@Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

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Adventageous

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@Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

I would like to begin with your signature bylines.

[1] "What I post is my opinion only."
[2] "I love a good Bible discussion. ;)"

If [1] is true (by your definition), then everything you write is undermined, not the least of which is [2].

Do you really think that what you post is your "opinion only"?

For instance, in post - Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

You posted some pretty bold statements, but if they are merely, as you say, your "opinion only", and not truth, or facts, then do you not see how that would undermine all that you posted?

I also see that you "love a good Bible discussion", but what do you mean by "Bible"?

Do you only "love a good Bible discussion", or do you have a love of the Truth (2 Thes. 2:10 KJB)?


The reason I ask these things, is because I am one who is interested in Truth - namely eternal, unchanging and everlasting Truth, not opinion, and especially not the opinion of men (man or woman), or even a whole group of such.

The Bible (KJB) is truth, not because I believe it to be so, nor because I say so, but because it is so. This may be demonstated in truth.

Will you spend some precious time with me, on this and a few other things?
 
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Aunty Jane

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@Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

I would like to begin with your signature bylines.

[1] "What I post is my opinion only."
[2] "I love a good Bible discussion. ;)"

If [1] is true (by your definition), then everything you write is undermined, not the least of which is [2].

Do you really think that what you post is your "opinion only"?

For instance, in post - Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

You posted some pretty bold statements, but if they are merely, as you say, your "opinion only", and not truth, or facts, then do you not see how that would undermine all that you posted?
If I may clarify what I mean by “my opinion” perhaps I should alter it to state that “what I post is my biblical opinion”, on the understanding that not all the posters or readers here agree with each other on their biblical “opinions”....we all have them.
I also see that you "love a good Bible discussion", but what do you mean by "Bible"?

Do you only "love a good Bible discussion", or do you have a love of the Truth (2 Thes. 2:10 KJB)?
As one who has come out of Christendom, knowing what I was taught in the church system, having a good Bible discussion is about comparing notes and allowing the scriptures to answer all questions.

Presenting biblical facts and examining related information concerning original language words etc, benefits everyone IMO. We should have nothing to fear from the truth, even if it challenges the very foundations of our beliefs.....the truth must triumph, or our worship is in vain, just as Jesus told the Pharisees of his day. (Matt 15:7-9) Christendom IMV, is a mirror image of apostate Judaism. The same enemy corrupted both of them. Both seem to deny that it is possible, imagining that the true God is the one guiding the. Pulse rheumatoid both be wrong? Absolutely! Jesus told us it would happen....their delusion is accepted, but the truth is rejected. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

I love to discuss what the Bible actually teaches, as opposed to what many believe that it does, due to their own ‘programming’ in church doctrine. In view of Jesus’ warning that “weeds” of counterfeit “Christianity” would infiltrate the whole world, the deceiver would create a fake “Christian” system that would hold a misled majority, into leaving the true God, by creating a false one. Jesus told us who “the only true God” is. (John 17:3)

Simply stated, Christendom does not worship the same God that my brotherhood does. The two could not be further apart. And as we move closer to the end of this wicked world system, the separating of the “wheat from the weeds” has continued. When Jesus comes to judge us all, we will already have proven to him where we stand from his perspective, not our own. (Matt 7:21-23)
The reason I ask these things, is because I am one who is interested in Truth - namely eternal, unchanging and everlasting Truth, not opinion, and especially not the opinion of men (man or woman), or even a whole group of such.

The Bible (KJB) is truth, not because I believe it to be so, nor because I say so, but because it is so. This may be demonstated in truth.
I couldn’t agree more.....
Will you spend some precious time with me, on this and a few other things?
I would be most happy to engage with you on any topic, but sadly the most important one is cased in eggshells.
I’m hoping we can discuss that in this forum as I’m sure that unorthodox topics will be raised.....here’s hoping....

Fire away....:Thumbsup:
 

Wrangler

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Simply stated, Christendom does not worship the same God that my brotherhood does. The two could not be further apart.
I recall some months ago, you mentioned various myths in Christendom. I think this thread would be a great place for you to enumerate that.

Regarding 2 God furthest apart, I think the notion of a God who allows or causes eternal suffering tops the list.
 

Adventageous

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If I may clarify what I mean by “my opinion” perhaps I should alter it to state that “what I post is my biblical opinion”, on the understanding that not all the posters or readers here agree with each other on their biblical “opinions”....we all have them.
Ok, but an "opnion" or even "what I [Aunty Jane] post is my biblical opinion" is stil just a personal "opinion" isn't it?

I understand that "not all the posters or readers here agree with each other on their "biblical "opinions"".

However, my question was to you specifically, not to others. Even if all the world has "their biblical "opinions"", and you have your "biblical opinion", what good is that to anyone, including yourself, and myself?

I agree, that everyone has "biblical opinions". I will give an example of one of mine, here.

In the special resurrection (firstfruits resurrection) at the time of Jesus' own resurrection:

Matthew 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isaiah 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4); Psalms 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Genesis 3:15); compare Psalms 68:18 to Ephesians 4:8-10; Compare Leviticus 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Corinthians 15:21-23. See also Psalms 24:1-10 (Triumphal Entry with Victory Train into New Jerusalem above), with Psalms 98:1-3; Colossians 2:15. See also Acts 1.

I believe (but have no direct evidence for, from scripture, historical document, or even my own brother's and sister's written materials) that John the Baptist is possibly one of those who was raised from the dead. This statement is just my "biblical opinion", based upon a reasoning from the scriptures, in that those who were raised, had to be local to "Jerusalem", had to be those relatively recently deceased to be able to go into the city and be recognized by those in the city (Matthew 27:53, as evidence of the power of the resurrection of Jesus), and a few other little things like that. Yet, as I said, none of that present belief of mine is proven "fact", nor is it concrete proof or even truth (per se), and I never ever say it dogmatically, nor require anyone else to hold to that belief, though I may share it with those who ask me on the subject.

So the question I asked you about the difference between your "opinion", or even "biblical opinion", and actual Truth is where I would like to discuss a bit more if you would please.

So, while the above is "opinion", do you accept the Bible as Truth, over your, my or others opinion, even if it is "biblical opinion"?

For instance, Do you accept the following to be true? Jesus is the "good shepherd"?

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

I am not asking for your opinion. I am asking if you accept those two statements to be true, no matter what anyone else, including yourself, may later believe about those two statements (ie. change your mind).

You see, those two statements are true, whether you, I, or anyone else on this world believe them, or accept them, to be truth. Truth, is eternal, unchanging, unyielding, and does not require myself to believe or accept it, or even acknowledge it. It is true because it is true. Truth is self-sustaining, self-defining, self-existing, and eternal.

An opinion (like what I stated about John the Baptist) might be true, but not necessarily. An opinion can be held in good (clean) conscience, and yet still be in error, or not actually true. If I find, that I am wrong, later, based upon greater evidence, I will simply drop my "opinion" and accept what is true. Does this make sense?
 
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Aunty Jane

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Ok, but an "opnion" or even "what I [Aunty Jane] post is my biblical opinion" is stil just a personal "opinion" isn't it?

I understand that "not all the posters or readers here agree with each other on their "biblical "opinions"".

However, my question was to you specifically, not to others. Even if all the world has "their biblical "opinions"", and you have your "biblical opinion", what good is that to anyone, including yourself, and myself?
Perhaps we are confusing “opinions” and “beliefs” here.....what I post is my opinion based on my own studies in the scriptures. These are my beliefs and are held in common with all in my brotherhood, with no disagreement or dissension as 1 Cor 1:10 clearly states should be the norm in genuine Christianity, as it was taught in the first century. Jesus’ teachings were passed along to others by the apostles after his death, but there was a warning that men would creep in and redirect the thinking of many, and lead them away from Christ and in turn away from the true God, Jehovah. This apostasy was beginning even way back at the end of the first century.....but Christendom denies that it ever happened because every one of their doctrines was based on what “the church” became, not on what Christ established.
I agree, that everyone has "biblical opinions". I will give an example of one of mine, here.

In the special resurrection (firstfruits resurrection) at the time of Jesus' own resurrection:

Matthew 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isaiah 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4); Psalms 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Genesis 3:15); compare Psalms 68:18 to Ephesians 4:8-10; Compare Leviticus 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Corinthians 15:21-23. See also Psalms 24:1-10 (Triumphal Entry with Victory Train into New Jerusalem above), with Psalms 98:1-3; Colossians 2:15. See also Acts 1.

I believe (but have no direct evidence for, from scripture, historical document, or even my own brother's and sister's written materials) that John the Baptist is possibly one of those who was raised from the dead. This statement is just my "biblical opinion", based upon a reasoning from the scriptures, in that those who were raised, had to be local to "Jerusalem", had to be those relatively recently deceased to be able to go into the city and be recognized by those in the city (Matthew 27:53, as evidence of the power of the resurrection of Jesus), and a few other little things like that. Yet, as I said, none of that present belief of mine is proven "fact", nor is it concrete proof or even truth (per se), and I never ever say it dogmatically, nor require anyone else to hold to that belief, though I may share it with those who ask me on the subject.

So the question I asked you about the difference between your "opinion", or even "biblical opinion", and actual Truth is where I would liek to discuss a bit more if you would please.

So, while the above is "opinion", do you accept the Bible as Truth, over your, my or others opinion, even if it is "biblical opinion"?

For instance, Do you accept the following to be true? Jesus is the "good shepherd"?

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

I am not asking for your opinion. I am asking if you accept those two statements to be true, no matter what anyone else, including yourself, may later believe about those two statements (ie. change your mind).

You see, those two statements are true, whether you, I, or anyone else on this world believe them, or accept them, to be truth. Truth, is eternal, unchanging, unyielding, and does not require myself to believe or accept it, or even acknowledge it. It is true because it is true. Truth is self-sustaining, self-defining, self-existing, and eternal.

An opinion (like what I stated about John the Baptist) might be true, but not necessarily. An opinion can be held in good (clean) conscience, and yet still be in error, or not actually true. If I find, that I am wrong, later, based upon greater evidence, I will simply drop my "opinion" and accept what is true. Does this make sense?
I have to go and attend to some things right now but will respond later as I want to address these scriptures and discuss them with you.....these are important questions.

I’ll be back later.....
 

Adventageous

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As one who has come out of Christendom, knowing what I was taught in the church system, having a good Bible discussion is about comparing notes and allowing the scriptures to answer all questions.

Presenting biblical facts and examining related information concerning original language words etc, benefits everyone IMO. We should have nothing to fear from the truth, even if it challenges the very foundations of our beliefs.....the truth must triumph, or our worship is in vain, just as Jesus told the Pharisees of his day. (Matt 15:7-9) Christendom IMV, is a mirror image of apostate Judaism. The same enemy corrupted both of them. Both seem to deny that it is possible, imagining that the true God is the one guiding the. Pulse rheumatoid both be wrong? Absolutely! Jesus told us it would happen....their delusion is accepted, but the truth is rejected. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

I love to discuss what the Bible actually teaches, as opposed to what many believe that it does, due to their own ‘programming’ in church doctrine. In view of Jesus’ warning that “weeds” of counterfeit “Christianity” would infiltrate the whole world, the deceiver would create a fake “Christian” system that would hold a misled majority, into leaving the true God, by creating a false one. Jesus told us who “the only true God” is. (John 17:3)

Simply stated, Christendom does not worship the same God that my brotherhood does. The two could not be further apart. And as we move closer to the end of this wicked world system, the separating of the “wheat from the weeds” has continued. When Jesus comes to judge us all, we will already have proven to him where we stand from his perspective, not our own. (Matt 7:21-23)
By your statments, Are you making a distinction between "Christendom" and "Christianity", or are you saying you do not identify as a "Christian"? By saying you are "one who has come out of Christendom" are not saying that you are come out of "Christianity", are you? Just two clarifying questions, if you please.

I make a distinction, you see, that while there may be error in theology and practice among the millions who claim the name/designation "Christian", many of those same (not all, there are wheat and tares, sheep and goats, &c, even among those nearest me) are still my "brothers" and "sisters" (catholics, orthodox, anglicans, presbyterians, methodists, baptists, Assembly, COG, COC, and etc). You seem to take the position, that anyone in a system of belief that is not exactly like yours (What is yours, exactly, please?) is not your "brotherhood". Do I understand you correctly? If so, will you please confirm this. If not, can you please clarify for me? Thank you.

I am all for "having a good Bible discussion" and "comparing notes and allowing the scriptures to answer all questions", but what is the purpose behind having the "discussion"? Is it merely to relate your "opnion", or "biblical opinion", or is it to minister to people who need to hear "the truth"? Is it merely to exchange ideas, opinions, and theology, or is there a greater purpose behind why you would have a "Bible discussion" with another person, or persons?

As for instance, from my own position, and perspective, the reason I (personally) want to have Bible discussion, on any topic therein, is not so much to have someone accept the same theology as I presently do, though there is a little bit of that, but so that they themselves can become aquainted with the truth, as given in scripture, and so that they themselves are now open (eyes, ears, heart, life) to truth, and be able to follow truth for themselves, irrespective of whether they ever meet me again upon this world.

I had asked you, "what do you mean by "Bible"?" I did not get a response to this, and it is an important question. I, however, did provide what I meant by Bible. It is the King James Bible that I am able to hold in my hand as of this moment. When I say Bible, I am not referring to any other item, but the KJB. It is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice, and is the divinely inspired and preserved words of God, in English, and is without error in its words.

So, is there a specific book you refer to when you say "Bible", or is it merely a mental construct in your own head, based upon your "opinion" about what you think the "Bible" is, or ought to be (I mean you have a series of manuscripts, codices, papayrii, etc that you mentally collate, and accept as your present "Bible" though you cannot actually hold it in any one place, and is not confirmed by any other then yourself in the same exact configuration of mss, texts, etc).

If you have a specific book that is the Bible, what is that specific book, please, and is it your final authority in all matters of faith and practice, the final arbiter and judge of all other things, whether vision, dreams, angels, prophecy, creature or creation, man or beast, or experience?

When you say "biblical facts", do you accept the following exact words as biblical fact, or if not these exact words, would you present the words you have for these two places, and do you accept them as biblical fact, the eternal truth?

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

You have stated that "Christendom does not worship the same God that my brotherhood does. The two could not be further apart."

Are you stating that you are not representing Christianity as in the Bible, separating yourself and "brotherhood" from "Christendom" (like, say Islam, or Buddhism, etc), or are you saying that what you believe and practice is true Christianity, and all else is not, but something else masquerading as Christianity?
 
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Adventageous

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I couldn’t agree more.....
This response came in reply to, "The Bible (KJB) is truth, not because I believe it to be so, nor because I say so, but because it is so. This may be demonstated in truth."

So, do you believe that the KJB (King James Bible) is "truth", or are you simply saying that what you believe the "Bible" to be is truth, and if the latter, can you answer my previous question in regards this, namely,

" ..."what do you mean by "Bible"?" I did not get a response to this, and it is an important question. I, however, did provide what I meant by Bible. It is the King James Bible that I am able to hold in my hand as of this moment. When I say Bible, I am not referring to any other item, but the KJB. It is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice, and is the divinely inspired and preserved words of God, in English, and is without error in its words.​
So, is there a specific book you refer to when you say "Bible", or is it merely a mental construct in your own head, based upon your "opinion" about what you think the "Bible" is, or ought to be (I mean you have a series of manuscripts, codices, papayrii, etc that you mentally collate, and accept as your present "Bible" though you cannot actually hold it in any one place, and is not confirmed by any other then yourself in the same exact configuration of mss, texts, etc)."​

The reason for this (repeated) question, is because I am attempting to establish a foundational framework, from which you and I may discuss "bible" truth, or even "bible" opinion. If you and I do not agree on what the "bible" is (as for instance, the Catholic religion has at least 7 other books, called deutero-canonica, aka, apocrypha, and other materials), then how can we ever come to common terminology, belief or practice? As for instance, if the KJB is the "Bible" and it say one thing, and perhaps you might accept something else as "Bible" and it says another thing, in the same location, do you see the problem that this might cause between us in futher study?
 

Adventageous

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I would be most happy to engage with you on any topic, but sadly the most important one is cased in eggshells.
I’m hoping we can discuss that in this forum as I’m sure that unorthodox topics will be raised.....here’s hoping....

Fire away....:Thumbsup:
I am not worried about what others think is a sensitive topic, though I do take into consideration others feelings, ultimately truth matters inspite of feelings, as for instance 2+2=4 inspite of how others might disagree, or feel strongly opposed to it. I even placed this thread in the "Unorthodox Doctrine Forum" in the hopes that all subjects may be freely discussed, openly, within reason (ie, no swearing, cursing, etc).

I would be most interested in discussing any topic, including, and especially this "eggshell" topic that you refer to. I assume, and correct me if I am mistaken, that it has to do with the "LORD God", or "JEHOVAH Elohiym"? If something else, please make me aware of it, so we can discuss it.

For instance, in the previous thread - Is Michael Another Name For Jesus? , you stated,

"... If you read the very next verse, which most people ignore, it says...”God, your God, anointed you.” ..."

Yet, that is not what the text (Hebrews 1:9) says. Here is what the text (KJB, and koine Greek TR), says:

Heb 1:9 KJB Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Heb 1:9 GNTTR ηγαπησας δικαιοσυνην και εμισησας ανομιαν δια τουτο εχρισεν σε ο θεος ο θεος σου ελαιον αγαλλιασεως παρα τους μετοχους σου

As far as I am aware, the vast majority of koine Greek texts, state the same (excluding Tischendorf's 8th Ed.).



So the text, in English, or even koine Greek, does not read, "God, your God, anointed you.", but rather "ο θεος ο θεος σου", which in the KJB English simply says, "therefore God, even thy God", acknowledging the definite article by English assumptive.

Do you acknowledge this koine Greek text (GNT TR), or another? If you acknowledge this koine Greek text, do you acknowledge that in this place (Hebrews 1:9) that "the Son" (vs. 8, "τον υιον") is speficially referred to as "ο θεος"?

This is represented by Strong's and Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes as:

ο G3588 T-NSM θεος G2316 N-NSM

Now, in John 1:1, we read that the Father is identified as:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

"τον θεον", and is identified as:

τον G3588 T-ASM θεον G2316 N-ASM

So the two koine Greek words [G3588], being the definite article (usually "the'), and [G2316], being the word for "God" are the exact same, with the one exception that in Hebrews 1:9, the definite article is simply a "nominative", and in John 1:1, an "accusative".

Do you agree with this material? if not, where not, and why? Thank you.
 
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Adventageous

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Perhaps we are confusing “opinions” and “beliefs” here.....what I post is my opinion based on my own studies in the scriptures. These are my beliefs and are held in common with all in my brotherhood, with no disagreement or dissension as 1 Cor 1:10 clearly states should be the norm in genuine Christianity, as it was taught in the first century. Jesus’ teachings were passed along to others by the apostles after his death, but there was a warning that men would creep in and redirect the thinking of many, and lead them away from Christ and in turn away from the true God, Jehovah. This apostasy was beginning even way back at the end of the first century.....but Christendom denies that it ever happened because every one of their doctrines was based on what “the church” became, not on what Christ established.

I have to go and attend to some things right now but will respond later as I want to address these scriptures and discuss them with you.....these are important questions.

I’ll be back later.....
I have not confused anything at this point, but asked clarifying questions based upon your own personal replies. Therefore, if I may ask, politely, with charity, and with respect to your response, that I (personally) may not be included in the "we are confusing".

Yes, I agree that "opinion" and "belief", "based upon my own studies in the scriptures" can be different things, but I was not the one who wrote as a byline, in signature, "What I post is my opinion only."

If you meant "belief" I think it would have been more clear if you had written, "What I post is my belief based upon my own studies in the scriptures."

However, even that statement is still not necessarily stating that what you post is "truth", and could (possibly) still undermine everything you write. In other words, even with the stronger, or more clearly stated, sentence, it still leans towards "opinion", even if it may be differing slightly or greatly, or what 'you' think, rather than what is actually truth. The two may sometimes conincide, but yet, not always.

I have plenty of things that I believe based upon my personal study of the scriptures, but does that make everything that I believe based upon the study of the scriptures, truth? No. I just provided an example previously on John the Baptist and the special resurrection. I have studied it deeply from scripture, and have a prayerful thought/belief about it, but I do not ever say it is actually true/truth, because I cannot demonstrate it in perfect clarity or totality from those same scriptures. My belief based upon my personal studty of the scriptures on that subject is held in a different light than the clear statements of:

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Those two statements are true/truth. The other thing about what I believe about John the Baptist is merely my "biblical opinion", "based upon my personal study in the scriptures".

Do you see what I am getting at?

As for what Jesus taught, do you (personally) acknowledge John 10:11,14 as true? If you do, do you think that is your opinion, belief, or is it truth whether you (yourself) had stated it to be so, acknowledge it so, or not?

You see John 10:11,14 is true, whether I say so, believe so, teach so, or not.

Do you see the difference I am attempting to share here?

I believe there is tremendous apostasy (Acts 20:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 18:2), not because I believe so, or even say so, but because scripture, the Bible (KJB), says so, and what it says is truth, irrespective of my existence.

A question then might be, How do we (you and I) identify what is apostasy, from what (standard of truth), and how is this word defined?

Please take your time, no need to rush our dialogue. I would much rather prefer you read prayerfull, carefully, what I say, and think on it, and then response in due (proper) time.
 
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Dropship

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Incidentally I wish CyB members would be able to tell us in their profiles what denomination, cult or sect they belong to, then we'd know what their beliefs and comments are based on..:)
(I'm non-denom myself)
PS-I think Aunty J is a JW?
 
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Adventageous

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Incidentally I wish CyB members would be able to tell us in their profiles what denomination, cult or sect they belong to, then we'd know what their beliefs and comments are based on..:)
(I'm non-denom myself)
PS-I think Aunty J is a JW?
I personally don't care about that (no offense though if you think differently). I base my judgment upon what the individual says at present during the conversation, rather than on their denominational 't-shirt' or 'standard flag'. I think identifying persons belief system is as much a hindrance as it is beneficial depending on who one is speaking with. In some instances it only leads to a pre-rendered bias, hatred, bigotry and stopping of ears, and in others it leads to helpful understanding, bridges, commonalities and honest inquiry. I find, personally, that it often leads to commnication breakdown, rather than communication build up, but that may not be everyone's experience. This comment is simply my personal experiential opinion.

If Aunty Jane is of the WTS/JW or similar, it is not personally relevant to myself, nor if she ever states such. I am interested in the person [Aunty Jane] before me, and what she, of herself, says.
 

Dropship

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I think identifying persons belief system is as much a hindrance as it is beneficial depending on who one is speaking with...

Ah, but what if for example a satanist or any other jesus-rejecter or oddball cultist slips in here to spout his/her propaganda?
Personally I stick to the Bible's instructions that we shouldn't even waste our time talking to them..:)

"Ungodly men have slipped in among you" (Jude 4:4)
"They want to win you over and alienate you from us" (Gal 4:17)
"What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?..Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord, I will be a Father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters" (2 Cor 6:14-18 )
"Withdraw from disorderly unbelievers" (2 Thess 3:6)
"Keep away from profane babblers" (1 Tim 6:20/21)

"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" (Proverbs 23:9)
"He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm" (Provs 13:20)

"If you hang around with losers you become a loser"- Donald Trump


In short I find jesus-rejecters just plain-

 
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Adventageous

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Ah, but what if for example a satanist or any other jesus-rejecter or oddball cultist slips in here to spout his/her propaganda?
So?

Act_17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.​
Act_18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.​
Act_19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.​

I am not afraid of propaganda on a PUBLIC platform, and as such, should be PUBLICALLY refuted where needful, not manhandled and banned simply because they believe/teach different.

In fact, on my own Discord, here is my only rules:

"1a. If you ARE a Christian,​
[A.] Love JEHOVAH Elohiym, God Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB - And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​
1b. If you ARE or ARE NOT a Christian,​
[B.] Love your Neighbour, Leviticus 19:17 KJB Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Leviticus 19:18 KJB Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​
If I, or a delegated Mod, ask you to tone it down, please do so (take a break (pray if you want), and come back). I also don't like profanity in any kind of discussion (text or voice, or UserName), and that especially includes speaking the name of the LORD Jesus Christ in vain. I am not your potty mouth police, per se, but if you cannot have a decent conversation without slinging expletives, you need to re-evaluate your ability to enter into a discussion forum/discourse, and I will ask you in personal contact, only once, to not do so. This is your 1 warning right out of the gate. You get 1 warning more in person, and that's it. I don't really want to ban anyone, but will if I need to.​
Them's the rules.​
As a personal note: As a Seventh-day Adventist, I truly believe people can freely express their positions & views without having to be afraid of what they say. Deal with the evidences. Produce evidences. Ad Hominem, Ad Hoc, Straw-manning, Non-Sequiturs, etc and the other logical fallacies are all not worth much." - Discord - A New Way to Chat with Friends & Communities

If it were a PRIVATE congregation there would be recourse, after hearing their original issue of course (Proverbs 18:13,17), and judging it by God's word (Isaiah 8:20), then they may be safely removed, and treated like a common human being, with firm kindness, love, and personal respect to them as a son/daughter of Adam (first).
 

Aunty Jane

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Ok, but an "opnion" or even "what I [Aunty Jane] post is my biblical opinion" is stil just a personal "opinion" isn't it?
It is what I "believe", based on what I have learned from the Bible. It is my biblical opinion.
I understand that "not all the posters or readers here agree with each other on their "biblical "opinions"".

However, my question was to you specifically, not to others. Even if all the world has "their biblical "opinions"", and you have your "biblical opinion", what good is that to anyone, including yourself, and myself?

I agree, that everyone has "biblical opinions".
Since you are asking me what only God knows, that is difficult to answer. There is only one truth and the "wheat" have it....so who are the "wheat"? We have to find them and allow ourselves to be taught by them. Jesus said he would appoint a "faithful slave" to feed his entire household "their food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45)

Looking back in history we see something obvious....personal opinions count for nothing....so when we accept a belief, it shouldn't be because someone told us something was true....it should be what our own research has "shown" us is true, by comparing scripture to scripture.
I will give an example of one of mine, here.

In the special resurrection (firstfruits resurrection) at the time of Jesus' own resurrection:
You will need to explain this as I have no idea as to what you are referring? What "special resurrection at the time of Jesus own resurrection"?
There was no special resurrection at the time of Jesus' resurrection that I am aware of.
I believe (but have no direct evidence for, from scripture, historical document, or even my own brother's and sister's written materials) that John the Baptist is possibly one of those who was raised from the dead. This statement is just my "biblical opinion", based upon a reasoning from the scriptures, in that those who were raised, had to be local to "Jerusalem", had to be those relatively recently deceased to be able to go into the city and be recognized by those in the city (Matthew 27:53, as evidence of the power of the resurrection of Jesus), and a few other little things like that. Yet, as I said, none of that present belief of mine is proven "fact", nor is it concrete proof or even truth (per se), and I never ever say it dogmatically, nor require anyone else to hold to that belief, though I may share it with those who ask me on the subject.
Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow, Jesus could have raised John the Baptist like he did his friend Lazarus, but there is no mention of such a resurrection. The ones referred to in Matthew 27:53 were not resurrected IMV, because the verse is very obscure and only Matthew reported it....if it had been a "resurrection of the saints" at the time of Jesus death, then what became of them? Such a monumental event would have been mentioned in all the gospels.

Matt 27:51-53...at the moment of Jesus' death.....
"And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
First, whoever “the saints" or "holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were resurrected. He said their bodies, or corpses, were raised. Second, he did not say that these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·geiʹro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matt 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)
There was a great earthquake and upheaval in the earth at the time of Jesus’ death, and tombs were opened, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and in 1962, in Colombia.
"They" (as in the ones who reported this event in the city) are not identified.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matt 27:52-53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, because on the third day after his death, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” (Col 1:18) That would mean that the saints were raised before him. So the scriptures conflict, but only if they are misinterpreted.
(See also 1 Thess 3:13; 4:14-17) Those who are "resurrected first" were not to be raised to life until the time of Christ's "parousia"...his return.

So the question I asked you about the difference between your "opinion", or even "biblical opinion", and actual Truth is where I would like to discuss a bit more if you would please.
I like to allow the Bible to answer my questions.....and it can only do that if we have a complete understanding of the big picture.
The Bible does not contradict itself....it is men who contradict the Bible.
So, while the above is "opinion", do you accept the Bible as Truth, over your, my or others opinion, even if it is "biblical opinion"?

For instance, Do you accept the following to be true? Jesus is the "good shepherd"?

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

I am not asking for your opinion. I am asking if you accept those two statements to be true, no matter what anyone else, including yourself, may later believe about those two statements (ie. change your mind).

You see, those two statements are true, whether you, I, or anyone else on this world believe them, or accept them, to be truth. Truth, is eternal, unchanging, unyielding, and does not require myself to believe or accept it, or even acknowledge it. It is true because it is true. Truth is self-sustaining, self-defining, self-existing, and eternal.

An opinion (like what I stated about John the Baptist) might be true, but not necessarily. An opinion can be held in good (clean) conscience, and yet still be in error, or not actually true. If I find, that I am wrong, later, based upon greater evidence, I will simply drop my "opinion" and accept what is true. Does this make sense?
Yes, completely...it is what I did myself. There are Bible facts and there are Bible principles and statements that can be ambiguous.
The entire Bible was written by Jews, from a Jewish perspective....it helps to remember that when "the church" puts a pagan spin on Jewish scripture.

I will get to your other posts as I have time....
 

Adventageous

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You will need to explain this as I have no idea as to what you are referring? What "special resurrection at the time of Jesus own resurrection"?
There was no special resurrection at the time of Jesus' resurrection that I am aware of.
Here:

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.​
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;​
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,​
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.​

This was foretold:

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​
Psa 68:8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.​
Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.​
Psa 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.​
Psa 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.​

The NT corrborates:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.​
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?​
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)​
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.​
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

See: Matthew 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isaiah 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4); Psalms 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Genesis 3:15); compare Psalms 68:18 to Ephesians 4:8-10; Compare Leviticus 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Corinthians 15:21-23. See also Psalms 24:1-10 (Triumphal Entry with Victory Train into New Jerusalem above), with Psalms 98:1-3; Colossians 2:15. See also Acts 1.
 

Adventageous

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if it had been a "resurrection of the saints" at the time of Jesus death, then what became of them?
They were taken back to Heaven, with Jesus, in his ascension. Psalms 24, 1 Corinthians 15; Ephesians 4:8, and previously connecting verses. It is a type of the resurrections to come. The "captivity" were those in the bonds of death (grave). He led "captivity" "captive" (taken back with Him).
 

Adventageous

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only Matthew reported it
And? Matthew reported something not true? Every other event is a natural (literal) event in the context. He reported what he knew (by inspiration of the Holy Spirit/Ghost), and in fulfillment of prophecy, such as Isaiah 26:19, just as Paul repeats in Ephesians 4:8; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, citing Psalms 68:8,18-20.

So Matthew and Paul report it, just as Isaiah and the Psalmist did before them.

If I might ask you, What were the names of the two who opposed ("withstood") Moses?
 
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Adventageous

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Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow,
The statment incorrect, and only your opinion. However, the scripture is clear on the matter that Enoch, Elijah and Moses all entered Heaven before Jesus was resurrected from the grave.

Cases of Translation (Taken alive without experiencing death) in Scripture to consider:

OT:


[01.] Enoch - Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5
[02.] Elijah - 2 Kings 2:1-12

Cases of Resurrections and Taken to Heaven in the OT.

OT:


[01.] Moses by The Son of God (aka Jesus/Michael, the eternal unCreated and Highest Angel (Messenger) of the LORD (Father) - Numbers 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deuteronomy 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Samuel 2:6; Matthew 22:32; John 11:25-26; Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9

More on Elijah:

In 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 a "Jehoram" had become King of Judah two years before another King "Jehoram" became King of Israel.

We read later in 2 Kings 2:11, wherein the "Jehoram of Israel" was reigning that then Elijah ascended up into Heaven.

Let us consider the texts and notice that the Bible gives no specific date for Elijah's translation in the Heavens. We can know that it happened at some place during the reign of King "Jehoram Of Israel". Yet, it was the King "Jehoram of Judah" who received the letter from Elijah, and he had already been reigning two years before the King "Jehoram of Israel" came on the scene. Elijah wrote the letter to the King "Jehoram of Judah" before his ascension at 2 Kings 2:11.

Additionally, as a final thought, it is also possible (though the first explanation from scripture is where I stand) Elijah can write a letter while on earth, and after he has been taken up into Heaven, have that letter sent (post being taken up) by Elisha or another son of the prophets to the king. Elijah doesn't have to be around to have sent the letter which he wrote earlier. Time capsules work this way, in which messages are left behind, and others find them. It would be like getting Paul's or Peter's last epistle from them (mail is slower in their days, man walking, horse, donkey, camel or pigeon, etc), after they were dead and buried.

In 2 Chronicles 21:19 let us consider that the King "Jehoram of Judah" was already in dire straits two years before he died horribly in the 8th year of his reign. By this we can Biblically conclude that Elijah's Letter and also his Translation into the Heavens happened between the King "Jehoram of Judah's" 2nd to 6th year of reign.

Kings of Israel & Judah



We may also consider the ramifications of Elijah ascending and being "taken from" Elisha. Elisha then asks for a "double portion" of the very Holy Spirit that was upon Elijah himself. If Elijah was to merely return [back to earth for a longer stay] why all of the scene? Afterall Elisha would not leave Elijah for anything...if Elijah came back down to earth then, Elisha would have ran unto him [Elijah] no matter what land he be in ["I will not leave thee" was always his [Elisha's] phrase], for news would have spread abroad at that. Yet we know from the scriptures that Elisha ["saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.", the very symbol of anguish, mourning and heartache, over someone they would never see again in this world.]

Elisha knew that Elijah could never be found on earth again (and didn't even want the sons of the prophets to go look for him on earth), after being "taken (caught) him up" (2 Kings 2:16), "went up", into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "taken from thee" (2 Kings 2:10), "taken away from thee" (2 Kings 2:9), "take away" (2 Kings 2:5), "take away" (2 Kings 2:3), "take up", "into Heaven" (2 Kings 2:1):

Consider the same words:

Act_1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:​
Act_1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.​

We can know by the words of Elisha to the Prophets that wanted to search for Elijah on earth, but he knew where Elijah had been taken, for he himself had seen it ["into Heaven"], "And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send." [Elisha said, "Ye shall not send."] It was only after the begged and pleaded until he was embarrassed that he let them go look. And when they came back from their searching, Elisha said, "Did I not say unto you, Go not?", for Elisha knew Elijah was taken up "into Heaven" and was not coming back.

Are we not to believe the scriptures in what they plainly say? Or shall we be as the little children who mocked at the idea of Elijah ascending into Heaven and taunted Elisha...

"... there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

Also consider the typology of the 2nd Advent that becomes ruined if Elijah ever died. He represents all of the righteous people who will be living at the 2nd Advent and "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." So if Elijah does not actually get taken into Heaven [where GOD dwells] but rather only floats around in the air for some time before being set down 'upon some mountain' on earth somewhere and later dies, the 2nd Advent presents absolutely no case for anyone to go up either. Type and antitype are parallel.

I will share on Hebrews 11, and John 3 in a moment.
 

Adventageous

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Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow,
Enoch went to Heaven (3rd), for God (Jesus) took him, and he was no longer found on earth.

Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35).

Therefore since Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 say that Enoch was "translated" so that "he should not see (experience) death", and he "walked with God" and "he was not" (found on earth again, context), he was taken to Heaven (3rd), then John 3 cannot contradict those verses, or teach an opposing understanding. We must read John 3, in it's proper context, and Enoch (and/or Elijah), is not a part of that context.

Consider the context of John 3. Jesus is not saying that no one (person, human) had gone up to Heaven. Read the whole sentence, carefully, in the context of the sentences before and after it.

Consider the context of the verse cited please. Jesus did not say in John 3 that no one entered Heaven. He is speaking to Nicodemus, about being born again from Heaven, and about the doctrine/practice of Heaven itself. The context of the verse shows that Jesus is speaking about that no one went up to Heaven to obtain the doctrine (and way of Life) and return, but instead it took an act of God, to descend from Heaven to bring with Him the doctrines/practices of Heaven. In other words, it took the condescension of God to uplift fallen mankind, and elevate them.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?​

You see, the Son of Man (Jesus) came down from Heaven at the behest of the Father, and by His own will in 'Amening' the Father, and brought with Him the ways of Heaven, of which carnal and earthly man could never have known on their own, for their hearts always tended downward, never upward. The earthly and carnal man could not even conceive of Heavenly things, unless Christ Jesus came down to tell them of it and show it to them in word and in deed.

Enoch, Moses and Elijah all were in Heaven (3rd) already, as scripture declares (cited previously).

Most people incorrectly think it reads, "No man hath ascended up to heaven.(period)"

But that is a misreading or misquotation of the text. It is taken out of context, and ignores the previous sentences, along with the connecting "kai" (and; vs 13), and the fact that there is no period after "Heaven", but instead a continuing thought that connects to the previous verses. Look again please.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?​
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.​

Here is the koine Greek, as needful:

John 3:12 ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε​
John 3:13 και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου ο ων εν τω ουρανω​

The "kai" completes the thought from vs 12, which continued from vss 1-11, for instance, "no man can do these miracles (which originate from Heaven" (vs 2), "born again", "kingdom of God" (vs 3), "born again", "Spirit", "kingdom of God" (vs 5), "born of the Spirit" (vs 6), "born again" (vs 7), "the wind", "born of the Spirit" (vs 8), "How can these things be?" (vs 9), "these things" (vs 10), "we speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness (of Heavenly things)" (vs 11), "heavenly things" (vs 12), "eternal life" (vs 15) and further on into vss 16-21.

Read the context. He (Jesus) was talking about His spirit/mind/heart and where it always dwelled in (heavenly things, see vs 11), not His physical body/person, which was sitting right there with Nicodemus. It was a contrast of the carnal (Nicodemus) mind (vs 4) to Jesus' own mind (which is always dwelling on His Father in Heaven, always dwelling upon doing His Father's will in Heaven).

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

Thus the "we" speak. This refers to Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the context, the Two (Great) Witnesses of the Father, which came from Heaven.

See also:

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.​
Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.​
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:​
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.​
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:​
Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.​

The entire context is not about anyone not simply entering Heaven. The entire context is about Heavenly "things", and that no man (no one) went up to heaven to obtain those things and bring them back down (for the carnal mind could not even conceive of Heavenly things) , but rather, God (the Father, vs 16) sent the Son from Heaven, and He descended with those things for mankind who needed them, and could obtain them no other way and could speak about them to Nicodemus.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?​
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)​
 

Adventageous

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Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow
What about Hebrews 11, Enoch died, and “these all died”?

Actually, contextually, No.

Paul in saying, that "these all died" refer to those he specifically says died (such as Hebrews 11:4, "being yet dead"), and the immediate context of vs 12, whom the pronoun "these" refer back to, as being "so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable", and (vs 15) "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out" (the Israelites). The "all", is exclusive of Enoch, who Paul says specifically, "he should not see death". The context even goes on again (reiterating) from Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob/Israel, to Joseph, to the Israelites in Egypt.

The Jews, who kept the "oracles of God", believed that Elijah was in Heaven (along with Enoch and Moses).
Matthew 27:49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.​
Mark 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.​
Mark 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.​

The disciples believed that Elijah and Moses were in Heaven, in glory:
Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:​
Luke 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.​
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.​

Elisha knew that Elijah could never be found on earth again (and didn't even want the sons of the prophets to go look for him on earth), after being "taken (caught) him up" (2 Kings 2:16), "went up", into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "taken from thee" (2 Kings 2:10), "taken away from thee" (2 Kings 2:9), "take away" (2 Kings 2:5), "take away" (2 Kings 2:3), "take up", "into Heaven" (2 Kings 2:1):

Consider the same words:

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:​
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.​
 
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