Believers stay righteous through their obedience

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Zachary

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We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands!
Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!


“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)


Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience

“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God … so that none of you
will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)

If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with
“an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12).

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

Slaves of obedience > eternal life ........... Slaves of sin > eternal death

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”

(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria,
and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian
church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)

“Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised
to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
The “crown of life” means eternal life.

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)


“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)


“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)

“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.”
(Revelation 2:26)

The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)


“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)
“If you love Me, obey My commandments.” (John 14:15)
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them are
the ones who love Me … All who love Me will do what I say.
Anyone who doesn’t love Me will not obey Me.” (John 14:21-24)
“When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love” (John 15:10)
“You are My friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
“We can be sure we know Him, if we obey His commandments” (1 John 2:3)
“He who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him” (1 John 3:24)
“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love” (1 John 3:24)
“Loving God means keeping His commandments” (1 John 5:3)
“Love means doing what God has commanded us” (2 John 6)
Even though OT people had none of our advantages, God said He would show
mercy “to those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Exodus 20:6)
.
 
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justbyfaith

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“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)

You have obviously misquoted these verses.

Heb 4:3, For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:7, Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

Again, these verses are misquoted...nowhere in their context does it say that if we disobey God, we will fall.

Which is not to say that those who are born again of the Holy Spirit will disobey God. We are not inclined towards disobedience...and if anyone is inclined towards disobedience, and disobeys the Lord, they ought to question whether they are really saved...while the sin of the born again believer is underneath the blood; and the born again believer is normally inclined towards obedience.

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

Slaves of obedience > eternal life ........... Slaves of sin > eternal death

And the issue here is "who is your Master/Lord?" When we place our faith in Jesus Christ, we receive Him as our Lord...and we obey Him because we love Him. Our relationship of servant to Master is based on love, not requirement (see Psalms 110:3). And these verses also don't teach salvation by works. The works that result out of being a slave of righteousness is not what saves...rather it is the change in attitude, making us into slaves (more accurately, sons) of righteousness, that saves us. Faith in Jesus Christ has to do with receiving Him as Lord...and this is an attitude that produces works. However it is not the works that saves us but the attitude of faith, that saves us.

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”

(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria,
and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian
church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)

While this is not from holy scripture and does not even need to be addressed, I will address it.

We obey Jesus' commandments because we love Him; not because they are required of us. It is most certainly true that if we don't obey Him, it is evidence that we are not born again. But we are not born again through obedience to any of His commandments (Titus 3:5, Romans 11:5-6, Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9); and also, we do not maintain our salvation through obedience but through faith (Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3). Faith produces obedience, no doubt; but we are not saved through the obedience but through the faith.

We have been given an attitude of being inclined towards obedience, and this is what saves us. The obedience itself does not save us. A person can perform many obedient acts, and if they don't have faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross, their obedience will not save them. And neither will a man be saved if he puts any degree of trust in what he does to save himself.

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)

Again misquoted.

Jhn 8:31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Jhn 8:51, Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.


“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

This does not in any way teach that a man is saved through obeying the commandments. A man is saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ...this faith alone amounts to receiving Jesus as Lord...which will result in obedience to the commandments...however the obedience does not save, but the attitude of faith and surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)

Again, misquoted.

2Co 10:5, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

This is saying that as believers it is our practice to bring our thought life into subjection to the obedience of Christ. This is speaking of maintaining an attitude of faith. And again, we obey Jesus because we love Him and not out of a requirement.


“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.”
(Revelation 2:26)

Here the reward for obedience is authority over the nations, not salvation.
 
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justbyfaith

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The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)

Yes, indeed; as the church we obey the Lord. But this is not to say that we maintain our salvation through our obedience. We obey Him because we love Him; and we love Him because we are saved. His love is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost. No one has the Holy Ghost apart from salvation, even faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14). And also, we abide by faith, which produces obedience; not by the obedience itself. We are connected to the vine through faith, and bear fruit as the result of being connected to the vine; but bearing fruit is not the means by which we are connected to the vine. If you meditate on this parable of the vine and branches, I believe that you will see that what we do does not save us; but our salvation affects what we do.

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

We are obedient because we love Jesus; and we love Jesus because He has shed abroad His love in our hearts through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)
“If you love Me, obey My commandments.” (John 14:15)
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them are
the ones who love Me … All who love Me will do what I say.
Anyone who doesn’t love Me will not obey Me.” (John 14:21-24)
“When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love” (John 15:10)
“You are My friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
“We can be sure we know Him, if we obey His commandments” (1 John 2:3)
“He who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him” (1 John 3:24)
“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love” (1 John 3:24)
“Loving God means keeping His commandments” (1 John 5:3)
“Love means doing what God has commanded us” (2 John 6)

Even though OT people had none of our advantages, God said He would show
mercy “to those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Exodus 20:6)

Again, we love Jesus because He has redeemed us; and we maintain this love not through what we do but through simple faith in Him (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

We do not maintain our salvation by anything other than faith.

Rom 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Salvation (the righteousness of the Lord) begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through.

Gal 3:1, O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2, This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3, Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

We begin our walk with Christ in the Spirit (by faith)...we will not be made perfect by the flesh (seeking to save ourselves by what we do).

Col 2:6, As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We received Christ by faith, and are to walk in Him by the same faith...i.e. we are to continue our Christian life by walking by faith and not by sight.

This means that when it comes to what we know is our salvation, we do not transfer over to works as a means of salvation; but we continue to walk by faith alone in Christ alone. Then, He sanctifies us according to that faith...He transforms us by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:1-2), conforming us into the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). We do what we do (good works) because we have been made holy on the inside...it is also important that we clean the inside of the cup and platter and not only the outside. We can only do this by faith; while we can clean the outside simply by fixing our outward behaviour: which does not amount to a regenerated heart.
 
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Windmillcharge

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"Believers stay righteous through their obedience"
Rightousness comes from God.

All we do through our obedience is show our love for Jesus.

We are all sinners saved through Gods amazing, superabundance of grace.
We are kept by that overflowing, unending, unmeasurable love of God.
We need to constantly make use of the forgiveness that avalable to us, if we are prepared to ask for it.
 
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justbyfaith

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Righteousness is imparted to us as a free gift (Romans 5:15-19).

If we hunger and thirst after it, we will be filled (Matthew 5:6).

If we do righteousness, we are righteous; even as He is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Pure, even as He is pure (1 John 3:3).

We walk, even as He walked (1 John 2:6).
 
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Zachary

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You guys have the free will to continue believing the lies
you have been taught through family, friends, churches, etc.
You have been deceived, brainwashed, etc. ... ultimately by Satan,
who is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.

Some humans have the intellectual ability to rationalize away Truth in favor of error.

And I have the free will to continue believing the word of God, i.e. the NT.
It is true that every NT verse I quote does NOT disprove OSAS/eternal security.
But, as usual, the obvious NT proof verses about most topics
can be backed up by many not-so-obvious ones!
.
 
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Zachary

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And pray tell, how do believers become righteous in the first place?
When first saved, BACs receive absolutely everything!
But, as I explained to an ex-pastor friend ...
"You focus on initial salvation, while I focus on maintaining it."

The NT has many dozens of dire warnings about falling away!
But, today's church is so FAST ASLEEP that they ignore/reject these warnings!
Today's church is the Laodicean church that Jesus rejected (Rev 3).

WARNING: Read the NT with an OPEN understanding!
.
 

Zachary

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The JBF: while the sin of the born again believer is underneath the blood

If repented of...
Most here probably consider the repentance of a BAC as a "work".
Ditto for obedience.
And let's not mention practicing righteousness.

Paul talks about "your reasonable service"(Romans 12:1).
Gee, what could that be? ... Belief, faith, trust? ... Naw, sorry!
.
 

justbyfaith

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Most here probably consider the repentance of a BAC as a "work".
Ditto for obedience.
And let's not mention practicing righteousness.
.
None of these are works...all of them are the gift of the Lord to us.
 

Zachary

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We maintain our salvation by faith.
Faith is the #1 thing which must endure until death.
But, true saving faith will produce action, obedience, good works, etc.
These things PROVE that we have true saving faith.

True faith RESULTS in so-called works.
So-called works PROVE true faith.

But, the NT stresses that works by themselves is NOT enough.
It has to be Faith + Works.
.
 

justbyfaith

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Faith is the #1 thing which must endure until death.
But, true saving faith will produce action, obedience, good works, etc.
These things PROVE that we have true saving faith.

True faith RESULTS in so-called works.
So-called works PROVE true faith.

But, the NT stresses that works by themselves is NOT enough.
It has to be Faith + Works.
.
It is not faith + works.

It is by a living faith alone which normally produces works.

Thus, if someone comes to a living and saving faith in Christ (apart from works), and dies two minutes later (no opportunity for any good work), they will go straight to heaven.
 
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Zachary

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BC: Most here probably consider the repentance of a BAC as a "work".
Ditto for obedience. And let's not mention practicing righteousness.

None of these are works...all of them are the gift of the Lord to us.
I'm not wasting any more time with you.
There are a few hopeless cases on every Christian forum.
Some are sent by Satan to make a big mess of things.
.
 

justbyfaith

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I'm not wasting any more time with you.
There are a few hopeless cases on every Christian forum.
Some are sent by Satan to make a big mess of things.
.

Mat 10:25, It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?