Apostolic councils?
- Thread starter theefaith
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Apostolic being defined based on Biblical testimony, is divinely authoritative (council in Jerusalem, Acts 15). If you are referring to ecumenical councils, or councils convened after the Apostolic age (90ad), there is absolutely zero authority.
So you reject the biblical teaching on apostolic succession?
where does the Bible say the apostles end or there is an apostolic age
where does the Bible say the apostles end or there is an apostolic age
Where does the Bible establish the principle of Apostolic succession, ...of which I vehemently denounce?!
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
As church history is one of my favorites subjects and which I have studied assiduously, I am very aware that such things as apostolic succession and apostolic councils were invented by a pseudo-church called the Roman Catholic Church.
The original church is known as The Way and there were no Christians in that church let alone a roman catholic one. As the apostles went around sharing the good news of the risen Christ, first to the Jews and then to the gentiles, in most cases they left them to govern themselves according to what they had been taught by the apostles.
It was not a case that the apostles had faith in their teaching or the new converts, it was a case they had faith in the Holy Spirit to teach them the truth. This usually happened as I read yesterday about a church that was full of ex-homosexuals, fornicators, thieves, slaves and various other ner do wells. All born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and a sense of the debilitating nature of sin.
Whenever something arose that was causing a problem the apostles either wrote a letter addressing the problem or sent someone to sort it out. An example is Paul telling Timothy to stay in the church at Ephesus to sort out some things and to appoint Elders (not pastors) to take charge of the church which he did.
On that point, if the scripture is our guide and teacher, we should be appointing Elders, not pastors to take care of the church. In fact, no new testament church appointed a pastor to run the church. There are 23 verses that refer to the leadership in the new testament church and the passages in Timothy and Titus and they all refer to Elders. Not one refers to pastors. So the question is why do we do that which is contrary to scripture?
Every church in those days was self-governing and had to make their own way in society as best suited them in the environment they lived in. Once the 12 disciples had died, usually murdered by a hateful Sanhedrin or under Roman law, they had established enough people who were fanatical about spreading the news of the Messiah and as a result, the known world was evangelized.
There was no roman catholic church in sight, no central authority, and no pope. The RCC was nothing more than a grab for power much later and centralized authority so they could control everything.
And one final point. Much of what the RCC does is contrary to scripture and without authority from the word, God or Jesus.
You don’t have any authority to denounce anything your not an apostle or successors of an apostle!
Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)
Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!
mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
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Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people
The nature of authority is hierarchy!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
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Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
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Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)
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Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
It doesn't say Peter anywhere in this hierarchy?
1 Corinthians 11:3. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
it’s not refering to church government
Jesus is king and no king administers his own kingdom See Joseph under pharaoh and his brothers in obedience to him as a type
Fathers have care of their children, spiritual fathers care for our souls!
Pope, papa, father, yes spiritual father!
Is 22
Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:
Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: and the power to bind and loose:
Mt 17:27
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!
Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:
Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:
Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:
Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!
1 Tim 1 Paul is Timothy’s spiritual father.
1 Jn 2:1 little children are adult Christians, John is their spiritual father.
Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)
Yes, you're probably right as far as that passage is concerned. Peter was probably just intimidated by the Judaizers so he acted in the manner that he did, but still held to orthodox convictions. Whereas amongst the Christian Jews, he still would probably profess the acceptance of the Gentiles into the Kingdom, and not act in a way that was contrary to his beliefs, as he did in front of Paul that particular circumstance.
But, without going into a long dissertation about apostolic succession, or the significance of Jesus stating that he will 'build his Church on this rock (petros)', or handing Peter the keys, etc..., we cannot condone the principle of a dictatorship or oligarchy within the hierarchy of the Church. Or, especially, and definitively, the concept of a Vicar of Christ on earth. These heretical and subversive tenets force us to interpret the alleged pontifical statements of the NT, in a manner that does not support such dominance and tyranny to one man.
thank you for being reasonable
I’m not concerned with papal abuses and such we can talk about that later
but Christ did establish Peter as the head of the church on earth to administer His kingdom in His absence
vicar simply means Christ is acting thru Peter the apostles and their successors
Matt 28:29 I am with you (the apostles) unto the end
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:
Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: and the power to bind and loose:
Mt 17:27
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!
Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:
Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:
Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:
Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!
yes, tyranny was not necessarily the best word, for it implies what was circumstantial in the past (I didn't mean it that way), ...but I did mean Oligarchy and dictatorship, i.e. absolute or precedential control to one man on earth. This is an antithetical principle to Christ being the Head of man, as in all men. For since we understand and appreciate Christ's unprecedented authority, we cannot ascribe such an equivalence to man, but even if we still acknowledge Christ's authority above him. We don't structure the hierarchy as God, Christ, Peter, then all men.
Yes, undeniably, Peter was a leader in the Church, but as was James and John too. Thus, Peter did perform a lot of the noteworthy and exceptional acts, that no apostle up to that point had done. But, these are the early stages of the Church, and someone has to be the first, whether a leader or not.
In short, I do not interpret the verses that you provided above, as categorical statements affirming Peter's unique and unchallenged authority on earth. Especially, ascribed to those who have lead in his direct succession.
You are right in saying all are one in Christ but that refers to equality not roles husband and wife are equal but have different roles the husband the head, the wife the heart but even this is a type of the church the bride who submits to Christ thru His apostles
Rom 5:1 obedience of the faith
Eph 4:5 one Lord one faith one baptism
Yet Peter is the administer of the kingdom and it is a kingdom not a democracy and the apostles obey him just as Joseph was prime minister under pharaoh administer of the kingdom and his brothers bowed down in obedience to him.
There is no dictatorship Peter and the apostles are united to and lead by Christ and the Holy Spirit matt 28:29 I am with you Jn 16:13 into all truth acts 8 Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
No, but your giving Peter and his successors an authority that surpasses what you just described. Ex-Cathedra is a prime example. Not to mention that Peter's apostolic lineage was not derived from God, but the College of Cardinals. Now then, you must ascribe to them the same infallibility as that of Peter, in order to make their decision of the next Vicar of Christ, valid.
1) Peter and the apostles have to have successors Matt 28:19 teach all nations the apostles could not possibly fulfill this without successors? Jesus said I am with you the apostles until the end so they have to have successors.
2)
Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
Yes, but after Joshua, there was no one who fulfilled the office that Moses had presided over. So that succession of someone having the same capacity as the progenitor, ceased after one generation. Same with the Apostles, gifts of the spirit persisted, but divine inspiration to establish dogma and Scripture, if not for just practical reasons - either conflicts, or insufficient establishment, of orthodoxy), also ceased after those who were only a certain degree of separation from Christ. ie, All the Apostles or the authors of Scripture, either saw Christ, pre-resurrection (the 12) or post-resurrection (Paul), or were in contact with those that did (Luke). The Canon and Precepts of Christianity ended with these men.
that only produces spiritual anarchy
Without the church of the apostles you can’t even know what is scripture and what is not much less have authority to correctly interpret them, the Bible give no one Authority to read for yourself and make your own faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
You have to be taught
We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
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