Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

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prism

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Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil :)
 

Helen

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Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil :)

Tricky. :)

Can I say BOTH?
I am saved because I believed in what Jesus did for us.
And I continue to believe on Him, unto the 'full grown man.'
 

prism

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Tricky. :)

Can I say BOTH?
I am saved because I believed in what Jesus did for us.
And I continue to believe on Him, unto the 'full grown man.'

LOL, I hadn't thought of it from your 2nd view. This is what Dave had said...
Dave L Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe. If you would like to start a thread, it would make an interesting discussion. Today at 12:25 PM Report

So I think that was his intended angle, which I do not hold to, ( faith must be granted before one believes). But maybe he is intending it as you laid it out. I think @Dave_L will join in time to clarify.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Belief is sometimes confused with knowledge. Just knowledge will not save you, as even the demons "believe" and tremble. His sheep hear His voice, but they also FOLLOW Him. It is called abiding. John 15. Abiding is like the consummation of a marriage, where you become one. And it all starts after knowledge by repenting of all sin, and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9; Acts 2:38-39.
 

1stCenturyLady

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LOL, I hadn't thought of it from your 2nd view. This is what Dave had said...
Dave L Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe. If you would like to start a thread, it would make an interesting discussion. Today at 12:25 PM Report

So I think that was his intended angle, which I do not hold to, ( faith must be granted before one believes). But maybe he is intending it as you laid it out. I think @Dave_L will join in time to clarify.

Some translations call the fruit, faithfulness - "faith." But faithfulness is enduring to the end, and is the true fruit of the Spirit. This is why some believe you have to be saved first to have faith. That is the cart before the horse, and Calvinism.
 
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Enoch111

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Would any like to chime in?
There is an ancient saying about putting the cart before the horse (which means reversing the proper order of things). And Dave L has adopted the false ideology of the Calvinists, who claim to uphold the sovereignty of God while undermining His Gospel at every turn.

The short answer is that people are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and that is a PLAIN STATEMENT OF FACT (Acts 16:31). See also the entire 10th chapter of Romans.

However here are the reasons why Calvinists put the cart before the horse (as in TULIP).
1. Calvinism claims that God has decreed/foreordained/predestined/elected some men ARBITRARILY for salvation. These are the so-called "elect", under Unconditional Election.
2. Therefore Christ died for only "the elect", and all others are damned (Limited Atonement).
3. And no man can believe (Total Depravity) unless he first receives the gift of the Holy Ghost and is regenerated to receive the "gift" of faith, and that constitutes so-called "Irresistible Grace".
4. Therefore -- for all intents and purposes -- Calvinists are saved BEFORE they believe! About as bizarre a doctrine as one could find.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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There is an ancient saying about putting the cart before the horse (which means reversing the proper order of things). And Dave L has adopted the false ideology of the Calvinists, who claim to uphold the sovereignty of God while undermining His Gospel at every turn.

The short answer is that people are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and that is a PLAIN STATEMENT OF FACT (Acts 16:31). See also the entire 10th chapter of Romans.

However here are the reasons why Calvinists put the cart before the horse (as in TULIP).
1. Calvinism claims that God has decreed/foreordained/predestined/elected some men ARBITRARILY for salvation. These are the so-called "elect", under Unconditional Election.
2. Therefore Christ died for only "the elect", and all others are damned (Limited Atonement).
3. And no man can believe (Total Depravity) unless he first receives the gift of the Holy Ghost and is regenerated, and that constitutes so-called "Irresistible Grace".
4. Therefore -- for all intents and purposes -- Calvinists are saved BEFORE they believe! About as bizarre a doctrine as one could find.

LOL, read my post before yours #5. We agree!
 
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Enoch111

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe.
Only for those are ALREADY SAVED. Faith is also a spiritual gift for those are ALREADY SAVED. So that is a gross misrepresentation of saving faith.
( faith must be granted before one believes)
This is incorrect. (Saving) Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17)

When you (anyone) reject the supernatural power of the Word of God and the Gospel to bring sinners to the Savior, you are actually mocking God and Christ. But here is what Paul says (Rom 1:16,17):

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17)

The supernatural faith that is one of the gifts of the Spirit, is a result of Romans 10:17. The word, "word" is rhema. And that rhema is spoken by God, Himself. When you receive a rhema, you also receive the gift of supernatural faith to see the rhema come to pass.

Another verse that uses the word rhema is John 15:7. When you receive the rhema from Jesus to your spirit, you pray what the rhema said, and it comes to pass. It is not your will, but God's. That is one error that prosperity teachers made when just reading John 15:7 in English, and not Greek. They believed whatever your will was God would give you. Wrong.
 

Hidden In Him

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LOL, I hadn't thought of it from your 2nd view. This is what Dave had said...
Dave L Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe. If you would like to start a thread, it would make an interesting discussion. Today at 12:25 PM Report

So I think that was his intended angle, which I do not hold to, ( faith must be granted before one believes). But maybe he is intending it as you laid it out. I think @Dave_L will join in time to clarify.

Oh, boy. I sincerely like Dave, yet he and I don't always get on well (in fact we rarely get on well), and it's because of blanket statements like this. I consider it to be taking the use of the word faith from passages like Galatians 5:22-23 and applying the same exact usage over into something like Romans 10:17. This creates MASSIVE problems in interpretation that I can't even begin to cover.

For example (and this would just be one of dozens), Galatians 5:22-23 reads, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Now, if faith only exists as a fruit of the Spirit, it would naturally follow that there is no such thing as faith apart from the Spirit. Hence it would follow that there is no such thing as love, or gentleness, or joy, or temperance apart from the Spirit either. Thus, by this reasoning, no unsaved person has ever felt or expressed love, gentleness, joy, temperance, or anything else on the list, not having yet received the Spirit of God.

Take Romans 10:17: If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and yet faith is a gift of God, it makes hearing the word of God redundant and unnecessary. He gives faith as He pleases, making hearing the word of God just a strange formalism that precedes the giving of faith, unless of course God is duty bound to make sure someone hears the word first before giving them something they can in no way receive through any actions of their own anyway.

Again, I can't tell you how many illogical conclusions arise from taking the use of a word in one text and applying it over into other texts with the exact same meaning.

But to each His own. If Dave is going to respond I think I will let him have the floor on this one. I just don't have the patience for it, though I mean that sincerely and not as an insult.

@Dave L: Whenever you read this, brother, hope you are well. I have a friend at this forum who seems to like you, and asked me to try and be nice to you if possible. So I'll try not to let mitigating circumstances conspire against us, LoL.

Blessings in Christ, as always.


cat+on+a+roomba+attacks+dog+dr+heckle+funny+wtf+gifs.gif
 
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Dan57

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Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

I'm saved because I believe (John 3:16).. I didn't decide to believe because I'm saved, because I'd believe even if I wasn't saved.
 
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justbyfaith

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Romans 5:2 would indicate that faith comes before grace; since we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

The Issue of Calvinism.

Of course it is about believers. It doesn't change the fact that we as believers have gained access into grace by our faith.

Maybe one of these days you will open your eyes and see that if I have access by a key into my mansion, the fact that I am now living in my mansion doesn't mean that I didn't enter into it in the first place by using the key that was given me to my mansion.

Therefore if someone is not living in their mansion, aren't you saying that they cannot gain access to their mansion since they aren't living in it currently?

I am saying that Jesus gives to unbelievers the key to a mansion (which is faith, so that they will not be unbelievers any more); and that when they use the key and enter into their mansion, they have all the benefits of living in the mansion. Not before.

If salvation comes before faith, then one must be already living in the mansion before they can gain access using the key. And this is something of an oxymoron.

Now living in your mansion represents being a recipient of grace in the following:

Even in Calvinism a man is born dead in trespasses and sins. So then, he is born outside his heavenly mansion. If Romans 5:2 only refers to believers, then only those who believe...those who are already living in their mansions...have the key to their mansion and therefore access to their mansion. Which would mean that if you're not currently living in your mansion, you are out of luck. You cannot gain access by faith into grace; because you are not in grace.
 
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Enoch111

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The supernatural faith that is one of the gifts of the Spirit, is a result of Romans 10:17.
Are you suggesting that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit, and not the result of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Spirit?

If it were indeed a gift, then God would give it to absolutely everyone, since He commands all men to repent and believe on Christ.
 
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justbyfaith

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Are you suggesting that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit, and not the result of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Spirit?

If it were indeed a gift, then God would give it to absolutely everyone, since He commands all men to repent and believe on Christ.
You have to receive the gift in order to have possession of it.
 
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Enoch111

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You have to receive the gift in order to have possession of it.
The gift is eternal life so what is your point?
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Rom 6:23)

As I said in my previous post, if saving faith were a gift, and God desires the salvation of all mankind, then all men would receive that "gift", and all would be saved. The fact that all are not saved, nor will all be saved, proves that saving faith is not a gift.

There are many who deliberately twist the meaning of Ephesians 2:8,9 to make it say what it does not say. In that verse, and many others, eternal life is the GIFT of God to those who believe.
 
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Hisman

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Are you suggesting that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit, and not the result of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Spirit?

I don’t think he/she is suggesting it, .I think God is ! :)

Eph
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
 
D

Dave L

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Oh, boy. I sincerely like Dave, yet he and I don't always get on well (in fact we rarely get on well), and it's because of blanket statements like this. I consider it to be taking the use of the word faith from passages like Galatians 5:22-23 and applying the same exact usage over into something like Romans 10:17. This creates MASSIVE problems in interpretation that I can't even begin to cover.

For example (and this would just be one of dozens), Galatians 5:22-23 reads, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Now, if faith only exists as a fruit of the Spirit, it would naturally follow that there is no such thing as faith apart from the Spirit. Hence it would follow that there is no such thing as love, or gentleness, or joy, or temperance apart from the Spirit either. Thus, by this reasoning, no unsaved person has ever felt or expressed love, gentleness, joy, temperance, or anything else on the list, not having yet received the Spirit of God.

Take Romans 10:17: If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and yet faith is a gift of God, it makes hearing the word of God redundant and unnecessary. He gives faith as He pleases, making hearing the word of God just a strange formalism that precedes the giving of faith, unless of course God is duty bound to make sure someone hears the word first before giving them something they can in no way receive through any actions of their own anyway.

Again, I can't tell you how many illogical conclusions arise from taking the use of a word in one text and applying it over into other texts with the exact same meaning.

But to each His own. If Dave is going to respond I think I will let him have the floor on this one. I just don't have the patience for it, though I mean that sincerely and not as an insult.

@Dave L: Whenever you read this, brother, hope you are well. I have a friend at this forum who seems to like you, and asked me to try and be nice to you if possible. So I'll try not to let mitigating circumstances conspire against us, LoL.

Blessings in Christ, as always.


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You need to keep digging down to get to the bottom of this. Faith comes by hearing the word. The words are Spirit and life. They produce the New Birth (indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23)

Those who think their choosing to believe saved them, were already saved in that they believed (were saved according to Jesus), or they would not have chosen to believe. Keep digging........it's worth the effort.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Are you suggesting that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit, and not the result of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Spirit?

If it were indeed a gift, then God would give it to absolutely everyone, since He commands all men to repent and believe on Christ.

Not at all. God gives all a measure of faith. Romans 12. You can be saved, just from reading the Logos, the other Greek word for "word," and repent, the qualification to being saved, because receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is directly related to repenting of all sin unto Jesus. But when Rhemas are used, those are specific spoken words to you that you hear with your spirit. And the supernatural faith that accompanies a rhema can move mountains.

When reading the Logos (the written word), have you ever had a verse jump off the page at you? Not literally, but you get goosebumps from the impact of truth, that fits your situation? That is when the written Logos becomes a Rhema spoken from the Spirit directly to you, and with it supernatural faith.

There is more to being a Christian than initially becoming a Christian through repentance and being born again of the Spirit (the baptism of the Spirit). Then we go from glory to glory in our ministries.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Oh, boy. I sincerely like Dave, yet he and I don't always get on well (in fact we rarely get on well), and it's because of blanket statements like this. I consider it to be taking the use of the word faith from passages like Galatians 5:22-23 and applying the same exact usage over into something like Romans 10:17. This creates MASSIVE problems in interpretation that I can't even begin to cover.

I couldn't agree more! It is because sometimes the Greek has four or five different words with different meanings and applications for just one of our words - like our word "love." 1 John 3:23 to love your neighbor is agape - the God kind of moral love, the one where you would lay down your life for a friend. One day after the crucifixion and resurrection (after Peter had denied Him three times), Peter and Jesus were having a conversation and Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him, and Peter said you know I love you; feed my sheep. Then again Jesus asks Peter if he loved Him, and Peter said he loved him. Then the third time Jesus asks the same thing, Peter do you love Me, and Peter said he did. But look at the same conversation in technicolor! What Jesus was actually saying is Peter to you agape Me, (would you die for me) and Peter said, I phileo (the friendship kind of love in Greek) you. The Jesus said, Peter do you agape Me, and Peter said he phileoed Him. Then the last time Jesus came down to Peter's level and said, Peter do you phileo Me, and Peter said, yes Lord I phileo You.
 
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