Stranger

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It is my opinion that Richard Burger has fallen into a "reference" trap that many others have fallen victim to. The writings that he cites from the "church fathers", if he checks further, originated from Roman Catholic Church sources. What he used were forgeries from the original texts left by those fathers, and were altered specifically to give credence to traditions of men adopted by that church.I have done some research into this situation, and what I found was utterly astounding. There are whole volumes of workd attributed to various church fathers, and especially Augustine of Hippo, that were either altered or simply made up. In many cases, the original documents stated what is exactly the opposite from what the catholic church claims was stated.What is that? The grand old RCC would forge documents just to make itself seem to be more important than it actually was? Oh yes, they certainly did. Lies upon lies, and then more lies. Anyone who doubts that claim need research no farther than the psudo isodoran decretals (spelling varies). These documents were all forgeries or alterations of original documents, and were maintained as being truthful by the always trustworthy RCC for several hundred years after they were proven to be forgeries and nothing else.Rank Stranger
 

Christina

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I do agree that it was with Augustine that the real perversion and stared taking place For political reasons he changed many teaching and in doing so caused many to die. It was his goal to wipe out or at least diminish Judaism to the point it would not be any competition to the church.
 

Rank Stranger

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The writings of St. Ignatius can be found on the internet.Just type St. Ignatius in your search engine.Richard
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The real question is whose writings they actually are? Fabrication and forgery are rampant, and cannot be dismissed, regardless of the source cited. The old "garbage in - garbage out" adage is just chucked full of truth.Rank Stranger
 

Christina

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James is written to scattered tribes abroad who do you think that is talking too??? Where do you think the tribes are? 10 northern tribes went north over the Caucasus mountins into Scotland, Ireland and Britain where they became Christians and were scattered aboard to become the Christian nations ( they are called Ephraim and Mannash in prochecy) This is us this is who James is writting to.Christians are the lost tribes scattered abroard.the two southern tribes called Judah in prophecy it being the largest kept their Jewishness and became the Jews of todays Israel.In Ezek 37 these are the two sticks Christians (w/Gentiles) and Jews that are seprate and will be rejoined into the Whole house of Israel with Christ as their King at his second coming. The whole house of Israel is all twevle tribes (made up of Christian, and Jew)as the Jews will accept Christ as their savior. Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. Eze 37:15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. Eze 37:18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these? Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all
 

RichardBurger

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So some would believe Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. IMHO Foolishness!So when Paul was sent to the Gentiles he was really just sent to the Jews in the 10 lost tribes of Israel. IMHO Foolishness!Up until Abraham there was only one race of people, God called them Gentiles.God took Abraham and started a new people to call His own. They we called Jews.In Gal. We see that the 12 were going to go to the Jews and Paul was going to the Gentiles.All I see is that in order to keep James as written to the Gentile church some are making the Gentiles, Jews. IMHO Foolishness!Not only is it foolishness, it is absured.Richard
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watt

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IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE SOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVE(RichardBurger;54499)
So some would believe Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. IMHO Foolishness!So when Paul was sent to the Gentiles he was really just sent to the Jews in the 10 lost tribes of Israel. IMHO Foolishness!Up until Abraham there was only one race of people, God called them Gentiles.God took Abraham and started a new people to call His own. They we called Jews.In Gal. We see that the 12 were going to go to the Jews and Paul was going to the Gentiles.All I see is that in order to keep James as written to the Gentile church some are making the Gentiles, Jews. IMHO Foolishness!Not only is it foolishness, it is absured.Richard
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THE TRUTH IS HERE ;-JAMES appears as the leader, we might sayThe Bishop of The JeruSalem community. Then , when Gospel spread, it seems He was viewed as The One responsible for all Christian communities having a majority of jews, which were established in palestine, syria and cilicia(Acts 15:13-29)Of all the Apostles, He was the most attached to the jewish traditions (The extreme appositeof Paul). In speaking to the faithful in Jerusalem. He taught them simple, practical things inspired by Wisdom of Old testement (HOLY SPIRIT).We hear the echo of His preaching in this letter address to the Christians of Jewish origin living in the huge diocese.They are called " The twelve tribes scattered among the nation" a name which was given to the jews who had settle outside their homeland. (also related to-1 Peter 1:1)The letter was written between the years of 50 and 60 after CHRIST.MOST CHRISTIAN (THOSE WHO ARE NOT BORN AGAIN) LOOK DOWN ON IT.ACTUALLY THIS IS TOTALLY THE WORKS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.... HUMAN BEING WITH FLESH WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT IS WORKING AMONG US... FOR HE IS SPIRIT.... FLESH CAN NOT UNDERSTAND.MAY GOD FORGIVE ALL OUR SINAMENFROM WATT
 

Christina

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So some would believe Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. IMHO Foolishness!So when Paul was sent to the Gentiles he was really just sent to the Jews in the 10 lost tribes of Israel. IMHO Foolishness!Up until Abraham there was only one race of people, God called them Gentiles.God took Abraham and started a new people to call His own. They we called Jews.In Gal. We see that the 12 were going to go to the Jews and Paul was going to the Gentiles.All I see is that in order to keep James as written to the Gentile church some are making the Gentiles, Jews. IMHO Foolishness!Not only is it foolishness, it is absured.Richard
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Well might try to study some history and scripture here and stop putting words in my mouth before you call something absurd. Your reasoning about Abraham has nothing to do with the scattering of the tribes After 70 AD.Do the Words God chose out a people ring a bell with you??“For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).Now we know Christ is the Only way so if God chose out a people and then gave us Christ how do you reconcile these two facts??? If your going to disagree with something at least have some relevant facts and scripture. Do you have any idea what Eze chapter 17 is talking about? who do you say these to sticks in Eze 37 is ? Do you know about Josheps birthright being divided and to whom? http://www.christianityboard.com/judaha-sc...ight-t6118.html
 

RichardBurger

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It was said: "If your going to disagree with something at least have some relevant facts and scripture. Do you have any idea what Eze chapter 17 is talking about? who do you say these to sticks in Eze 37 is ? Do you know about Josheps birthright being divided and to whom?"The Jews separated, with 10 tribes going north and they called their area "Israel"The remaining 2 tribes stayed in the south and they called their area "Judea"Both of theses areas were conquered by Babylon and many Jews left these two areas and traveled abroad.James was addressing his letter to those Jews that were scattered abroad.God will restore all these Jewish tribes when Jesus returns. That is what Ezekiel was writing about.The two sticks are the 10 tribes and the 2 tribes of Israel. In the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this earth God will join them back into one nation. However, that does not make them Christians.It is my understanding that the Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah but they cling to the Law of Moses just as they did in Act 21.The Grace church started by Paul is not under the Law of Moses. Under Paul’s gospel, both Jew and Gentile are saved in the same way, by faith in God’s work on the cross and not by the Law of Moses. To be a Christian you must believe in Paul’s gospel.Therefore the book of James was not written to the grace church since it is basically devoid of grace.Richard
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Christina

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In part true but its incomplete and a wrong conclusion drawn, The ten tribes did go to Scotland ect. as I explained and they did become Christians.And it is to them James is written
 

RichardBurger

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In part true but its incomplete and a wrong conclusion drawn, The ten tribes did go to Scotland ect. as I explained and they did become Christians.And it is to them James is written
James was not written to me, I am a Gentile, saved under God's grace by faith in what Jesus (God) did on the cross. And no, I am not a Jew from one of the lost tribes of Israel.Richard
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Jordan

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In part true but its incomplete and a wrong conclusion drawn, The ten tribes did go to Scotland ect. as I explained and they did become Christians.And it is to them James is written
James was not written to me, I am a Gentile, saved under God's grace by faith in what Jesus (God) did on the cross. And no, I am not a Jew from one of the lost tribes of Israel.Richard
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James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 

Christina

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James was not written to me, I am a Gentile, saved under God's grace by faith in what Jesus (God) did on the cross. And no, I am not a Jew from one of the lost tribes of Israel.Richard
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perhaps so ..maybe not... do you know ALL your ancestors back to 70 AD did they come from Europe? If so how can you say one way or other??We have forgotten who we are because we became christians some 1900 years ago and lost all contact with any Jewish roots. We may not know who we are but I assure you God does, but either way gentiles are grafted in. But none of this however Change's what we Christians are called in prophecy to identify whom is being spoken of. Ephraim and Mannasha are Britan and the U.S. including Canada and Australia. Being saved by God grace is true of every human and has nothingto do with any of this. Remember Abraham was to be the father of many nations(Gen 17:4 ) not just Israel