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GracePeace

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I would like to discuss Baptismal Regeneration here.
 
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Randy Kluth

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1) I don't believe the Bible teaches Baptismal Regeneration. The idea originates from a misinterpretation from 1 Peter...

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter is, I believe, talking about how water baptism *symbolizes* Christ's Salvation. It is certainly not the ritual, nor the water, that purifies from sin. That would be cleansing the "outside of the cup." Internal cleansing is by the Baptism of the Spirit, which John the Baptist said is the superior baptism. It is the Spirit Baptism that unites us with Christ spiritually, and enables us to participate in Christ's virtues, through the Spirit.

2) Justification by Faith is Luther's slightly distorted view of Salvation. It is correct, for the most part, but does not adequately represent the role our own actions play in our justification. We are not justified by any work we have done, but what we do justifies our faith as really linked up with Christ. That is, true faith links up with Christ, spiritually, because we not only believe in him, but we believe what he commanded us to do, to accept him as necessary, and to love both God and our neighbor.
 

GracePeace

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1) I don't believe the Bible teaches Baptismal Regeneration. The idea originates from a misinterpretation from 1 Peter...

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter is, I believe, talking about how water baptism *symbolizes* Christ's Salvation. It is certainly not the ritual, nor the water, that purifies from sin. That would be cleansing the "outside of the cup." Internal cleansing is by the Baptism of the Spirit, which John the Baptist said is the superior baptism. It is the Spirit Baptism that unites us with Christ spiritually, and enables us to participate in Christ's virtues, through the Spirit.

2) Justification by Faith is Luther's slightly distorted view of Salvation. It is correct, for the most part, but does not adequately represent the role our own actions play in our justification. We are not justified by any work we have done, but what we do justifies our faith as really linked up with Christ. That is, true faith links up with Christ, spiritually, because we not only believe in him, but we believe what he commanded us to do, to accept him as necessary, and to love both God and our neighbor.
I personally do not know much about baptismal regeneration but I am glad to hear what everyone thinks.
 

GracePeace

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1) I don't believe the Bible teaches Baptismal Regeneration. The idea originates from a misinterpretation from 1 Peter...

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter is, I believe, talking about how water baptism *symbolizes* Christ's Salvation. It is certainly not the ritual, nor the water, that purifies from sin. That would be cleansing the "outside of the cup." Internal cleansing is by the Baptism of the Spirit, which John the Baptist said is the superior baptism. It is the Spirit Baptism that unites us with Christ spiritually, and enables us to participate in Christ's virtues, through the Spirit.

2) Justification by Faith is Luther's slightly distorted view of Salvation. It is correct, for the most part, but does not adequately represent the role our own actions play in our justification. We are not justified by any work we have done, but what we do justifies our faith as really linked up with Christ. That is, true faith links up with Christ, spiritually, because we not only believe in him, but we believe what he commanded us to do, to accept him as necessary, and to love both God and our neighbor.
There is a serious problem for the ones who hold to baptismal regeneration in Acts 10, though, because the Spirit fell on the Gentiles while Peter was preaching (which would be "justification by faith in Christ plus nothing"), and Galatians 3-4 teach that God only sends the Spirit into our hearts because we are sons. Clearly, then, they had to already have been sons of God--born of God and infilled with the Spirit, all without water baptism.
 

Randy Kluth

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There is a serious problem for the ones who hold to baptismal regeneration in Acts 10, though, because the Spirit fell on the Gentiles while Peter was preaching (which would be "justification by faith in Christ plus nothing"), and Galatians 3-4 teach that God only sends the Spirit into our hearts because we are sons. Clearly, then, they had to already have been sons of God--born of God and infilled with the Spirit, all without water baptism.

Very true! However, being raised up in Protestant Theology, my biggest bone to pick with Baptismal Regeneration is that Jesus said the work we are to do is to believe in him. In following Jesus' example and his commandments, we do what pleases God for eternal life. It is not in anything we do apart from Christ that justifies us.

Even so, not even all we do in Christ is sufficient to save us. It is only by believing in what he did for us, in legally paying for our sins, that enables us to be saved and to receive eternal life.

The idea of doing rituals to be saved is the opposite of what Paul taught. If works of the Law did not save anybody, then neither does performing religious rituals save us.

It is only in believing in what Christ did for us, and then receiving his new life, that enables us to prove our faith by exercising that new life. If we do not actually do what he says, our faith in not authentic, and our so-called "faith" does not obtain eternal life.

If we truly believe his works covered our sins, then we will repent of our sins by living the new life he gives us in accordance with our faith. If we believe he died for our sins, we will show our faith by repenting of the sins he died to forgive. If we refuse to embrace his new life, we are not showing any repentance, but instead are trying to self-justify by doing good apart from Christ.

Water Baptism is not the key to new life in Christ--it only symbolizes it. And it also provides a public testimony to show others the choice we have made. Christ recommended it to new converts, and to those who had been living in sins. It is not a requirement for salvation, but something that sinners should do to show, publicly, that they've repented and have accepted Christ's new life.
 

GracePeace

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Very true! However, being raised up in Protestant Theology, my biggest bone to pick with Baptismal Regeneration is that Jesus said the work we are to do is to believe in him. In following Jesus' example and his commandments, we do what pleases God for eternal life. It is not in anything we do apart from Christ that justifies us.

Even so, not even all we do in Christ is sufficient to save us. It is only by believing in what he did for us, in legally paying for our sins, that enables us to be saved and to receive eternal life. The idea of doing rituals to be saved is the opposite of what Paul taught. If works of the Law did not save anybody, then neither does performing religious rituals save us.

It is only in believing in what Christ did for us, and then receiving his new life, that enables us to prove our faith by exercising that new life. If we do not actually do what he says, our faith in not authentic, and our so-called "faith" does not obtain eternal life.

Water Baptism is not the key to new life in Christ--it only symbolizes it. And it also provides a public testimony to show others the choice we have made. Christ recommended it to new converts, and to those who had been living in sins. It is not a requirement for salvation, but something that sinners should do to show, publicly, that they've repented and have accepted Christ's new life.
What about when Paul mentions "having been buried with him in baptism" in Colossians 2 and "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death" in Romans 6? Is it possible he doesn't mean "baptism was the instrument" but "it was a figure reflective of what was spiritually going on"?
 

Philip James

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1) I don't believe the Bible teaches Baptismal Regeneration. The idea originates from a misinterpretation from 1 Peter...

Hello Randy,

The idea originates from the apostles, and was practiced for years before 1 Peter was written..

Your unbelief is noted.

Peace be with you!
 
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GracePeace

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Hello Randy,

The idea originates from the apostles, and was practiced for years before 1 Peter was written..

Your unbelief is noted.

Peace be with you!
If you really think he is an apostate or heretic, I don't think you're allowed to either greet him or wish peace on him.

Matthew 10
13If the house is worthy, see that your blessing of peace comes upon it. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.

2 John 1
9[a]Anyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not [c]give him a greeting; 11for the one who [d]gives him a greeting [e]participates in his evil deeds.
 

GracePeace

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Here's a good debate on it. LOL It's 4 hours long.
Enjoy!

I thought both sides had good points but that baptismal regeneration lost out.
 

Illuminator

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Baptism by water is normative, but there is also baptism by desire (thief of the cross and the Chinese prison scenario) and baptism by blood (martyrdom). Water, desire and blood all have the same essence of baptism. Neither side articulates this very well.
 
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Mungo

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There is a serious problem for the ones who hold to baptismal regeneration in Acts 10, though, because the Spirit fell on the Gentiles while Peter was preaching (which would be "justification by faith in Christ plus nothing"), and Galatians 3-4 teach that God only sends the Spirit into our hearts because we are sons. Clearly, then, they had to already have been sons of God--born of God and infilled with the Spirit, all without water baptism.

As you said scripture says the Spirit fell upon the gentiles not within them.
The Spirit would not be within them until they were baptised. (in water).

Moreover Cornelius and his household were not just any old gentiles. They were God fearers (vs 2). They kept the Jewish prayer times (vs 3 & 30). They were already acceptable to God(vs 4 & 31). This is fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17, to pour out his Spirit on all flesh - i.e. Jews and Gentiles.
The Spirit was poured out on Jews at Pentecost (Acts 2) and now upon Gentiles (Acts 10).
Cornelius was told to send for Peter and wanted to hear all that God God had commanded Peter (Acts 10:33)
Peter had been commanded to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mk 16:15) which he was doing in Acts 10:34-43. He was also told to baptise "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19). And Jesus had promised the apostles "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).
It is in baptism (in water) that the Spirit regenerates us (Titus 3:5) "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"
 

Illuminator

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There is a serious problem for the ones who hold to baptismal regeneration in Acts 10, though, because the Spirit fell on the Gentiles while Peter was preaching (which would be "justification by faith in Christ plus nothing"), and Galatians 3-4 teach that God only sends the Spirit into our hearts because we are sons. Clearly, then, they had to already have been sons of God--born of God and infilled with the Spirit, all without water baptism.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


The only "serious problem" with Acts 10 exists only in your mind.
 

Mungo

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1) I don't believe the Bible teaches Baptismal Regeneration. The idea originates from a misinterpretation from 1 Peter...

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter is, I believe, talking about how water baptism *symbolizes* Christ's Salvation. It is certainly not the ritual, nor the water, that purifies from sin. That would be cleansing the "outside of the cup."
Water baptism symbolises the death and resurrection of Christ (Col 2:12 & Rom 6:2-4). But Peter clearly says that baptism saves us. That is because it is in baptism that we are saved and regenerated by the Holy Spirit "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). The NAB has a more literal translation "he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit".

Internal cleansing is by the Baptism of the Spirit, which John the Baptist said is the superior baptism. It is the Spirit Baptism that unites us with Christ spiritually, and enables us to participate in Christ's virtues, through the Spirit.
No it is not. The so-called "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is an external action not internal.
 

Illuminator

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Matt. 28:19-20 – Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 – Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 – there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 – Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 – unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 – if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 – these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 – Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Rom. 6:4 – in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 – Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 – whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 – in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

Acts 22:16 – further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 – in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 – Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 – whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 – in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5:
(1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us.
(2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing.
(3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 – in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 – Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21:
(1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us.
(2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism.
(3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior).

Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 – the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 – there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 – Jesus says “are you able…to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?,” referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 – Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM - Scripture Catholic
 
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Randy Kluth

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Water baptism symbolises the death and resurrection of Christ (Col 2:12 & Rom 6:2-4). But Peter clearly says that baptism saves us. That is because it is in baptism that we are saved and regenerated by the Holy Spirit "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). The NAB has a more literal translation "he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit".

No, the ritual of Water Baptism does *not* save us! You are reading it wrong, and apparently don't understand the nuances of language in this respect. It is one of those occasions where the context obviously suggests that Peter is utilizing a "manner of speaking."

It's like an abbreviated form of saying, "Water Baptism saves us *in a manner of speaking.* It merely depicts how we are cleansed from our sins by our faith in what Christ did." We are playing out the scenario in symbolic terms to show how we got saved.

It is not getting Water Baptized that saves us, but rather, it is the thing that Water Baptism represents that saves us. It is an abbreviated form of saying Christ saves us, while expressing our faith in what Christ did through Water Baptism.

There are many such literary tools that allow us to shorten our sentences, to save energy. It is expected that we understand this when otherwise it would make no sense.

In NT theology it would make no sense to say that performing rituals save us when we already know that *only the works of Christ* saved us! What we do, namely our "works," cannot save us. This we know.

So Peter is only suggesting that it is our depiction of Christ's works that saves us. He can't be saying that our own works is saving us!

We are not still "getting saved" when we perform Water Baptism, because we've already *been saved.* It only appears as if we're still "getting saved" because in Water Baptism we're depicting what we already received.

No it is not. The so-called "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is an external action not internal.

On the contrary, physical works are external. Conversion is internal.
 

Enoch111

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I personally do not know much about baptismal regeneration but I am glad to hear what everyone thinks.
If you want to get a good handle on this, kindly study the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It teaches baptismal regeneration. I believe Justin Martyr may have started this ball rolling. They sum it up thus:
1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Hello Randy,

The idea originates from the apostles, and was practiced for years before 1 Peter was written..

Your unbelief is noted.

Peace be with you!

Right, I don't believe that Baptismal Regeneration was ever taught in the Early Church in the way you are applying it today. That would be a form of Salvation by Works, an offshoot of Pelagianism.