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Apostolic councils?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by theefaith, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    You draw people down rabbit-holes BOL, that's why we are here. You skirt the issue on every occasion. Quit playing these games with trivia, and try to see the big picture. Debating with you is like debating with a impudent little child, you have a big abusive mouth, but absolutely no sense in understanding the discussion at hand. You're defending your position based on nuances, for what the heck is an indulgence in the first place, simpleton? That was rhetorical, do you get the point yet?
     
  2. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    You have done no such thing. THis discussion is above you BOL.
     
  3. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    When the doctrines did not align with Scripture. Maybe this part is subjective, but, I am sure that you cannot find Scriptural proof for the principle of 'Intercession of the Saints', Mary's immaculate conception, nor her assumption into heaven. Neither the Crusades nor Inquisitions. Neither transubstantiation, nor the hierarchy of priest, bishop, Cardinal, Vicar of Christ.
    That is enough to show, that, again, these doctrines that were promulgated and ratified by 'ordained' apostles, were heretical.
    Mary, I'm am not blaming men or Churches for having wrong doctrine, this is absolutely everywhere. But, I will denounce them for establishing bad doctrine, while at the same time claiming apostolic succession . It is the boast of both 'Catholicism' and infallibility as to where the offense largely lies.
     
  4. jaybird

    jaybird Well-Known Member

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    I am happy with the church in the years after Jesus, you had different schools of thought on salvation, Christology, etc, but so what, people should be free to chose the teachings they believe are correct, if they are seeking the Father they will be lead correctly, thats what Jesus taught, they should not be persecuted.

    I liked the religions freedom and pro learning that went back to Alexander the great. Most of the Diadochi ruled with the same ideas with the exception of Seleucus who seemed to be a real slimeball, not sure what went wrong with him but Jeresalem suffered greatly and it went on all the way to the days of Jesus, not many know about the politics and corruption that Jesus, the 12, John B and all the rest of the good guys had to go through and much is blamed on the pharisees but its not entirely correct, the Maccabees books explain a lot of this but they removed these books from our bibles so we just have to go around confused.
     
  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    "Rabbit holes"??

    You think that explaining to you that the selling of Indulgences was an historically-verifiable abuse is leading you down a "rabbit hole"??
    What color is the sky in YOUR world?? That's called "doing your homework" - something that is as foreign to YOU as history AND Scripture . . .
     
  6. jaybird

    jaybird Well-Known Member

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    i dont agree kicking anyone from any church. i think this idea would have worked well in the days of Jesus and maybe a few generations later, but many generations later you have the church just as guilty of wrongdoings as the ones they accuse. the Cathar Christians even by the roman accounts lived upright lives, they even lived alongside Catholics with no problem. why persecute them? and they were not just persecuted, they were slaughtered like animals, women and children to. when you catch yourself involved in such terrible deeds i think its time to re think the whole thing you are teaching.
     
  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    I just gave a Scriptural proof of Apostolic Succession AND an historical one.

    What is your refutation of these facts?
    Do you even HAVE one??
     
  8. jaybird

    jaybird Well-Known Member

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    thats my best friend BreadOfLife. we have always been so close. he is the one with the pic of two hands holding a babylonian clay tablet thing.
     
  9. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    My point was, whether sold, handed-out, raffled, lottery, whatever..., indulgences are non-biblical, and a wicked implementation by the non-apostolic Catholic Church.
     
  10. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Where, you have given no such proof. Seemingly refuting a non-sequitur does not establish Apostolic succession.
    My poiint is this, I have cjhosen historical facts to prove that the Catholic Church is not apostolic.
    What you would need to do in order to convince anyone, otherwise, is to proof that Catholic Dogma is Biblical, prove that these men performed miracles (unless your a cessationist), ... In other words, display characteristics of both power and authority as of the 1st century apostles. I have proved otherwise.
     
  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And that is yet another ignorant and dishonest statement.
    Dishonest, because I have already PROVEN that the Catholic Church is Apostolic.
    Ignorant because Indulgences are indeed Biblical. Allow me to educate you - yet again . . .

    Sin causes guilt and punishment for which there can be both temporal and eternal consequences. The temporal consequences for sin may remain, even if it is forgiven– much in the same way that a fornicator might be forgiven, but now lives with HIV.

    For example - David’s sin was forgiven – but the sword never left his household (2 Sam. 12:7-14).

    What do you think Jesus was doing with the Apostles in the following verses? Was He just “jerking their chain”, so to speak – or was He transferring His power onto them??

    Matt 16:16-19
    I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    Matt. 18:15-18
    Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    John 16:12-15
    “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
    But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
    He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
    Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

    John 20:21-23
    Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, HE BREATHED ON THEM and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

    WHAT did the Father “send” Jesus to do? He sent Him to bring about the FORGIVENESS OF SINS – and that’s precisely what Jesus sent the Apostles and their successors to do.

    Jesus gave His CHURCH the power to BIND and LOOSE temporal punishment. He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18). These aren’t thing that Jesus took lightly – even if YOU do . . .
     
  12. Brakelite

    Brakelite Well-Known Member

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    The apostolic churches were made up of human beings Mary, and not one of them claimed to have all their ducks in a row when it came to faith and practice.. And the churches themselves were somewhat sorry examples of Christian piety in many cases. We tend to gloss over those shortcomings when reading the NT and hold up the apostolic church as one to be emulated. And as history progressed it got worse, not better.
     
  13. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Round, and round, and round, and round we go. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!! We all agree that Christ appointed certain men to carry on the tradition that he received from the Father, and that he himself fulfilled on behalf of the Father. The Great Commission is the command that all men who have believed in the Gospel of Christ, faithfully disseminate God's Word throughout the world. Paul was the first to bring it to Rome, Philip in Samaria, Peter to the Gentiles, Aquila & Priscilla to Apollos (more fully), etc... All disciples were handed the keys to bring forgiveness to all people.
    WE ALL AGREE ON THIS FOR THE UPTEENTH TIME!!!!

    Question lies as to where this unadulterated truth resides now. The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE IN ITS FULLNESS! Especially not the Catholic Church, which becomes rather axiomatic just by reading the decrees from Trent, the Lateran Councils, or Vatican I & II. But, understand something BOL, I would say the exact something about the Westminster Confession or the Synod of Dort, about the Augsburg or Formula of Concord decrees, about the Book of Common Prayer, and so on. That is, that there is enough error in all these Confessions and Statements of Faith, Ecumenical or local Councils, that we see that there is no one Church that holds the entire and untainted truth handed down by the apostles. It is obtainable, but much study and research is required, you will not find it under one entity or Church. Again, this is a demonstrable fact.

    You are a catholic, I am non-denominational, that notion alone already gives me the upper hand!
     
  14. Illuminator

    Illuminator Well-Known Member

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    Whose "history" are you referring to? The lies invented by all the made-in-America cults founded in the mid 18th century? Or the Landmark (Successionist) Baptists that are so absurd they are an embarrassment to Baptists? All the false histories in this thread can't be proven, they are just asserted. Catholics are not afraid to look at the truth of history square in the face. Anti-Catholics are busy inventing lies and falsehoods that it's impossible to refute them all line by line. This is another Catholic bashing thread that should be closed due to the invasion of anti-trinitarian hate cults or the "Bible Christian" Taliban who derail with different topics on every page.
     
  15. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi jaybird,

    Who do you think steals all the high dollar art work in the world? Who do you think is buying that art work?

    Mary
     
  16. Illuminator

    Illuminator Well-Known Member

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    "...Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head, no accountability beyond the local congregation, no fellowship beyond the local assembly, no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity..."
    by Daniel B. Wallace
    Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary

    This is the "upper hand" by which DNB derives his authority to criticize Catholicism.
    The only thing you have proven is false histories invented by cults and radical ignorant Protestants. If the councils were wrong, then so is the doctrine of the Trinity. You can't have it both ways.

    THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  17. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thanks DNB!!! You present a very good argument. I think in summary you are saying if it’s not in Scripture then Christians shouldn’t believe it or practice it. I can respect that. As you know I don’t agree with it.....So lets not talk about intercession of the Saints, Mary’s immaculate conception, assumption into heaven, transubstantiation etc.

    Since Scripture is all we need and our doctrine should align with Scripture please to tell: Does baptism save you?

    Mary

    BTW....Thanks to the glorious Crusades you are not a Muslim and the Christian Holy Land has been preserved. Thank God for the Catholic Church.
     
  18. Illuminator

    Illuminator Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere in Scripture do we explicitly find women partaking of the Eucharist, so according to DNB, women should be left out.
    THIS CATHOLIC BASHING THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED
     
  19. Brakelite

    Brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Source, as stated in the post, was the NT. This isn't a Catholic bashing thread. It's a conversation about apostolic councils. An earlier remark I made concerning one council that resulted in the persecution of other Christians having been presided over by a pagan emperor, got lost in the mix. The Catholic Church derived much of it's impetus and authority from pagan emperors, a fact of history which ought to receive more attention especially when one considers the scriptural denunciation of the union of church and state. I think these topics are worthy of discussion. To not do so and denounce such discussions as "Catholic bashing" is reminiscent of the same cancel culture paradigm now being promoted by historical revisionists in the Democrat party.
     
  20. Brakelite

    Brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I think it sad that a Catholic should even consider asking for a thread to be shut down on the basis that Catholicism shouldn't be held accountable for its own history.
     
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