are you trapped in Nicolaitan Dialectic?

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David H.

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A Nicolaitan dialectic is a means of manipulation used by leaders in a society or social construct to keep the People in their subservient and dependent position on their leadership. It is based on Circular reasoning and is prevalent in all Worldly institutions, whether they be secular or religious. The circular reasoning they use goes something like this....

We (The leaders) have been granted power, we have set up this institution for you to be a part of This institution is founded by authorized Powers that cannot be questioned. You must belong to this institution or you are not one of us.

Before you dismiss this Post, We as Christians should not be involved in this for we are not of this world. We are not to be called rabbi, but we are all brethren and sisters with Christ and Co Heirs with Jesus by adoption, He is the head of the church, not human institutions. If you can grasp this you will free yourself from a lot of burdens the religious spirit puts you under.

Are you trapped in a Nicolaitan dialectic, lost in a circle of circular reasoning?
 

marks

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Before you dismiss this Post, We as Christians should not be involved in this
Involved in what exactly?

Is this against any church with elders and shepherds and teachers, for instance? Or what are you getting at here?

Much love!
 
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David H.

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Is this against any church with elders and shepherds and teachers, for instance? Or what are you getting at here?

The Nicolaitan dialectic perpetuates itself, The Church has Elders and Shepherds but they are like you and any believer, they are all brethren, they are not rulers over the Laity, holding the laity in their place but rather encouraging them to grow in the Grace of God to be elders themselves, and to fulfill their calling. We are all a royal priesthood, not just a select few.

A Dialectic is a relationship where a society or social construct becomes bigger than the individuals who created it, thus it becomes institutionalized and self perpetuating its authority and in order to reform it one must knock down this illusion of Authority, and untouchability and exclusivity of this leadership class. This is a big issue in Governments and secular organizations and we deal with them all the time in life, but this should not be how the Church works.

As I have mentioned to you before, The Two biggest Problems in the church today is the Nicolaitan doctrines, and the Laodicean denial in the People that leads to complacency and contentment with the way things are. the Two feed off of each other in this Nicolaitan dialectic, and the circular reasoning perpetuates this relationship.

This is not How Christ created His Body to be, and is a cycle that needs to be broken. I understand this from the worldly institutions but we are not of this world. I Hope this explains it better. I Know this is a complex topic, but the church is meant to grow and mature, not to change in Hagellian dialectics where the synthesis is worse than the thesis and antithesis and growth comes in revolutions. We the individual believer are empowered by the Holy Spirit to break this circular reasoning that keeps us dependent by growing in Christ.
 
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CharismaticLady

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A Nicolaitan dialectic is a means of manipulation used by leaders in a society or social construct to keep the People in their subservient and dependent position on their leadership. It is based on Circular reasoning and is prevalent in all Worldly institutions, whether they be secular or religious. The circular reasoning they use goes something like this....

We (The leaders) have been granted power, we have set up this institution for you to be a part of This institution is founded by authorized Powers that cannot be questioned. You must belong to this institution or you are not one of us.

Before you dismiss this Post, We as Christians should not be involved in this for we are not of this world. We are not to be called rabbi, but we are all brethren and sisters with Christ and Co Heirs with Jesus by adoption, He is the head of the church, not human institutions. If you can grasp this you will free yourself from a lot of burdens the religious spirit puts you under.

Are you trapped in a Nicolaitan dialectic, lost in a circle of circular reasoning?

Sorry David, but that is not the correct definition of a Nicolaitan. Some early scholars who didn't know about Nicolas, a first century Christian who started a sect of followers to sin (rape) everyday, so grace would abound, took apart the word and came up with putting power over the laity. It was in the first century church age of Ephesus, Rev. 2 and the third church age of Pergamos was very worldly. That is the association with Balaam and Balak. The Nicolaitans were one of the Gnostic sects.

14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
 
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DancesWithGnostics

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Nicolas = a deacon in Jerusalem, one of the original 7 deacons - I find it unlikely that this Jerusalem deacon is the center of a movement in ASIA MINOR.

Nicolaitians are mentioned twice in Revelation, iow, 2 of the 7 churches had problems with "the doctrine of the Nicolaitians" which Jesus hated. The "taking apart the word" idea does yield the idea of "putting power over the laity" - stepping on the people.

NIKO LAOS

Notice that the doctrine of Balaam is CONTRASTED with Nicolaitians - therefore they are NOT THE SAME DOCTRINE.
I don't think scholars agree on which of two main ideas these Nicolatians were -

1. a sexual sin based on legend or tradition referring to Nicolas - a movement by an otherwise near-unheard of Jerusalem deacon that somehow morphed into sexual errors way off in Asia Minor

2. a doctrine of CLERGY exalted over LAITY. I do not see a biblical warrant for a CASTE SYSTEM of Clergy/Laity - it seems man-made traditions of a (CELIBATE) CLERGY perhaps sprang up in the first century, in fact, the story of Nicolas and his good-looking wife and all the sex stuff could have been invented to steer people away from what I feel is the truth - a caste system of Clergy over Laity.

We have 2 doctrines in first century Asia Minor which are wrong
Doctrine of Balaam
Doctrine of the Nicolaitians

So we have this thread - with the OP saying Nicolaitians are one thing, and someone else saying this Nicolas/sex thing is what Nicolaitians were - but no one really knows - do they?
 
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DancesWithGnostics

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I do not hold to this "church age" jazz - that the 7 churches in Asia Minor refer to CHURCH AGES down through history - that's not biblical, that's man-made stuff dreamed up sometime by somebody.

Just because we have very limited BIBLICAL information about Nicolaitians does not justify yelling "GNOSTICS", attributing that as well to these Nicolaitians as well as this sex thing with Nicolas the deacon from Jerusalem whose errors somehow became a known movement way off in Asia Minor.
 

CharismaticLady

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Nicolas = a deacon in Jerusalem, one of the original 7 deacons - I find it unlikely that this Jerusalem deacon is the center of a movement in ASIA MINOR.

Nicolaitians are mentioned twice in Revelation, iow, 2 of the 7 churches had problems with "the doctrine of the Nicolaitians" which Jesus hated. The "taking apart the word" idea does yield the idea of "putting power over the laity" - stepping on the people.

NIKO LAOS

Notice that the doctrine of Balaam is CONTRASTED with Nicolaitians - therefore they are NOT THE SAME DOCTRINE.
I don't think scholars agree on which of two main ideas these Nicolatians were -

1. a sexual sin based on legend or tradition referring to Nicolas - a movement by an otherwise near-unheard of Jerusalem deacon that somehow morphed into sexual errors way off in Asia Minor

2. a doctrine of CLERGY exalted over LAITY. I do not see a biblical warrant for a CASTE SYSTEM of Clergy/Laity - it seems man-made traditions of a (CELIBATE) CLERGY perhaps sprang up in the first century, in fact, the story of Nicolas and his good-looking wife and all the sex stuff could have been invented to steer people away from what I feel is the truth - a caste system of Clergy over Laity.

We have 2 doctrines in first century Asia Minor which are wrong
Doctrine of Balaam
Doctrine of the Nicolaitians

So we have this thread - with the OP saying Nicolaitians are one thing, and someone else saying this Nicolas/sex thing is what Nicolaitians were - but no one really knows - do they?
Eusebius, says Nicolas. A person, not a breakdown of the word.
 

marks

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The Nicolaitan dialectic perpetuates itself, The Church has Elders and Shepherds but they are like you and any believer, they are all brethren, they are not rulers over the Laity, holding the laity in their place but rather encouraging them to grow in the Grace of God to be elders themselves, and to fulfill their calling. We are all a royal priesthood, not just a select few.

Yes, of course, we need to have the right understanding of who and what are the priest nation. But to your point, we are all the same in Christ. Nonetheless Jesus has set up His body as He wants, and, in calling us His body, referring to it's parts, working as a body works, we can see we are each of us put into our places as He wills, and some are to lead, and others to follow, some to teach, others to learn, some to serve in this way, and others in that way.

And, we who learn, we who follow, we are responsible to allow the teacher to teach, as we sit still and learn, and allow the leader to lead, the shepherd to guide, while we submit to their ministry.

A Dialectic is a relationship where a society or social construct becomes bigger than the individuals who created it, thus it becomes institutionalized and self perpetuating its authority and in order to reform it one must knock down this illusion of Authority, and untouchability and exclusivity of this leadership class. This is a big issue in Governments and secular organizations and we deal with them all the time in life, but this should not be how the Church works.

So you are saying this to refer to your "Nicolaitan" class.

As I have mentioned to you before, The Two biggest Problems in the church today is the Nicolaitan doctrines, and the Laodicean denial in the People that leads to complacency and contentment with the way things are. the Two feed off of each other in this Nicolaitan dialectic, and the circular reasoning perpetuates this relationship.

Where again in Scripture are the Nicolaitan doctrines given? And by this, you are meaning, that one part of the church rule over the other part.

Considering our submission to our elders, what do you mean exactly about elders ruling? What would that look like, that is, in the way you are against? Who are we talking about here?

I know you aren't talking about my church, for instance, in that, you don't know about my church, while I do happen to know that none of the pastors consider themselves authoritarian over others.

This is not How Christ created His Body to be, and is a cycle that needs to be broken. I understand this from the worldly institutions but we are not of this world. I Hope this explains it better. I Know this is a complex topic, but the church is meant to grow and mature, not to change in Hagellian dialectics where the synthesis is worse than the thesis and antithesis and growth comes in revolutions. We the individual believer are empowered by the Holy Spirit to break this circular reasoning that keeps us dependent by growing in Christ.
I'm not sure where an Hagellian Dialectic comes into this.

But if you stick with the Bible you'll be fine!

Much love!
 

marks

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I do not hold to this "church age" jazz - that the 7 churches in Asia Minor refer to CHURCH AGES down through history - that's not biblical, that's man-made stuff dreamed up sometime by somebody.

Just because we have very limited BIBLICAL information about Nicolaitians does not justify yelling "GNOSTICS", attributing that as well to these Nicolaitians as well as this sex thing with Nicolas the deacon from Jerusalem whose errors somehow became a known movement way off in Asia Minor.
That's what I see too. A startling lack of information, for one thing, about what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was, for one thing. And I too see the letters being appropriate to churchs and people throughout the history of the church in many different ways, including cycles churches may or may not go through.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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Yes, of course, we need to have the right understanding of who and what are the priest nation. But to your point, we are all the same in Christ. Nonetheless Jesus has set up His body as He wants, and, in calling us His body, referring to it's parts, working as a body works, we can see we are each of us put into our places as He wills, and some are to lead, and others to follow, some to teach, others to learn, some to serve in this way, and others in that way.

And, we who learn, we who follow, we are responsible to allow the teacher to teach, as we sit still and learn, and allow the leader to lead, the shepherd to guide, while we submit to their ministry.



So you are saying this to refer to your "Nicolaitan" class.



Where again in Scripture are the Nicolaitan doctrines given? And by this, you are meaning, that one part of the church rule over the other part.

Considering our submission to our elders, what do you mean exactly about elders ruling? What would that look like, that is, in the way you are against? Who are we talking about here?

I know you aren't talking about my church, for instance, in that, you don't know about my church, while I do happen to know that none of the pastors consider themselves authoritarian over others.


I'm not sure where an Hagellian Dialectic comes into this.

But if you stick with the Bible you'll be fine!

Much love!

Besides Revelation 2 to the churches of Ephesus and Pergamos, the doctrine of the Gnostic Nicolaitans is found in 1 John 4:1-3.
 

marks

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, the doctrine of the Gnostic Nicolaitans is found in 1 John 4:1-3.
I'm not seeing this passage saying anything about Nicolaitan doctrine.

?

The Revelation mentions the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, but without saying what it is, as far as I can remember.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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I'm not seeing this passage saying anything about Nicolaitan doctrine.

?

The Revelation mentions the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, but without saying what it is, as far as I can remember.

Much love!
Came from early church historian.
 

CharismaticLady

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I didn't think there was anything in the Bible about it.

Thank you!

Much love!
The word Gnostic isn't there either, but it was still a real problem. 1 John 4:1-3 was a description, but wasn't "named" there. We now know what that was.
 

marks

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The word Gnostic isn't there either, but it was still a real problem. 1 John 4:1-3 was a description, but wasn't "named" there. We now know what that was.
In that passage we have detail about what John is speaking about. We can look to that detail in what it says, with or without labeling.

OK, here's a thought. If you wanted to look at Scripture to see what Gnostics thought, you'd have a similar problem. Gnostic beliefs are not defined in the Bible either. Now, we find in John good answers to some of the Gnostic ideas. But this isn't a catalog of what Gnostics believed.

In the same way, there is no catalog of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was.

Much love!
 
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DancesWithGnostics

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There are two Church Fathers named Eusebius. If it is alleged that "Eusebius of ________" claims that Nicolaitians is based on a person - Nicolas - rather than what the two words mean together (a trampling of the people) then please give a reference, CL, to which Eusebius and what referral was alluded to.

Regarding the book of Revelation itself, there are many points which seem to be established by a bare minimum of references by Early Church Fathers - case in point, the date of authorship of Revelation itself. Irenaeus has said something that people jump up and down on as proof of a "late date", in Domitian's reign -- yet the reference is dubious - as is Irenaeus himself, as he also said Jesus was 50 years old!

I lean towards an "early date" for authorship of Revelation, but do not feel the date can be fixed with any certainty. I feel the book of Revelation was penned BEFORE the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple - but if that was not the case, the eschatology of Partial Preterism does not fall apart. Some say FULL Preterism falls apart without an early date - but I am not a Full Preterist.

Thiede is one scholar who feels that ALL NT books were penned before the Temple destruction in 70 AD - which makes sense to me because how could such a thing NOT BE MENTIONED if all these NT books are as LATE as some say they are.

Some things regarding Revelation are MAN-MADE AND MADE-UP - "a Revived Roman Empire" - that is NOT IN THE BIBLE.

We must rid Eschatology of Bovine Scatology

or we have traditions and legends of a 100-year old Apostle John chasing down an apostate on a horse and getting him to repent - legend that Joseph of Arimethea and Lazarus of Bethany went to ancient England and preached the gospel there - somehow a story got cranked up that Paul FELL OFF HIS HORSE on Road to Damascus
even though in 4 biblical accounts of Damascus road experience there is NO HORSEY found...

"Mark of the Beast is a COMPUTER CHIP!" - good grief, what is swallowed these days - what in the world would that mean to a first century Christian in Asia Minor - where the LITERAL SEVEN CHURCHES were in Revelation
Mark of the Beast was taken in someone's forehead or their HAND

oh well
 

atpollard

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[Matthew 23:1-12 NASB]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say [things] and do not do [them.] "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with [so much as] a finger. "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels [of their garments.] "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. "Do not call [anyone] on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, [that is,] Christ. "But the greatest among you shall be your servant. "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.​

Beware “shepherds” and “elders” and “teachers” and “deacons” that carry themselves with the spirit of the Priests and Scribes and Pharisees.
 
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